Questions from RP/SBS***Warning Spoilers****

Spoiler Space
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I just finished reading Rogue Planet and am I correct in assumming that the Far Outsiders are the Vong from NJO? Also, on Vergere at the end of SBS when she tells Jacen that her tears are for him, do you think she's saying that she's actually been on the side of the Jedi all this time and has completely bamboozled the Vong into where her loyalties have been through the years? Or has she become a Dark Jedi?

 

Yes

 

Interesting thoughts on Vergere. While she goes out of her way to help the jedi, she doesn't bat an eyelid at the mass murder of women and children, suggesting that she has fallen somewhat to the darkside.

My theory is that she has fallen into the trap of elitism, which the Vong use as their argument for mass murder (we are the children of God, the others a devilish heretics and infidels,) but sees the jedi as the superior uber-race, and thus she won't lift a finger to help anyone normal. Remember, being darkside doesn't stop you from being pro-jedi (Kyp Duron, while thoroughly evil, still supports the jedi, as does Anakin, who was headin the same way.)

 

I like your one-word answer there Mastadge! Does that mean you're answering yes to all of the questions I posed? <ggg>

 

no

She's definitely a good guy, just her morals and behavior have changed somewhat. She's helping the Jedi, but she also has been somewhat influenced by the Von.g

 

<<Interesting thoughts on Vergere. While she goes out of her way to help the jedi, she doesn't bat an eyelid at the mass murder of women and children, suggesting that she has fallen somewhat to the darkside.

My theory is that she has fallen into the trap of elitism, which the Vong use as their argument for mass murder (we are the children of God, the others a devilish heretics and infidels,) but sees the jedi as the superior uber-race, and thus she won't lift a finger to help anyone normal. Remember, being darkside doesn't stop you from being pro-jedi (Kyp Duron, while thoroughly evil, still supports the jedi, as does Anakin, who was headin the same way.)>>

Mmm...I never thought about that way. I have always thought that Kyp was evil, no matter how much he claims he's not. I think it's in his nature to always have a dark side edge to him. I wasn't so sure about Anakin though, maybe if Jaina had been killed instead of him, he might have turned completely out of revenge. Vergere is quite interesting to me and I was quite surprised, in fact my mouth fell open when her name was first mentioned in RP, because it finally was clear where she fit in the NJO.

 

<<no

She's definitely a good guy, just her morals and behavior have changed somewhat. She's helping the Jedi, but she also has been somewhat influenced by the Von.g >>

That makes more sense, because I couldn't see her helping Mara get better by giving Han her tears as the antidote to the poison.
Personally, I think she has been gathering intelligence on the Vong and one day she will make her move against them.

 

That's what I've been saying. She's can do a lot more as someone close to high ranking Vong, than as one more Jedi fighting against them.

 

<<That's what I've been saying. She's can do a lot more as someone close to high ranking Vong, than as one more Jedi fighting against them. >>

And, boy has she done a good job of fooling both sides.

 

Also, on Vergere at the end of SBS when she tells Jacen that her tears are for him, do you think she's saying that she's actually been on the side of the Jedi all this time and has completely bamboozled the Vong into where her loyalties have been through the years? Or has she become a Dark Jedi?

Since her tears heal, she's crying for him to give him strength and heal his wounds. I think she's on the side of the Jedi, but it would be just as easy to write her on the Vong's side at this point.

 

<<Since her tears heal, she's crying for him to give him strength and heal his wounds. I think she's on the side of the Jedi, but it would be just as easy to write her on the Vong's side at this point. >>

Gee, I didn't even think about the tears healing Jacen. I was so upset over Anakin and wanting to see what happened at the end, my mind wasn't processing my thought patterns very well.

 

Perhaps Vergere was crying for Jacen, because she knows what he's going to go through.

It always puzzled me that in Rogue Planet the "invaders" call of their assault because Vergere surendered and will go with them. Then in AoC she shows up as a common pet, sort of. Now shes the Wamasters aid. Seems like the Yuuzhan Vong missed something(that a discussion for later though).

Anyway...I would believe she got put through the ringer by their people. She must know how bad its going to be, especially since J harmed the Warmaster.

 

If she isn't plotting against the Vong, her actions in HT become somewhat pointless. It would have been easier to just introduce Vergere as Tsavong's advisor from the beginning. No, she's up to something.

 

Is Kyp definitely evil? I didn't realize that everyone thought that.

Why does Luke fight alongside Kyp in SbS? I guess he could be trying to control Kyp's evil tendencies by taking him under his wing, but that seems kind of evasive to the real problem...

(On another noteWow, Vergere, on the side of good? That would be strange indeed, considering her actions. She has advised Tsavong Lah in the war effort, provided useful information on the jedi, and even saved the life of Nom Anor during the series so far. Not to mention that she has stood by quietly as millions upon millions have been murdered and billions enslaved. I would rather judge the majority of her actions than a few seconds of ambiguity at the end of SbS...

(Another thing on Kyp If he is evil, why doesn't he start, like frying Vong with lightning and using all the crazy stuff Exar Kunn taught him? He seems kind of demure for an evil character. Yeah, he's more aggressive than Luke and Jacen, but it is not as though he fights out of lust for power, or any form of greed. He never lets his hatred or fear drive him, only what he thinks is best for the war effort. I just don't seem to remember him as being described or written as "evil" per se. I guess you people have the books with you and stuff, so you probably know more.

 

You know Risste I just can't figure out why people think Kyp is so evil either.

I haven't ever seen him act dark anytime after the Jedi Academy Trilogy. So why do people think so bad of him????

I guess people can't come to terms with him disagreeing with Luke. Kyp's just got strong opinions about how to fight the Yuuzhan Vong, and there's nothing dark about that. Jedi aren't supposed to be Zombies, they have to think "outside the box" namely Lukes box, sometimes.

 

Agreed.

 

<<Perhaps Vergere was crying for Jacen, because she knows what he's going to go through.

It always puzzled me that in Rogue Planet the "invaders" call of their assault because Vergere surendered and will go with them. Then in AoC she shows up as a common pet, sort of. Now shes the Wamasters aid. Seems like the Yuuzhan Vong missed something(that a discussion for later though).

Anyway...I would believe she got put through the ringer by their people. She must know how bad its going to be, especially since J harmed the Warmaster. >>

I too was also puzzled by the Vong calling off their attack and they disappear for all
those years. Yeah, Jacen is in for more rough times ahead. And, it will be interesting to see if he has the stomach for it.

 

<<If she isn't plotting against the Vong, her actions in HT become somewhat pointless. It would have been easier to just introduce Vergere as Tsavong's advisor from the beginning. No, she's up to something. >>

I totally agree! She has had her own agenda all along. To have survived fifty-four years with the Vong, she is one powerful Jedi.

 

<<Is Kyp definitely evil? I didn't realize that everyone thought that. >>

Risste, I'm not totally convinced Kyp is evil per se, but he definitely feels that both aspects of the force, good and dark can be used without corrupting the person that they are. He intends to use the Force to eliminate the Vong the way he sees fit, not the way Luke wants it. Of course, Luke and everyone else is worried about Kyp taking that path, because the next time he may not be able to find his way back.

<<(On another noteWow, Vergere, on the side of good? That would be strange indeed, considering her actions. She has advised Tsavong Lah in the war effort, provided useful information on the jedi, and even saved the life of Nom Anor during the series so far. Not to mention that she has stood by quietly as millions upon millions have been murdered and billions enslaved. I would rather judge the majority of her actions than a few seconds of ambiguity at the end of SbS...>>

I'm going to quote Luke here and say "there is still good in her" Granted, she has stood by and watched millions die, but that doesn't mean she hasn't died a little inside each time for the loss of life she is a part of, for the greater good down the road she knows she has to go along. I think we are going to see a different Vergere eventually.

<<(Another thing on Kyp If he is evil, why doesn't he start, like frying Vong with lightning and using all the crazy stuff Exar Kunn taught him? He seems kind of demure for an evil character. Yeah, he's more aggressive than Luke and Jacen, but it is not as though he fights out of lust for power, or any form of greed. He never lets his hatred or fear drive him, only what he thinks is best for the war effort. I just don't seem to remember him as being described or written as "evil" per se. I guess you people have the books with you and stuff, so you probably know more. >>

I don't think that's Kyp's style using the lightning etc...While it's true that he's never been written as evil, Kyp believes the Jedi need to change from the way they have always done things to a different path. Which of course frightens the Senate and the government, because they are afraid the Jedi will end up becoming more powerful than ever.

 

"I'm going to quote Luke here and say "there is still good in her" Granted, she has stood by and watched millions die, but that doesn't mean she hasn't died a little inside each time for the loss of life she is a part of, for the greater good down the road she knows she has to go along. I think we are going to see a different Vergere eventually. "

Skyra, I wonder about this. Kyp had his little jaunt on the dark side of things, and since then no-one has been able to see him as anything but the next worst thing to a full-fledged sith. Why is everyone so eager to believe that Vergere is a good person who is trying to help, while she is on the side of the vong?

Another question: Is it beyond conception that we may see a "different Kyp" eventually?

The idea that Vergere would just sit back and watch the whole galxy-mutilation thing, feel bad, but do nothing about it because she wants to help defeat the vong by getting on their good side, seems like an extreme of Kyp's philosophy.

Kyp thinks that killing millions of Vong is justified if it wins the war for the republic. If the predictions about Vergere are true, then she believes that the killing of billions of innocent non-vong civilians is justified if it helps her help the jedi win the war. That seems like a double standard.

"The Greater Good"--interesting choice of words. That is reminicent of the "Good of the People" phrase that Stalin always cited while ordering mass killings. The greater good of what? When you help to destroy that which you ultimately plan to save, your work is not for the greater good.

If there were three people in a room, and a terrorist wanted to kill them all, and I wanted to get on his good side so that I could betray him, I would not think that yanking my .45 and blowing one of them away was for "The Greater Good" of the other two. The fact is, I just KILLED one third of the population of those innocents. The action I took was detrimental, not good in any way.

"The ends justifies the means" is a phrase that has led to lots of evil and very little good. It is not the Jedi way.

 

Vergere just sits by while the Yuuzhan Vong kill billions?

I don't think that fair. We can't place blame on her for the Yuuzhan Vong's crimes. Besides its not like she has the power to actually stop them, all she can do now if she tried that would be to get herself killed. The warmaster hasn't actually been following her orders just listening to her suggestions, she doesn't have as much influence as one would think.

 

Ok, how about an indiana jones example...

She stood up to be counted with the enemy of everything that the Jedi stand for- who gives a d@mn what she THINKS?

Her motives do not matter. She has not acted against the slaughter of billions, and to refuse to act against evil is to condone it.

"Vergere just sits by while the Yuuzhan Vong kill billions?

I don't think that fair. We can't place blame on her for the Yuuzhan Vong's crimes. Besides its not like she has the power to actually stop them, all she can do now if she tried that would be to get herself killed. The warmaster hasn't actually been following her orders just listening to her suggestions, she doesn't have as much influence as one would think. "

I never blamed her for killing the billions. I said she sits by and watches it happen. I DO blame her for her actions, or lack thereof. She has sided with the Vong, a people wholly and zealously dedicated to the eradiction of all other peoples. Whether or not she plans to justify her means with an end is moot. She stands with the Vong. That is her crime in and of itself. Of course she couldn't stop them, she is only a single jedi. But being incapable of stopping great evil and refusing to stand up to that evil are two different things.

This bemuses me. I say that I think Kyp is really a good guy, and plenty of people in this forum jump down my throat about how he is the real villain and hes a jerk, blahblahblah.

At the same time, everyone is in this huge hurry to welcome Vergere into the jedi fold. She has never stood up to the vong, not even once! She has saved Mara's life, temporarily, and supposedly she helped Jacen at the end of SbS. This provides no evidence that she is on their side, only that she had pity for them.

Notice: my original post was about the double standard between Vergere and Kyp, not about the fact that she was wholly evil. What I was pointing towards is that Vergere and Kyp are both characters who are in the grey right now. There is no telling whether one might become good, or both good, or vice verse. To say that one person who is of unsure character will turn to the darkside and be a villain, and that the other one is going to be the new SW hero, seems a little hypocritical.

 

<<Skyra, I wonder about this. Kyp had his little jaunt on the dark side of things, and since then no-one has been able to see him as anything but the next worst thing to a full-fledged sith. Why is everyone so eager to believe that Vergere is a good person who is trying to help, while she is on the side of the vong? >>

Wow, you make some very good points. Let's see if I can respond in my limited intelligence I sometimes find it difficult to express my point without coming off like an idiot.
I'm not eager to believe that Vergere is a good person, in fact I have many doubts about her. It's possible even that one of the Jedi or one of the Vong will take her out when they discover what she's done. But, even a dark Jedi can sometimes feel a sliver of goodness, especially when they experience moments of true happiness. I could give you an example, but I don't know if you have read "Shadows of the Empire" and I don't like giving away parts of a book. As for Kyp being seen as a Sith waiting to happen, most of the galaxy knows about his trip down the dark path and it's hard for them to see beyond that unfortunately. But, not many people know about Vergere and if they did she also would be seen in the same light as Kyp.

<<Another question: Is it beyond conception that we may see a "different Kyp" eventually? >>

No, not beyond conception at all. There's been a lot of talk about Jaina taking that road to the dark side, and if she does, I see Kyp being the one pulling her back, which if he did, would change people's perceptions about him. Now, this is purely conjecture on my part, something I would like to see happen. I like his character and he's a perfect foil to Luke and his beliefs.

<<The idea that Vergere would just sit back and watch the whole galxy-mutilation thing, feel bad, but do nothing about it because she wants to help defeat the vong by getting on their good side, seems like an extreme of Kyp's philosophy.

<<Kyp thinks that killing millions of Vong is justified if it wins the war for the republic. If the predictions about Vergere are true, then she believes that the killing of billions of innocent non-vong civilians is justified if it helps her help the jedi win the war. That seems like a double standard. >>

Kind of hard to argue with that statement, in fact I have to agree with you, the more I think about it. A lot of what I've been saying about Vergere is just my own rambling thoughts and probably will have no bearing on what actually happens.

<<"The Greater Good"--interesting choice of words. That is reminicent of the "Good of the People" phrase that Stalin always cited while ordering mass killings. The greater good of what? When you help to destroy that which you ultimately plan to save, your work is not for the greater good.

If there were three people in a room, and a terrorist wanted to kill them all, and I wanted to get on his good side so that I could betray him, I would not think that yanking my .45 and blowing one of them away was for "The Greater Good" of the other two. The fact is, I just KILLED one third of the population of those innocents. The action I took was detrimental, not good in any way.

"The ends justifies the means" is a phrase that has led to lots of evil and very little good. It is not the Jedi way. >>

I don't have an answer for you on this argument, because your points are quite valid and there isn't much I could argue
against them. Mmm...I've got some serious
thinking to do here.
Thanks for the great discussion on this, I've really enjoyed it. Until I found this board, I had no one to discuss SW with and it's great to have people to talk to about my favorite world.

 

<<I never blamed her for killing the billions. I said she sits by and watches it happen. I DO blame her for her actions, or lack thereof. She has sided with the Vong, a people wholly and zealously dedicated to the eradiction of all other peoples. Whether or not she plans to justify her means with an end is moot. She stands with the Vong. That is her crime in and of itself. Of course she couldn't stop them, she is only a single jedi. But being incapable of stopping great evil and refusing to stand up to that evil are two different things. >>

You know, I think I did a bad job in trying to convey *my* thoughts on Vergere and made it seem like I condone her actions. I don't believe me. She is guilty of standing by and doing nothing. I was merely letting fly possible paths the writers or Lucasfilm might take with her character.

<<This bemuses me. I say that I think Kyp is really a good guy, and plenty of people in this forum jump down my throat about how he is the real villain and hes a jerk, blahblahblah. >>

If I jumped down your throat, I apologize, because that was not my intention. I have already stated that I like the character and IMO things may be different for him down the road.

<<At the same time, everyone is in this huge hurry to welcome Vergere into the jedi fold. She has never stood up to the vong, not even once! She has saved Mara's life, temporarily, and supposedly she helped Jacen at the end of SbS. This provides no evidence that she is on their side, only that she had pity for them. >>

Maybe that's what the writers have intended all along. To make us think she is helping the Jedi, but in the end she's not, that she intends to hand Jacen to the Vong as her true agenda.

<<Notice: my original post was about the double standard between Vergere and Kyp, not about the fact that she was wholly evil. What I was pointing towards is that Vergere and Kyp are both characters who are in the grey right now. There is no telling whether one might become good, or both good, or vice verse. To say that one person who is of unsure character will turn to the darkside and be a villain, and that the other one is going to be the new SW hero, seems a little hypocritical. >>

You're right there is no telling what is goign to happen, but that's what makes for great discussions. If I hadn't posed the original question to begin with, you wouldn't have had a chance to speak your mind and I wouldn't have been able to respond with an open mind. Which I hope I have done.

 

Skyra- No no no...you never got upset or anything. Skyra, you've handled yourself as well as I can aspire to, please don't think that I was accusing you of rudeness or anything of the sort.

--I know exactly what you mean. I have to check three or four times to make sure what I am writing is valid and not nonsense.

When I talked of people who adamantly and immovably hate Kyp, I meant "this forum" as in the message board as a whole. Even then a good majority of people here never get too upset at anything, really.
(I meant people who talk about how they hope the next person to die is Kyp, because hes so evil and such a jerk, and doesn't deserve to live...)

By the way, "Jumping down the throat" is a terrible descriptive metaphor, and I apologize for contaminating your thread with it. Lets just say: "Get irate."

Skyra, I have nothing but respect for your opinions at this point. I understand your point as well, that the authors are going to go in one of many directions with this plot, and that you were floating some ideas out there.

My thanks for creating the thread, it helped me vent some of my frustrations, and that is never a bad thing.