PT Question about Clone Army, Sifo-Dyas, and Order 66

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Master Agoraphobia, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Who resented the Jedi, the public?
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    No- Skirata, Vau, and some of the clones they taught.

    If, from the beginning of their being recruited as clone trainers, they've been under the impression that a Jedi Master ordered the Clone Army, for the Republic, then it's not surprising that they think there's something wrong with the Jedi Order.
  3. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Seems like an EU invention. Granted, we don't see a lot of Jedi - clones interaction in the movies, but Obi-Wan and Cody seem to be buddies. I think the Jedi would have picked up resentment or other negative feelings from the clones they served with every day.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    True- and it's only a small proportion of clones that Skirata spends much time talking to about the horribleness of the Jedi- the Null commandos.

    In The Cestus Deception, it's a military commander rather than a Jedi, who's putting them through hellish, highly lethal training, and it makes a point of how, if they weren't so disciplined, they'd hate him. A Mon Calamari, in fact- one of the few unsympathetic Mon Cal characters.
  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    They would want to question Jango as that could mean they would learn WHO exactly hired him and if he knows who exactly placed the order. They would also want to know who paid him to murder Padme. If they had and assuming Jango talked they would have at least learned that Dooku was the one who hired him to be the clone army template and Dooku was also the one who told him to kill Padme. Wheter Jango knew that this was done for Nute's benefit is unclear.

    They could question Obi-Wan about the exact date when the clone army was ordered to see if that was indeed AFTER Sifo-Dyas death. Or just to get the specifics about what he knows. But they don't. They seem to accept what he says as correct for now.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  6. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    I am not so sure. The original script had the Jedi ask more questions and wonder about the identity of Sido-Dyas and why he or she placed the order. They think that the army was ordered by someone in the republic and this someone wants a war to start. A thought that is echoed by Padme in one deleted scene where she thinks that some of the war mongers in the senate are behind the attempt on her life. These war mongers want her gone so that the army bill can pass.

    Even when Sido-Dyas had become Sifo-Dyas, Jango was hired by a Darth Tyrannus and the Jedi knew this person was a Sith. So they knew that the sith were directly involved in the ordering of the army. That bit is probably good that it was removed eventhough the Jedi could suspect Dooku to be this Tyrannus based on what they know.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  7. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    I'm not opposed to the questioning of the funding, etc. as I think that is a very valid point: above I was merely addressing the fact that some think the use of Jango's clones was in itself suspect. I submit there are far more reasons to suspect something than the mere fact of the genetic donor.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Only until the end of the war.

    He's never proven right either. In the EU we find out that his impression was wrong, and this was not just any EU but a source which received some input from Lucas. So it seems that even in Lucas' mind a few years after the release of AOTC the situation is not as clear as you assume.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 18, 2012
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  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    This is incorrect. In the films at least, the Jedi are never given any indication that Tyrannus was related to the Sith. Jango only tells them that he was recruited by a man called Tyrannus on a moon and the only other person to refer to Tyrannus in all of the PT is Sidious (in private). Jango never even says "Lord" so the Jedi had no way of knowing that Tyrannus had any connection whatsoever to the Sith. There's no real reason to tie Tyrannus to Dooku either.

    The only possible tie that Jango has to Dooku is that he was present at the arena but, again, with Nute Gunray being behind the plot to assassinate Padmé (or, at least, this is what Obi-Wan concludes), the Jedi are going to tie Jango first and foremost to Gunray. And it's not all that implausible that he would work for Gunray given that Padmé is a high-profile target and Jango is a bounty hunter.

    The audience is made aware at the end of AOTC that Dooku and Tyrannus are on in the same, but this isn't a sure thing for the Jedi. As of ROTS, they continue to refer to Dooku as Count.
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  10. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    The point is if they rejected the army, they would have been taken over or destroyed by the seperatists, simple as that

    AKA it was karen travis that resented the jedi
    Last edited by FatSmel, Dec 18, 2012
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  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    star 7
    How do you know that? As far as they knew, if they rejected the army they would not have been able to prevent the splitting of the Republic.
  12. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    The Clone Wars was a total war afaik

    The CIS were basically trying to take over the entire galaxy, they would not have been happy with having the systems that willingly joined them seceding from the republic.
    But if you think deeper into it the point is moot anywhere, considering that Palpatine was actually running both sides lol.
  13. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Obi-Wan reports that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the clone army was ordered. If he is correct then that means that Sifo-Dyas did not order the clone army so someone else did. This Tyrannus could be the one as he was the one who hired Jango. Yes the Jedi don't know any more than the name. BUT they also know that their archives have been tampered with and Kamino removed. It is obvious that this removal is connected with the clone army. If Sifo-Dyas really had ordered the clone army then he could also have done this. But if he was killed before the order then it is unlikely that he had anything to do with the file removal. So since only a Jedi could have deleted the file then that narrows the number of suspects.
    The jedi would know that Jango works for Dooku based on the dialogue that Obi-Wan hears. Nute asks Dooku if Padme is dead yet and says he won't sign the treaty until she is and Dooku responds that he is a man of his word.
    So that makes it clear that Jango works for Dooku, not Nute. Nute is behind the assassination attempt in so far as he is the one who wants Padme dead. So Nute told Dooku this and Dooku in turn put Jango on the job.

    So the clone army template works for Dooku, that the Jedi later find out is now a Sith. Sure it MIGHT be coincidence but in a whole galaxy's worth of bounty hunters and assassins the odds that the same guy would be hired for these two jobs just by chance is microscopic. Dooku also fits the bill as someone who could have deleted the Kamino file.

    In all, there is more than enough for the Jedi to SUSPECT that Dooku is this Tyrannus, a rather Sith sounding name at that. It doesn't 100% prove it but any investigator worth his or her salt would at least consider the possibility.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "I was under the impression that he was killed before that" doesn't show as much certainty as you imply.
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  15. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    Since Obi-Wan had just been scolded by Yoda and told not to assume anything I would think he would be reasonably sure about this, otherwise why bring it up?
    Also you missed the second sentence "If he is correct then that means that Sifo-Dyas did not order the clone army so someone else did." So I acknowledged the possibility that he might be wrong. But the films never prove him wrong.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    That doesn't necessarily mean Sifo Dyas couldn't be behind the clones, even if he was killed before it. On the contrary, the Jedi might very well have concluded that Sifo Dyas got the ball rolling in terms of obtaining the clone army but was killed by someone interfering with the plans. It would then have fallen to his liaison -- Tyrannus -- to get everything in order. That Sifo Dyas may have been killed before the order was placed does not preclude him from being involved. Regardless of whether it was before or after, he was killed around the time the order was placed, which might very well suggest his involvement to the Jedi.

    Not necessarily. They know Tyrannus contacted Jango -- that's it. That's literally everything they know about him. But he could very well have been an intermediary between Sifo Dyas or also have posed as him after Sifo Dyas died, based on what the Jedi know if him. There's no reason to believe that he could have tampered with the Archives.

    If anything, you're ignoring the possibility of a third party's influence in this situation. They could easily come to believe that Dooku was trying to stop Tyrannus, not that they are the same person.

    Here's the thing, though: who says the Jedi never suspect that Dooku may be Tyrannus? The problem is, they have no evidence, and there's too many other possibilities (such as Tyrannus being a third party) that there's no way for them to be sure. Their one lead who could have answered this (Jango) is dead and Dooku himself is not available to them for questioning. Thus, they are left only with possibilities. Sure, they could try to tie this "Tyrannus" to Dooku, but what exactly would they turn up? We only ever see Palpatine refer to Dooku as Tyrannus and Jango mentions him. That's it. It's a dead end (quite literally in the case of Jango).

    Now, normally, that might be enough for the Jedi to suspend whatever they are doing to try to investigate every possible option, but as of AOTC, that's simply not feasible. They're fighting a war -- a galaxy-wide conflict that takes even the highest-ranking Masters off world for weeks/months at a time. Whatever investigation they try to conduct, then, is going to have to be done at the same time as they are trying to defend the Republic. And with so little information about this Tyrannus, they're not going to get far and especially not given the circumstances.

    Also, the decision to use the army is not up to the Jedi -- they have to wait for the Senate to grant Palpatine his new authority, he declares the formation of the Grand Army, and only then do the Jedi head to Kamino to see the clones. Likewise, the decision to refuse the army is not going to be theirs and given the paucity of evidence and the severity of their military crisis, the Senate is not going to rescind use of the clones simply because the same guy who was the template for their clones, ten years later, decided to work for Dooku as a bounty hunter. It's not going to fly. Even if the Jedi believe using the clones could be a trap, to them the options are either to perhaps fall into that trap by using the clones or to almost certainly be overrun/killed by the Separatists.

    I guess my question is simply this: if you had known only what the Jedi did, what would you have done in their place? Would you honestly have refused the clones (even though it likely wasn't your decision in the first place)? Who would you have questioned/investigated regarding Tyrannus/Dooku following the battle on Geonosis?

    I'm asking this because I think people forget that the Jedi aren't privy to all the information the audience is and, what's more, their options were extremely limited at the time. Even Obi-Wan says as much "Without the clones, it would not have been a victory" -- they would never have been able to win the battle or defend the Republic without the clones.
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  17. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    [
    How could the jedi conclude that Sifo-Dyas was behind it if he was killed before the army was even ordered? Did Sifo-Dyas ever suggest that the republic might need an army, did he mention Kamino? Not as far as we know. If they know that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was even placed then that proves the order was placed under a false name. The army was for the republic, not for Sifo-Dyas himself. If this Tyrannus is someone that Sifo-Dyas knows and Sifo-Dyas told him about his intent to order the clone army but was killed before doing it. If this Tyrannus went ahead with the order, why didn't he simply use his own name when placing the order? The Kamino will work for anyone that can afford it so it is not like a Jedi was needed to place the order. Tyrannus could have gone there himself and placed the order.
    So no, if Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered then that is proof positive that the army was ordered under a false name.


    If Sifo-Dyas was dead when the order was placed then it follows that someone else did. This Tyrannus is a possible lead as he was the one who hired Jango.
    It could be another person sure but this person is obviously connected with Tyrannus as he hired the template.
    BUT combined with their archives being tampered with, something only a Jedi could have done, if this Tyrannus is just some guy then he couldn't have done this. So either this Tyrannus is working with another Jedi, not Sifo-Dyas, or one who was a Jedi ten years ago when the order was placed or he IS a current or former Jedi. Dooku sure fits the bill here.

    Also why would the Jedi think that Dooku were trying to stop this Tyrannus? If Dooku was the one who removed the file but wasn't involved with the placing of the order, why did he do this? The file being removed won't stop the army from being made and the Kamino people could have contacted the Jedi or the Senate at anytime to tell them their army was ready. None of the Jedi seemed to have heard about Kamino so it isn't like they went there often. And why would removing the file stop anyone from going there? Do the Jedi just sit around and pick planets at random and go "Oh Kamino, I haven't been there, lets go visit."
    If Dooku found out about the clone army and wanted to stop it, then just inform the senate. Given that the senate can't even agree to make an army when they are about to be attacked, it is VERY unlikely that they would tolerate an army getting made long before there was a seps threat. What would most likely happen is that the Senate would order the army scrapped, the Jedi would face some serious questions why one of their number was involved in thisand the kamino would probably get a little angry at the wasted time and money.




    This has been talked about before and several people have argued that the Jedi absolutely will NOT even consider the possibility that Dooku is this Tyrannus. That they have no reason what so ever to think that Dooku might be connected to the clone army.
    My argument is first and foremost that the Jedi have enough reason to SUSPECT that Dooku is this Tyrannus. If you agree then good.

    They have some evidence, that Jango worked for Dooku is one. Yes it might be unrelated but in a whole galaxy of assassins, you better have good reason to discount that possibility. The other is that only a Jedi could have deleted with the Kamino file. If all current active Jedi are out then only a former Jedi is possible. Dooku is one. In the films we have no idea if there are other former Jedi out there.
    One way to tie Dooku to Tyrannus is to go to the Kamino people and show them a photo of Sifo-Dyas and ask, is this the one who ordered the clone army?
    If they say no then they could show a photo of Dooku and if the Kamino say "Yes, that's him." then they have solid evidence.
    They could also try and find out exactly who deleted the Kamino file, if they do and it was Dooku then that too is evidence.
    Checking the dates is also a good idea, when exactly did Sifo-Dyas die, when exactly was the clone army ordered and when exactly did Dooku leave the order?

    You forget that after Obi-Wan had reported to Mace and Yoda about the clone army, they had some time. War had not yet broken out and Obi-Wan was going after Jango but they could have sent another Jedi to question the Kamino people or one of them could have gone.


    Simply refusing would not be wise, they have to play along for now. But they could have kept the clone army at arms length. Limited the number of Jedi that served with the clones, they could also have de-centralized somewhat. They have a big temple where many Jedi are. That is one big target. If they move some of their people away from Coruscant and create smaller bases in more remote areas of the galaxy then they are less vulnerable to an attack.
    Who I would have questioned? The Kamino for starters, as I mentioned earlier. Then try to trace the money, see where it goes. Then dig into the Jedi archives and see what can be learned when the file was removed and possibly by whom. Young Boba Fett, if they could catch him, could also provide some info.
    They could also try and get some senators on their side, to take the pulse of the senate so to speak. Find out what is going on. If the clone army was funded with money from the senate they could try and find out from where.
    This wasn't part of your question but between TPM and AotC, had I been the Jedi I would have questioned Nute Gunray and the TF very closely about his dealings with the Sith. If they could find Mauls ship on Naboo then that too is a good place to start.

    Bottomline, being aware that there might be a trap is the first step in trying to avoid it. But many of the questions from AotC are just ignored in RotS and I got the sense that the Jedi just used the clone army, no questions asked and they got totally suprised when the clone army turned on them.
    Sorry to say but that made the jedi look clueless and that greatly weakened the drama to me.
    Some mention in RotS about what they had found out in three years, confirmation that it really was Sifo-Dyas or something about him. Letting the whole plot drop like that seems sloppy to me. Lucas did say that he intended to have something about Sifo-Dyas in RotS but possibly he couldn't find the time to that info in given all the other things that he wanted to happen. Which is one reason why I find Gen Griev to be a waste, the time spent of this uninteresting character could have been better spent elsewhere.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark.
  18. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Obi-Wan, IMHO, did not know the exact date of Sifo-Dyas's death, hence the "impression." I rather got the idea that his body was discovered sometime after his murder and the actual date of death was only within a certain time period.

    Add to that that Obi-Wan was only one of many knights, not on the Council, and the majority of the details known to the Jedi Council probably did not filter down to the rank and file. Not to mention that it is 10 years later and the details may have fuzzed a bit in Obi-Wan's mind.

    Granted, in movie, Yoda and Mace do not directly address the point but that could be for any number of reasons: playing it close to the vest, wanting to get more info off camera...
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Dec 19, 2012
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  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He doesn't say that he's sure or assume a conclusion definitively. He only states an impression. You are essentially ignoring Yoda's advice.

    Also, to assume Tyranus is Dooku doesn't really make sense: in this scenario Dooku was directly involved in the creation of an army destined to fight against his own troops. As such, suspecting Tyranus is Dooku is tantamount to suspecting the war is a sham. Without having the crucial information that Palpatine is Sidious, the Jedi have no reason to suspect any such thing.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 19, 2012
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  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Obi-Wan did know when Sifo-Dyas died as he talks about twice in the movie, first to Lama Su and then with Mace and Yoda. He doesn't give a specific date but since the movies have no established calender for the SW galaxy, an exact date would tell us nothing.

    IF Obi-Wans memory is fuzzy about the exact date when Sifo-Dyas was killed then why not ask Mace and Yoda?
    It would take less than a second to ask them. If they knew then they could confirm or deny his conclusion that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed. If they were unsure then they could make a quick call to the archive.

    Obi-wan knows when the clone army was ordered, somethign Mace and Yoda do not know, and wheter or not Sifo-Dyas did place the order would be very relevant to Mace and Yoda. So IF they knew something that Obi-Wan didn't, why on earth would they want to keep their main investigator in the dark? Makes no sense.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  21. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
  22. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    If Sifo Dyas set the plan into motion but was killed by someone trying to stop him from placing the order (say, Dooku) then he obviously couldn't have ordered it. It would have fallen to Tyrannus to take care of it, posing as Sifo Dyas to ensure that his wishes were carried out. And that would also explain why Sifo Dyas never mentioned it to the Jedi Council -- he was killed before he could do such a thing. But, it was still placed at his behest, hence it would still be a legitimate order. Plus, the the Kaminoans (who would only be interested in being paid), it wouldn't matter to them. Tyrannus would not have used his name because he is not connected to the Republic (and he also may not have wanted his involvement to be well-known given that Sifo Dyas was murdered). There's also the fact that the army was specifically for the Republic and this Tyrannus has no connection to the Republic's structure. Plus, if it was done at Sifo Dyas' behest, then it might very well seem only logical that his name be used to place the order, since it was his idea.

    That might very well be what the Jedi concluded (even though it isn't what happened). In this case, it would seem as though Dooku is trying to prevent them from gaining access to the army, rather than facilitating it. And that's only one possibility. There's other possible options the Jedi could have concluded were true, but as Arawn_Fenn pointed out, it doesn't make much sense for Dooku (the Separatist leader) to give them control of the army. If he really wants to weaken the Jedi and take over the Republic, all he would have to do is attack them with the clones and use military force to take them out. The Jedi alone wouldn't be able to take on the clones. The clones would only be a threat to the Jedi if someone within the Republic's hierarchy could make use of them because they don't answer to Dooku.

    Quite simply, it's much easier to believe that Dooku would rather impede them in obtaining the clones rather than help them.

    Why would the Jedi think Tyrannus tampered with the Archives? He's not connected to the Jedi in any way as far as they know. See here you're bringing your knowledge of the movies in -- you are well aware that Tyrannus is a former Jedi, but the Jedi themselves have no reason to believe this. If anything, Dooku may very well have killed Tyrannus after he placed the order and then deleted the files to ensure that the Jedi couldn't accidentally stumble across Kamino. Or, at least, that's what the Jedi would have concluded.

    Perhaps the Jedi think that Dooku didn't want to inform the Senate because, as AOTC makes abundantly clear, he was a political idealist who hated the Senate. In all likelihood, he might have been afraid that the Senate would actually vote in favor of this army if it was revealed that a Jedi Master had taken the initiative to order it. That might be indicative that the Jedi had had a vision and been trying to prepare the Republic and the cowardly Senators would certainly have been interested in protecting their own interests. Plus, if the Jedi believe that Dooku had killed Sifo Dyas, then there's no way he would inform the Senate -- how would he explain the Jedi Masters' death. But at the same time, the Jedi would conclude that he wouldn't tell the Senate because he wouldn't want them to know that a Master had taken the initiative in the first place. By erasing the files, Dooku will (according to this thought process) stop the Jedi from discovering the clones because the only way they are going to discover Kamino is if they are already specifically looking for it. Deleting the files means it won't accidentally appear on any search functions. Dooku's well aware that the Jedi are already highly unlikely to go to Kamino (since it is outside of the Republic and the people keep to themselves) but there's always a danger that in, say, investigating illegal cloning, the Jedi might stumble across it.

    There's always the possibility of the Senate deciding to keep the army, though, which Dooku would have wanted to avoid. Plus, this was over ten years ago and the Senate probably wasn't nearly as dysfunctional as it is now. Don't forget that ten years ago, Palpatine had only just been appointed Chancellor so he would not have had as long to influence the Senate from such a position. If the Senate ten years ago had realized that an order had been placed by a Jedi, though, they might have been actually accepted the army (even if it did take a long, drawn out debate process). It's not like they didn't have time ten years ago.

    To be honest, I think it's a longshot simply because there's so little evidence linking them together. Jango is really the only thing, but he's a prolific bounty hunter so it's not like he's going to be especially choosy about who he works for. There's no reason for him to care that he has one job that "helps" the Republic while another "helps" the Separatists. Beyond that, I don't see much way the Jedi could have tied Tyrannus and Dooku together. Where it really hits a wall, for me, is that even if the Jedi had suspected this, there's no way to really gather evidence to act on these suspicions. Jango was killed, Boba wasn't born yet when Tyrannus recruited Jango, and there's no way the Jedi are going to find Tyrannus himself. Thus, narratively at least, it's a dead end.

    There's quite a simple answer for why Jango would be working for both though: he worked for the Tyrannus because he got his son out of the deal and he's working for Dooku because he's the best and when you're going after a Republic Senator, you probably do want the best. As to the file being deleted, truthfully, I don't see how that points to Dooku being Tyrannus. It indicates that he might have known the man, but not that they are one in the same person.

    As to the photo, I don't think the Kaminoans even physically met Sifo Dyas. They don't seem like the type of people who would have cared if he ever physically stepped foot on the planet or not as long as he had money. They thought Sifo Dyas was still alive, after all. The Kaminoans, on the whole, don't seem interested in much about the Republic beyond getting paid. We could take time out of the films to show this I suppose, but again, narratively it's a dead end.

    I'm not exactly sure how the Jedi could figure out who deleted the files. This probably happened a while ago to. At this point, there might be no way to check such a thing.

    What I'm saying is, you seem to be saying that the Jedi should have done all of these things. What I'm arguing, then, is that they probably did but because they never turned up anything significant, this wouldn't be shown in the film because it doesn't move the plot along. The Jedi are always at square one. The investigation, in essence, is implied. It's just that because they have no new information, it seems as though no investigation ever took place. That, and taking time out to show this to audiences would have led to a lot of complaining, I imagine. :p

    The war breaks out not long soon after though. They might very well have had someone scheduled to go, but with the revelation of what was going on on Geonosis, other matters would have taken precedence and Yoda himself eventually did go.

    Truthfully, I don't think this would have been possible. They were fighting a rather sudden war and war never goes as planned, especially not when you get into it quickly. I still recall how horrendously America's War in Iraq went -- with promises that we would be out in weeks/months tops and the war dragging on for years. Almost always, war is going to require more resources than you had anticipated. Given that we see from ROTS that even the Council Members (the leaders) are off-world on their own, I don't think such decentralization would have been possible. Already, they have to coordinate when many of their members are not present and setting up a new base would have used up a lot of precious resources.

    Again, though, I do think that the Jedi would have (to the best of their abilities) tried to follow up on some of these leads. I just think they wouldn't go anywhere. I doubt the Kaminoans knew much of anything useful (considering how fully they were in the dark about what was happening in the Republic and to Sifo Dyas). Tracing the money likely would only have led to an anonymous account (or the Kaminoans would have been paid in cash). Also, given that young Boba Fett was not even born when the army order was placed, I doubt he would know much of anything useful. And it's not like he'd be willing to help the Jedi given that he watched Mace kill his father.

    They did have some Senators on their side though -- such as Padmé and Bail Organa. But I think it would have been very difficult to figure this out, especially with how corrupt the Senate is and how long it takes to get anything done.

    They may very well have done so, but note that the films imply that Palpatine was subtly protecting them. As of AOTC, for example, Sio Bibble mentions that after four trials in the Supreme Court, Nute Gunray is still head of the Trade Federation. Also, I doubt they would have found anything related to the clones aboard Maul's ship.

    I don't think the Jedi didn't investigate. I just don't think they were able to turn anything up. The order for the clone army happened a decade ago and the Jedi are currently enmeshed in an enormous galaxy-wide conflict. They are by no means going to have all their resources available to them. But more than that, during those ten years, Palpatine and Dooku would have had the time to lay false trials and erase evidence. Dropping the plot was sloppy in some ways, I will agree, but I think it's incorporation into the film would have been just as (if not more) problematic because taking time out to show the Jedi being unable to find anything wouldn't have moved the story along in the slightest.

    As to the Jedi being surprised, I think you're ignoring the human element. Regardless of who placed the order, the Jedi seemed very fond of the clone troopers -- we see Anakin want to go back and help them, Obi-Wan making jokes with Cody and Cody giving him back his lightsaber, Ki Adi Mundi leading the charge, etc. They would have, I feel, come to like the individual clones (giving them names for example) and thus the betrayal would have been shocking because these were their brothers in arms. I don't think you can fight alongside someone and watch them die to help you without feeling this way, at least to some extent.

    But I'll agree with you that I felt some of Grievous' scenes dragged and could have been better spent elsewhere.
    Arawn_Fenn, ILNP and Valairy Scot like this.
  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Because you seem to want protagonists who are always five steps ahead and from whom nothing is hidden. But that's not strong drama. I don't even know what you would call that. Theater of insecurity, maybe?

    No, they have info that says that a mercenary hired himself out to both sides. Not really the same thing at all.

    And when they find no evidence that supports it, what then? Do they get scolded by people who were expecting a particular outcome, and accused of not doing anything at all?

    Why should we assume they know any more than he does?

    So that was your impression, eh? Well, so much for impressions.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 22, 2012
    ILNP likes this.
  24. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    How about they make the drama at least a fair fight and make it a truly interesting game of cat-and-mouse, like a Sherlock Holmes novel, instead of an easily defeatable plot that requires the protagonists to be complete idiots...

    They know the Sith are back.
    They suspect the Senate is under the influence of a Sith lord.
    They know a clone army which they did not order was placed 10 years ago in their names (the same time as the Naboo invasion during which time Palpatine maneuvered himself into power).
    The Jedi who supposedly placed this order died under mysterious circumstances.
    They know the Chancellor (who happens to be from Naboo) is amassing dictatorial power using the war as an excuse.
    They know the mercenary who is the template for the clone army they didn't order tried to kill the Senator who is most vocally opposing the military creation act and runs to the Separatist leaders. Hmm it would appear someone is trying to ram through this creation of an army and they already rigged it 10 years ago.

    Very easy to spot, and very easily unravelled.

    Not to mention other problems with this plot -- such as the Nemoidians from TPM were arrested and should have rolled over and pointed fingers which at very least would have given them more information on the Sith Lord and possibly lead them to Coruscant and the Senate. Or that when the plot unfolds the Jedi have hologram recordings of Darth Sidious (and should have recordings of him killing Jedi in his office) and could have presented it to the senate seeing as how it was already in session at the time they got to Coruscant.

    Had they chosen to investigate it a little more than not at all.
    Last edited by janstett, Dec 22, 2012
  25. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
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