PT Question about Clone Army, Sifo-Dyas, and Order 66

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Master Agoraphobia, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    So Jango isn't just some random guy who answers want ads, he's a person that is sought after? Isn't that what we would expect about his character?

    This position is disingenuous by nature. There is nothing in the films to disprove the possibility that they looked into things but found nothing. "Not trying at all" is your own invented assumption. Such a thing is never established anywhere in the films or in any other source. In fact, ROTS establishes outright that they were looking for Sidious. That they found nothing is only a logical extrapolation of the fact that their position on the war did not change and there was no reference to significant findings.
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  2. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    They don't believe in the imaginary rule that says everything has to be a "fair fight" or nothing should ever be hidden where protagonists can't find it.

    But they know the clones only follow legitimate Republic orders, and they have no reason to assume that the Republic would try to kill them.

    By the same token there is no indication that they didn't try. That position remains an appeal to ignorance and as such is obviously fallacious. Part of playing along with a series of fictional movies set years apart from one another involves accepting that things happen between the films that we don't see.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Dec 22, 2012
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  4. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    You are changing your argument. What I was talking about was wheter or not the jedi would SUSPECT a connection between Jango and Dooku and that Dooku might have something to do with the clone army.
    PiettsHat agreed that it was possible for the Jedi to suspect this but you don't. You claim that the Jedi have no reason to suspect this.
    Your argument was that unless they know that Palpatine is a Sith then the Jedi will NOT even suspect a connection.
    I don't agree and gave you my reasons.

    So is it possible that the Jedi could SUSPECT a connection between Dooku and the clone army, yes or no?

    If no then the Jedi will obviously not investigate this possibility.
    If yes then you agree that the Jedi could suspect such a connection.

    Bye
    Old Stoneface
  5. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't think so. You said that if a certain thing were true it would "change everything" for you. However, that thing has not been proven to be untrue. In fact, it seems to be true in the EU.
  6. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4
    Obi-Wan didn't seem to recognize the name. Hence my earlier assumption. Plus, look at it logically -- Tyrannus is in reality Dooku and no one has established a connection between the two men. Thus, I doubt that Tyrannus is going to be connected to the Republic in any significant manner or he wouldn't be much use to Dooku as an alias. And Jango certainly knows of his involvement, but we never see anyone else mention him -- not even the Kaminoans.

    They might have considered this. But again, where is their investigation going to go? Jango is dead. The Kaminoans seem to know nothing. The Jedi have no way of finding Tyrannus (since he's actually Dooku). And all this happened before Boba was born (and I hardly think he'd be willing to cooperate with the Jedi). The thing is, in order to make a substantive argument to the cowardly Senate that they should reject the clone army in a time of war, they're going to need critical evidence. And truthfully -- they have none.

    Perhaps because he was killed. Same as Sifo Dyas. He was just able to get the ball rolling. Or he is in hiding to protect himself. There's a number of possibilities.

    Because what other information do they have? And there's never any proof that he didn't order the army. Obi-Wan's thoughts aren't conclusive and Yoda even cautions him against making assumptions. But that he died before the order was placed does not preclude him from being involved. Essentially, I'm looking at this from the Jedi's perspective -- from what little they know in consideration of how strained they would be in conducting an investigation due to the passage of time, the deaths of key individuals, and their inability to contact many involved.

    You know that Tyrannus is Dooku and thus you build your argument with this fact already in place. But the Jedi have no reason to think this beyond the fact that Jango worked for both of them within the span of ten years. And that's not going to cut it when presenting evidence to the Senate, unfortunately.

    Again, I'm not saying for certain that this is what the Jedi thought, but given the dearth of information, it's a possibility that they have to consider. The Jedi might well conclude that Dooku, when he realized that Sifo Dyas was going to order an army and present information to the Senate and Jedi council, went out and killed Sifo Dyas in an effort to stop this. Unfortunately, Sifo Dyas' associate, Tyrannus, got in contact with the Kaminoans and ordered the army in his stead. Dooku then killed Tyrannus but the damage was done -- the army had been ordered. Fearing what would happen if the Senate/Jedi should discover this, he simply erased the archives of Kamino at the Jedi Temple.

    Certainly, it makes much more sense from the Jedi's perspective than thinking that Dooku himself ordered the army. What would Dooku gain from that? He has his own army -- one that he is in control of -- the Separatist army, that he could use to overrun the Jedi and take over the Republic. If the Jedi did not have the clones, this would have been the outcome for certain. Dooku has no control over the clones -- it was ordered for the Republic and the Kaminoans created them with those specifications.

    That Dooku didn't do anything about the clone army would largely be down to the fact that the Kaminoans would have no incentive to listen to him (as it would be bad for business) and additionally, it's not as though he's going to have the military capacity to take out a people whose sole function is building armies. Plus -- Dooku doesn't necessarily have to have known for ten years for this to function. He could have found out recently, when the clone army was already quite large. Dooku, even at the beginning of AOTC, still retains the Jedi's trust and a degree of esteem -- he could have had access to the archives until quite recently.

    The parameters for thinking that Dooku was the one to create the clone army (when it would obviously be detrimental to his cause) are only logical within a very distinct framework that the Jedi (unlike the audience) are not privy to.

    But the Kaminoans do not have contact with the outside world. That's made blatantly clear by the fact that they are not aware (nor do they seem all that interested) in the fact that Sifo Dyas is dead. They're all business and it could easily be down to the fact that they never would have made contact (as indeed, they don't).

    In terms of Jango, again, you have to consider that he is a professional -- betraying the Kaminoans is not in his interest because it would ruin his reputation among clients for getting the job done. This also assumes that Jango would even have the possibility to delay production. At best, the man has an apartment and provides genetic material. But he hardly seems to have been given access to his genetic army beyond that.

    Right, but Tyrannus (if he was working for Sifo Dyas) would have no reason to hide the army from the Jedi. I'm not sure what your point is here. Also, considering the fact that the Kaminoans did not contact anyone in the Republic in ten years (nor even know that Sifo Dyas had died) I think is pretty solid evidence that they weren't going to get involved. If no one from the Republic ever contacted them, they could just as easily sell the army to someone else.

    Because the Kaminoans would have informed the Senate that Sifo Dyas placed the order. If Dooku suddenly told the Senate that a clone army was being built for the Republic in Kamino -- an army that the Kaminoans claim that Sifo Dyas ordered -- and Sifo Dyas had recently been found killed, that would certainly be suspicious. Also, they might inquire into why Sifo Dyas had placed the order in the first place and if it was revealed that Sifo Dyas had, say, had a vision that the Republic would require it in the future (and told the Kaminoans of this), the Senate might be perturbed and voted to keep the army.

    But, more importantly, it's also possible that the Jedi believed that Dooku didn't find out about the army until recently, when he recruited Jango. That's another possibility in that, being unable to stop production, Dooku simply erased the archives in an attempt to stop the Jedi from stumbling on them and it was through this that he deleted the files (perhaps only a few months ago). In this case, you're right that no one would necessarily discern that Dooku had killed Sifo Dyas, but it's another possibility.

    And that's yet another issue -- it's layers upon layers upon layers of possibilities. My proposals, for example, sound no less far-fetched than the idea that Dooku placed the order and, in fact, seem more logical, given that what actually happened in the film requires that the Jedi believe that their enemy gave them the means to defend themselves.

    Oh, I don't disagree that the Jedi is pretty dysfunctional, but again, you have to consider that the issue with Naboo was far less significant than the issue with the Separatists. And, more importantly, the Senator from the Trade Federation was actively impeding Padmé's progress from within. There's also the little fact that, between TPM and AOTC, Palpatine was Chancellor and thus would have had a far more influential role in the proceedings.

    Also, consider that in the time frame of TPM, it doesn't matter whether the Senate comes to a conclusion quickly -- they could have hashed out the argument for 7 years, and it would have still ruined Dooku's plans. So it's not a matter of the Senate immediately approving the army but, when presented with the opportunity, if it wouldn't create a situation where they might accept it within the next decade.

    There's a galaxy's worth of mercenaries true, but Jango must be one of the best -- to be a template for an entire army and to take out a Senator. There's also the fact that the Jedi might have come to believe that Dooku learned about the clone army through Jango, instead of the other way around. Your basic assumption is that because Jango worked for both of them, Dooku must have recruited him for the clone army. But it's also possible that Dooku was in the dark about the army and was told by Jango of its existence when Dooku got him to assassinate Padmé. Then, Dooku, unable to stop the army, would have gotten access to the Temple and deleted the files to try to do something to prevent the Jedi from finding out about it.

    But even so, Jango would have to take on many jobs to keep his reputation intact. It's not inconceivable that he would work for a high-profile man like Dooku (the leader of the Separatist movement) in order to increase his status.

    Jango subcontracted. It's not unheard of. And for all Nute's blather, he's clearly beholden to the Sith and he's a coward. He's not going to turn his back on the Separatist cause simply because Padmé doesn't die. Indeed, she's still alive in ROTS and he's still on Dooku's side.

    Because they don't seem to care at all about the going-ons in the Republic and don't even know that Sifo Dyas has died. I'm not saying that they can't have met him in person. But I don't think they would be all that perturbed if he never physically met them. And again, there's no evidence that the Jedi didn't try such a tactic.

    But you can't presume that computer systems in the GFFA are going to be the same as ours. They might have organic computers for all we know. Dooku might have physically destroyed some of the hardware and made obtaining some data irretrievable. Again, it's possible that they might be able to access such information, but it's not certain.

    But again, I think it's unfair to say that just because the Jedi didn't find anything conclusive is indicative of the fact that they didn't investigate. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The reason such scenes would have been difficult to incorporate is that they don't go anywhere -- the Jedi never do figure out that the Sith are behind the army. And if they never figure many of these things out, it's difficult to present this to the audience in a way that doesn't just kill running time. Plus, by ROTS, the war is drawing to a close -- the Jedi likely would have been focused on ending the war rather than conducting an investigation into which they have made no headway and have no leads.

    The difference between the Vader's orders and the clone army order is that Vader is investigating a lead that produces conclusive results -- the Empire does, in fact, find out that the droids are on Tatooine, kill Luke's family, and then chase after them. The Jedi never make the connections that the audience makes. So while the points you mention in relation to Vader are important as it relates to action that takes place, the Jedi are never able to react to the discovery that the Sith were behind the clone army because they never discover such information.

    Authors also sometimes ask the audience to fill in the gaps themselves. And there are logical explanations for even blatant inconsistencies -- one of my favorite series has a character recall an event in which 42 people were killed in a mansion. Later in the series, 46 skeletons are dug up from underneath the mansions' ruins. This inconsistency is never explained. But when the author talked about it, he mentioned that it was only logical -- the man who killed those 42 people was trying to protect a woman and her twin children while going into hiding himself. Hence the discrepancy of 4 skeletons -- one for him, and three for the family he was protecting.

    For me, it's not just that elaborating on this is going to eat up screen time, but also that the investigation never goes anywhere -- never really has any conclusion. And by ROTS, is not the Jedi's highest priority and would have thus been very difficult to work in organically.

    But again, you're presuming that this would make the Jedi safer when, in fact, it would be another target to defend and decentralize their command. To actually make a secure facility would require far more than "a few houses" especially when you are in charge of conducting military operations in a galactic war. If anything, I would say it's far, far better to overestimate the costs of war, because people are far more likely to underestimate.

    The Kaminoans don't care -- they're outside the Republic. As Dex said, they keep to themselves and they're not concerned with the state of the galaxy, only with getting paid. In short, they're extreme isolationists.

    Of course I don't know that the money would lead to an anonymous account. But it doesn't have to be a source of information if it was concealed properly and since the Jedi did not find anything, I would say this is likely the case.

    As for Boba -- they have to capture him first and get him to cooperate. And you can bet that he would have resisted mightily to that. Given that he's a child as well, there's only so much the Jedi could do to get him to talk.

    But who says Nute knew much at all of value? He knew of Sidious and Maul, but that's just a name and Maul is dead. I doubt Sidious would have given them any key information. Moreover, the end of TPM implies that the Trade Federation's crimes will be handled by the Senate ("you can kiss your trade franchise goodbye") and it is later revealed in ROTS that the courts were involved.

    And the Jedi could very well claim that about the Trade Federation, but don't forget that they have their own Senator and Palpatine implies that others are one their bankroll. Palpatine may have simply outmaneuvered the Jedi using this information.

    I think you forget, though, that the Jedi are also in charge of a war -- they're not just dictating marching orders either. Each and every one of them goes out and fights. That's going to seriously limit them. If anything, it's likely that any investigation would have been delegated to the Senate where it would have died a slow and pathetic death. And if the Senate is involved, that's only going to further complicate any investigation -- since the Jedi serve the Senate. They have too few resources to deal with so many problems on such a massive scale. The war alone is going to consume the vast majority of their resources.

    Your idea has merit but I think, as it stands in the film, it's already clear that neither side really wanted to devolve into a huge war. The Senate alone had huge debates about building an army and the Separatists wanted to force reform on the Republic, but they never expected the resistance they would meet. Plus, I think the war as it is presented is rather true to the way many wars often play out -- with corporations looking after their own interests while frightened politicians send in the army to cover their own hides.

    The Jedi are also human, though, and formed bonds with the clones. But it's more than that really -- for the clones to turn on the Jedi, the Jedi have to believe that someone higher up in command could turn against them and they don't believe that.

    Mace should have warned the Jedi, but I think he was also concerned for the Republic. Sending out a message like that would not have stayed quiet and he may have feared that Palpatine, upon hearing it, would strike or would flee. Thus he chose to strike at Palpatine first and take him out as soon as he had confirmed from Anakin that Palpatine was the Sith Lord. It's a careful balancing act and he made a mistake. But Mace was also likely not thinking very clearly as he had just discovered that the man at the head of the Republic was his greatest enemy.

    And the Jedi have a duty to do what is in the best interest of the Republic first and foremost. I think that they tried to prioritize this at all times, hence why they continued to utilize the clone army -- it was what they thought would best defend the Republic from the Separatists.
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  7. Vialco Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2007
    star 3
    Admiral Arikakon Baraka.

    One of the most annoying Mon Cal characters in the EU. If he'd tried that with any of Skirata's commandos he'd have gotten a DC-17 to his bulbous head.
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  8. darklordoftech Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2012
    star 5
    I'd love to see that.
  9. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3
    I'm just going to address as many salient points as I can without quoting particular posts.

    With regard to the question of whether it was the Chancellor, Palpatine or the Sith Lord Sidious who gives Order 66 there is an important aspect which seems to have been completely overlooked - and one post even refers to Palpatine, ironically, as the face of the Republic.

    When giving the order Palpatine/Sidious has just been 'deformed/revealed' by his use of Force Lightening, and he gives the order wearing his cape and hood. Now...., when has the Chancellor been seen in cape and hood, his face hidden from view in the shadow of that get-up? Well, the Chancellor has not; in fact in the visual language of the film this is Sidious. Add in the response if the clone officers "my Lord" (and Mace's mocking use of the term upon his being revealed as a Sith Lord accentuates this phrase all the more, imo) and it is clear that it is as Sidious, the Sith Lord, that he gives the Order.

    In terms of the question of Sifo-Dyas' part in the operation, again let us look at the act of story-telling. Let us first remember that in an earlier script it was Sido-Dyas but that was seen as being too obvious. This is important in terms of where the story develops from there. The name of a real Jedi is used instead as a smokescreen. If the idea of the movie dialogue was to imply that Sifo-Dyas really did order the clone army then why would Obi-Wan's dialogue placing doubt about it be included? But the reasons for doubt don't stop there. Later, when Obi-Wan questions Jango he has never heard of Sifo-Dyas, and he further says that he was recruited by a man named Tyranus. Jango then runs to Dooku (and it has been pointed out that the dialogue Obi-Wan overhears makes it clear that Jango is Dooku's charge and not Gunray's - and Obi-Wan points out to Dooku that he seems to be the one pulling the strings during their little chat). Then Dooku is revealed as a Sith Lord.

    So, the guy who has left the Jedi Order about ten years previously is implicated with the template for the clone army; a former Jedi Master who could have deleted the files in the Jedi Temple regarding Kamino.To top it all we, the audience, find out that Dooku is Tyranus.

    Now...what is the simplest solution to this? How was Jango, who knew nothing of Sifo-Dyas, allowed entry by the Kaminoans to be the Republic's template for the clone army which was ordered by this Sifo-Dyas? The simplest solution, of course, is that Dooku used the name Sifo-Dyas to order the Clone Army, and introduced Jango to the Kaminoans under that guise. Again, bear in mind the earlier story; this is essentially that but with the smokescreen of a real Jedi's name.

    Lucas also said that ROTS makes clear who ordered the clone army (ie the mystery of Sifo-Dyas), and it does thuis by a) having the clones be the bludgeon that destroys the Jedi Order and b) have the order given to them by the hooded Sith Lord, Sidious.
  10. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1
    Clear and concise post @only one kenobi. I agree that, based on what was shown in AOTC, concluding Dooku to be the person who used the name Sifo Dyas and placed the order is the most logical, and supported, assumption. Although the EU confirms that a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas did exist and was involved in the scheme, AOTC points more to Sifo-Dyas being a puppet name, used by Count Dooku under the guise of Darth Tyranus, than of a Jedi named Sifo-Dyas actively being involved.

    That's another great point on the clone referring promptly to Darth Sidious as "my lord." Even if the clones sometimes refer to the Chancellor as a lord (and this is dubious), Palpatine at the time, was hardly recognizable. It sounds to me like you are insinuating that the line indicates some history between the clones and the Darth Sidious persona. Maybe you could elaborate a bit more?
    Last edited by Komodo9Joe, Dec 17, 2013
  11. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's something that gets overlooked a lot. That a bounty hunter will work for either side so long as he's getting paid. Granted, that's more of a mercenary, but it applies here.

    Palpatine contacted them on his private frequency that they know of and recognize his voice. Regardless of changing clothes or looking rather homely now, it is him. They only know him as Palpatine. True it is as Sidious, but for all we know, the Clonetroopers could have referred to Palpatine as "My Lord" before he gave the order to terminate the Jedi.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Dec 17, 2013
  12. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    So.. just checked to make sure my memory is correct. It is as Sidious (and the holographic nature of the message accentuates the notion) and, on every other occasion his Sidious persona is addressed as "My Lord" (Nute Gunray, General Grievous). Not once as Senator or Chancellor is he addressed in such a manner. Yet here we have the visual cues (hologram, hood) of Sidious and a previously referenced cue of holographic Sidious' appellation - and the alternative view is based upon a possibility (no more) that maybe the clones always addressed the chancellor that way...
  13. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    I can only speculate. Personally my speculation would be some kind if pre-programmed order that the clones were utterly unaware of. It is noticeable that even Temuera Morrison's vocalisation alters considerably post Order 66.
  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    It is possible. In the films, he's never seen talking to them until that very moment.
  15. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    I know it is possible, what I'm saying is (and bear in mind how Lucas structures his work) that the visual and verbal cues align very clearly (explicitly) with the persona of Sidious. "Yes my Lord" (Nute Gunray to holographic Sidious). "It will be done, my Lord" (Grievous to holographic Sidious). "Yes my Lord, it shall be done" (Cody to holographic.... Sidious). In other words it is as Sidious that we see him in holographic projection (The Phantom Menace?), shrouded and shadowed beneath his hood. And it is only as Sidious that he is referred to as "My Lord". "Sith Lord" "Dark Lord of the Sith".
  16. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    The clones are just following orders, they are made docile to obey orders without question as stated in AOTC, and we see how effective it is with the execution of order 66 in ROTS. It's not some sceret programing, it was just a order to be followed. The clones are loyal to the government (Palps) and not to the Jedi.
  17. Komodo9Joe Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2013
    star 1
    @PiettsHat, @Samuel Vimes, @darth-sinister, @only one kenobi, @darklordoftech, @Arawn_Fenn, @Vialco, @Iron_lord, and the rest, here is some great information I found on the Clone Army plot from other sites. The "clone army mystery scenes" went through several incarnations and perhaps the dialogue might clear up some of the ambiguity surrounding it. However, I found that the extra knowledge made George Lucas' intentions even more foggy. Still, the early scripts and other drafts are very interesting to read as they reveal that Sidious initially had a much bigger role in the ordering of the clone army and made the mystery of the clone army much more murkier.
    The Following is the scene that did make it into the movie:
    LAMA SU: Please tell your Master Sifo-Dyas that we have every confidence his order will be met on time and in full. He is well, I hope.
    OBI-WAN: I'm sorry? Master - ?
    LAMA SU: Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas. He's still a leading member of the Jedi Council, is he not?
    OBI-WAN: Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago.
    LAMA SU: Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. But I'm sure he would have been proud of the army we've built for him.
    OBI-WAN: The army?
    LAMA SU: Yes, a clone army. And, I must say, one of the finest we've ever created.
    OBI-WAN: Tell me, Prime Minister, when my Master first contacted you about the army, did he say who it was for?
    LAMA SU: Of course he did. This army is for the Republic. But you must be anxious to inspect the units for yourself.

    However, the following is an early draft of the scene which is radically different from the end product. The draft script refers to the person who placed the order as "Sido-Dyas", which is a twist on Sidious (Palpatine) and the story line strongly indicated the role of the Sith in both impersonating the Jedi and placing the order for the army. I couldn't verify how early this draft is, but it is true:
    1: The scene with Jango Fett and Obi-Wan

    OBI-WAN: Then you must know Master Sido-Dyas?
    ...
    JANGO FETT: Master who?
    OBI-WAN: Sido-Dyas. Is he not the Jedi who hired you for this job?
    JANGO FETT: Never heard of him.
    OBI-WAN: Really.
    JANGO FETT: I was recruited by a man called Darth Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.
    OBI-WAN: No? I thought...
    TAUN WE: Sido-Dyas told us to expect him. And he showed up just when your Jedi Master said he would. We have kept the Jedi's involvement a secret until your arrival, just as your Master requested.
    2: The scene where Obi-Wan reports to Mace and Yoda

    OBI-WAN: (V.O.) ...I've never heard of a Jedi called Sido-Dyas, have you, Master?
    MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order was not a Jedi, I can assure you.
    3: The scene where Obi-wan reports to Mace and Yoda (cont'd)

    OBI-WAN: One more thing. Jango mentioned he was recruited by someone named Darth Tyranus. Any idea who that might be?
    YODA: With the forename Darth, a Sith he must be.
    MACE WINDU: Our missing apprentice. They are playing their hand at last.
    Throughout this draft script, it is clear that the Jedi had nothing to do with it, going by Mace's tone and a Sith lord (most likely Sidious) impersonated the Jedi to place the order. Several things are hinted at/implied here on Mace's "missing apprentice": that the Jedi knew (or deduced) that Dooku was Tryannus, that perhaps the Jedi speculated that Darth Maul was involved, etc.
    However, the following script transpires in the scene that made it into the movie:
    OBI-WAN: (V.O.) Yes, Master. They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
    MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.

    MORE INTERESTING EARLY VERSIONS OF THE SCENE I FOUND ON ANOTHER SITE:

    The Following is yet another scene that was based off of Sido-Dyas(Sidious) being the man responsible for the clone army. Here, Mace and Yoda react to the name "Sido-Dyas" and curiously enough, begin to suspect that someone in the Senate is responsible:

    EXT. JEDI TEMPLE, LIVING QUARTERS - EARLY EVENING YODA and MACE WINDU listen as a hologram of OBI-WAN stands between them broadcasting the message. The signal is very weak, the image fades in and out.

    OBI-WAN (V.O.) ...I've never heard of a Jedi called Sido-Dyas, have you, Master?

    MACE WINDU No. Whoever placed that order was not a Jedi, I can assure you.

    OBI-WAN (V.O.) I have a strong feeling that this bounty hunter is the assassin we're looking for.

    YODA Who he is working for... discover that, you must.

    OBI-WAN (V.O.) I will, Master, and I will also find out more about this clone army... May The Force...

    The hologram switches off, and OBI-WAN fades away.

    WINDU A clone army! Ordered by someone in the Senate perhaps... Someone's out to start a war.

    YODA Inform the chancellor of this, we must.

    WINDU Who do you think this impostor Sido-Dyas, could be?

    YODA stares back at MACE WINDU, then slowly shakes his head.

    ANOTHER VERSION OF THE EARLY SCENE (in this one, there is even an indication that Mace and Yoda are withholding something/know something about "Sido-Dyas" that Obi-Wan does not):

    EXT. JEDI TEMPLE, LIVING QUARTERS - EARLY EVENING (The room ressembles Amidala's quarters, it is dark). YODA and MACE WINDU listen as a hologram of OBI-WAN stands between them broadcasting the message. The signal is (not) weak, the image fades in and out.

    OBI-WAN (V.O.) ...Master Sidyo-Das (could have been Sido-Dyas too but I strongly remember the first one) placed that order 10 years ago.

    YODA and MACE WINDU look at each other like showing that they know something that OBI-WAN does not.

    OBI-WAN (V.O.) I was under the impression that he died before/prior to that.

    YODA Don't pressume anything. Just find Him.

    OBI-WAN (V.O.) Yes, Master, and I will contact you when I have found out more about him...

    The hologram switches off, and OBI-WAN fades away.

    WINDU A clone army! We have lost the ability to control the Force to see the future. We must inform the council.

    YODA No, only the Dark Lord of the Sith knows of this weakness. If we inform the council multiplied our enemies will be.

    MACE WINDU stares back at YODA, then slowly shakes his head.

    This last scene seems to again be closer to what we saw in the movie, barring the fact that Sifo-Dyas is still referred to as a Sidyo-Dyas/Sido-Dyas and thus that, in this version of the script, Sidious was directly responsible for the order.

    What do all of you make of these various versions of the scene?
    Last edited by Komodo9Joe, Dec 22, 2013
  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    @Komodo9Joe,

    I was aware of most of this except the last bit.
    There was one thing that seemed very odd there. Mace wanted to inform the Council, not the Senate. This would be the Jedi Council but Yoda tells him no, that their enemies will increase in numbers. They have enemies in the Jedi Council?

    Other bits and pieces I have come across are;
    In the earlier version of the script, Obi-Wan reported to Mace and Yoda before talking to Jango.

    Also this;

    The last line implies that "Sido-Dyas" was directly involved in the hiring of Jango so it becomes even stranger when Jango says he has never heard of him.

    Also this;

    These lines tells us that "Sido-Dyas" told the Kamino people who the host would be and this explains why Jango was accepted without much fuss. So Jango must have been hired by the time "Sido-Dyas" placed the order. Or "Sido-Dyas" was in contact with the Kamino people more than once.
    As it is now, it becomes a bit odd how Jango could have been accepted as the host. If it really was Sifo-Dyas then he couldn't have said anything about Jango and Jango has never heard of him so he couldn't have used his name when he first came to Kamino. Unless "Sifo-Dyas" was really Dooku and he had already hired Jango and told them to expect him.

    It is pretty clear that the shooting script had the Clone army be ordered under a false name and the Jedi knew it.
    Some scenes were re-shot during pick ups and other scenes trimmed or removed. Now Sifo-Dyas is a real if dead Jedi. But I think the film still imply that the Clone Army was ordered under a false name and the Jedi seem to suspect this as well. Obi-Wan says Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the order was placed. Why is this line in the film unless to imply that there are shady things with this clone army?
    It is probably a good thing that "Darth Tyrannus" was replaced with just Tyrannus. Otherwise the Jedi know for sure that the Sith are behind the clone army. I think it would have been good to keep the Jedi speculating about who placed the order and that it might have been someone in the senate.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    only one kenobi likes this.
  19. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    Using a real but dead Jedi's name is a better cover than using a fake Jedi name. I can see why Lucas changed it.
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    I agree with you there. But the basic plot seems the same, that the army was ordered under a false name. At least that is what the film implies to me.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  21. Slicer87 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2013
    star 1
    I don't disagree that the clone army was ordered under an assumed name, just that it makes more sense to use a real Jedi's name since it would be harder for the Jedi to confirm their suspension. If Lucas stuck with using a made up Jedi name, then they would know right away their suspension is valid.
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