PT Question about Clone Army, Sifo-Dyas, and Order 66

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Master Agoraphobia, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3

    except replace "split in 2" with "taken over" or "destroyed"
    it was split in 2 anyway.
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    The money issue actually isn't as big of a stumbling block as it seems, for me at least, because it's very likely that the army itself (although battle ready in AOTC) would not have been nearly as large as it was 3 years later by the end of the war. Palpatine just needed the army to be large enough in order to facilitate the war.

    Then, of course, there's the fact that during those 10 years, Palpatine was Chancellor and is shown in TPM to have quite a bit of sway in the Senate. Given the bloated corruption of the Republic, I can well imagine that over those ten years, he was secretly funneling money from the Republic through Dooku to the Kaminoans. The Kaminoans themselves wouldn't have cared where it came from (they hardly seem to pay that much attention to the going-ons of the Republic considering they think that Sifo Dyas is still alive ten years later). At the same time, it would have made the money incredibly difficult to trace because I doubt that Palpatine was the only one doing this. AOTC makes it a point (through Obi-Wan's dialogue) that there's a lot of money issues in the Republic. And if Palpatine passed it on to Dooku before the war began, the Republic isn't going to have easy access to his accounts, considering he is a Separatist leader.

    At least, that's the way I always understood it. I always thought that Dooku killed Sifo Dyas, posed as him to place the order for the Republic (he probably never even had to meet the Kaminoans in person anyway, since all they seem to be interested in is getting paid) and then recruited Jango. The money, then, would have been coming from Palpatine siphoning off money and perhaps Dooku's own reserves of cash (considering he was a Count, it's likely he has some wealth).
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Dec 18, 2012
  3. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Well sure, but even the money it would have taken to create the army as it was as of Geonosis had to be pretty impressive. Where did it come from?

    And keep in mind, I'm not asking in terms of wanting to know myself (I assume that what you theorized is true), but in terms of what quetions the JEdi should have asked, and that I'm not sure why they didn't.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Since Darth Plagueis was also Hego Demask, a senior member of the Intergalactic Banking Clan, that might have been where Palpatine, his apprentice, was funnelling the money from after his death.

    In Labyrinth of Evil, Yoda alludes to following the money trail "into a maze of deception"- and not being able to trace where it came from beyond that.
  5. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Well yes, but again, these aren;t questions I'm asking, but questions the Jedi should have asked.

    Sure, but Yoda isn't a qualified accountant. What you need is bean-counters. In other words, I grant that finding this out may go beyond the abilities of the Jedi - but did they try finding some qualified people to help them?
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    No idea- but it wouldn't surprise me if they put more effort into it than they're credited for.
    Valairy Scot and ILNP like this.
  7. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    He CAN be proven wrong sure but he never IS proven wrong in the films. Obi-Wan knows the date Sifo-Dyas died and the date the clone army was ordered and reports on this to Mace and Yoda. Neither of them question Obi-Wan on his conclusions or demand to know more. And if Obi-Wan was unsure about the date Sifo-Dyas died it would be simple enough to ask Mace and Yoda about it to confirm his suspicions.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Dec 18, 2012
  8. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    About the money issue.

    If the money could be traced to the Banking Clan, since they are a part of the seps, that makes it very suspect.
    Known separatists are paying for a republic army?
    If the money could in any way be traced to Dooku then same reasoning applies, the leader of the separatists is paying for an army for the Republic.
    If the money can't be traced in any way then that is also suspect. A jedi Master is said to have placed the order, how would he know how to hide a money trail that huge?

    The Kamino people would most likely have demanded lots of money upfront and given that they have worked for ten years they would most likely have gotten additional payments along the way.

    About the size of the clone army. Taun We says that 200 000 clones are ready and a million more is well underway but then says that if the republic needs more then it will take time to grow them. The clones grow at double speed so 8-9 years for a mature clone sounds about right. They had other batches, we see some that were started five years ago. So maybe they could turn out another million or so during the next years but it doesn't sound like they could make 10-20 million in short order. So the clone army is about 1,2 million in AotC and perhaps 3-5 million in RotS.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    My assumption would be that the Kaminoans themselves were still under the impression that Sifo Dyas was paying them which may explain why they believed he was still alive. As for what the Jedi could have looked into, you have to consider that they were fighting a war at the time, a war for which they were unprepared and their biggest lead (Jango) was dead. And if the Kaminoans were being paid in cash or through an anonymous account then there wouldn't be all that much to trace.
  10. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah. Never quite gotten how Sidious, a guy who's literally manipulating an entire galaxy, is going to be stupid enough to have anything even slightly suspicious-looking involved in the financing of the clones.
    ILNP likes this.
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The original plot- with "Sido Dyas" would have been even worse. At least if they can confirm an actual Jedi Master, and not Dooku, was involved, the Jedi lack of suspicion is more understandable.
  12. Darthbane2007 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2007
    star 4
    The one thing I want to know is:

    Does that 200,000 mean the total number of combat-ready clones that could be deployed, with the additional million as well?
  13. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Presumably. Although I tend to hold the opinion that the clones immediately available for combat could probably be more than that-figure the ones created 10, 9, and 8.5 years before AOTC; 17 is the bare minimum you can join most militaries, and the clones have been spending their childhoods training for war, after all. Just the Kaminoans weren't expecting the war to start JUST RIGHT THEN and were taking their time with getting the army as good as possible-200,000 sounds like a pretty good starting point to, say, play in something like the Battle Of Naboo against a pile of battle droids.
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Dec 18, 2012
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Shatterpoint did make a point of the 1.2 million clones being overstretched.
  15. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    "Two hundred thousand units are ready, with another million well on the way."

    Units, not clones. I suspect he's talking about military units, and we don't know how large a unit is.
  16. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, but Shatterpoint is what, a few months after the war starts? Although it's difficult to say now :p

    Edit @Count Yubnub- Per Lucas one unit=one clone.
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Dec 18, 2012
  17. ILNP Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    They do tell him to bring Jango Fett back to the Temple so they can question him about what he knows. Why would they question Obi Wan (who conceivably would have told them everything he's learned as opposed to questioning someone directly involved in the clone army program?
  18. Count Yubnub Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2012
    star 4
    Oh, OK then.
  19. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, per Stover (the author of Shatterpoint) Lucas specifically directed that when Stover asked.
    Count Yubnub likes this.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Did the "quadrillions" or worse "quintillions" figures for number of battle droids have the same pedigree- or can they be put down to overenthusiastic authors? (Curtis Saxton's RoTS Incredible Cross Sections book springs to mind)
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    That's pretty straight from Saxton as far as I'm aware.
  22. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    It seems Lucas wasn't sure on the exact details himself or didn't have time to think them through (wasn't the script for AOTC delivered very late?).
    The Jedi ordering the troops is not unreasonable and even ironic, considering how thing would play out.
    All was needed just a few lines clarifying the situation. Dooku could mentioned he killed Syfo Dyas after instilling in him fear of the growing threat to the Republic and convincing him to place an order.
    Yoda, Mace or Obi-Wan could say they traced the funding to a group of wealthy individuals or companies who were afraid of the Separatist threat (or simply certain entities like Trade Federation growing too powerful and invading other systems like they did on Naboo).
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It also makes the resentment of the Jedi in the Republic Commando books, more justified- they aren't just leading the clones- they actually ordered them.
  24. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
  25. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The earliest source I've seen quoted as mentioning it was Abel G. Pena's The Story of General Grievous: Lord of War.
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