Qui Gon is the greatest Jedi character so far.

Qui-Gon's characteristics is what I have in mind for the perfect Jedi. Wise and smart and an optional matter that might only be in the minds of girls - his looks, which is perfect.

 

Qui-Gon is one of my favorite character but in EPII, Mace kicks some serious ass.

 

OK... but exactly how is that different from Palpatine maipulating the greed of the Trade Federation to further his ambition of becoming Supreme Chancellor?

Because Qui-Gon was trying to free slaves, and Palpatine was trying to take steps toward galactic domination.

I don't remember being shown that once, let alone "time and time again."

You must have not watched Episode II. I guess the whole love story just went over you head didn't it. NO ATTACHMENTS.

Did it? He was right that Anakin was the chosen one, but I've yet to see anything indicating that he was right to train him- everything seems to me to be indicating that Yoda was right, and Qui Gon was very, very wrong.

So how did you expect Anakin to bring balance to the Force, with no help of getting his freedom, and no training? He's just going to tell Sidious to drop dead or he's gonna tell his mommy? If Qui-Gon didn't find him and try to get him trained, we wouldn't really have any story.

I don't see what is different between Palpatine and Qui Gon manipulating other peoples greed in order to achieve their own personal goals though. What is it that makes one "light" and the other dark, when both lead directly to the wiping out of the Jedi and the rise of the Empire.

It's the intentions that they both had that set them apart. Come on, that should be obvious to you. I also don't think that Qui-Gon did it for his own personal goals, I think he was just acting upon the Will of the Force.

Yeah, once or twice.

I just dont see anything about "banishment of emotion" in with all the "be mindful of your feelings", "trust your feelings" and so on that the Force is all about.

I mean, Qui Gon is clearly something of a maverick, but that doesn't necessarily mean that when he says "feel don't think", the Jedi Council are saying "think, don't feel."


I think banishment was the wrong word for this. He simply meant that attachments should not control the decisions you make as a Jedi. That's it really.

Well, according to Lucas, "bringing balance" was all about ridding the galaxy of the Sith, and of the Dark Side which was what was destroying the balance in the first place.

Qui Gon was clearly correct that Anakin was the Chosen One, but I think he was wrong in thinking that he should have been trained- and I've yet to see a single piece of evidence that suggests that he wasn't. Every concern that the Council expressed came to pass.

If he was conceioved by the Force to "bring balance", then why was he conceived somewhere he wouldn't be trained by the Jedi? And why did Qui Gon have to interfere with his destiny? Was he correcting the Force's mistake?

Yes, but how do you know that destiny didn't also want Qui-Gon to be the one to find him and start him on the path?

 

"If he was conceioved by the Force to "bring balance", then why was he conceived somewhere he wouldn't be trained by the Jedi? And why did Qui Gon have to interfere with his destiny? Was he correcting the Force's mistake?"

That´s the point, but the other way round. He was born so the Jedi couldn´t shape his character, then the Force guided QGJ to him. Remember nor him nor OB1 sensed the trap in the Federation ship, and ended up in Tatooine.

People tend to think Jedi training was right, but I disagree, with their detatchment they also lost something along the way. QGJ is the only PT Jedi who feels like Ben Kenobi or ROTJ Luke, and there is a kind of warmth in his character most of the time. I think the Force was trying to warn the Jedi about being wrong, but they wouldn´t listen; QGJ is the only one who talks of listening to the will of the Force, everybody else thought in terms of a self made Code.

IMHO, QGJ would have managed to keep Anakin´s emotions balanced, which I think were his fall, after all Luke has the rest of Anakin´s flaws ( recklessness- ANH, ESB, arrogance- ESB, quick rage, and so on) and overcomes them.

 

>>>>Because Qui-Gon was trying to free slaves, and Palpatine was trying to take steps toward galactic domination.

"I didn't come here to free slaves."

He could have freed Shmi from slavery without having to cheat a dice roll, but instead he freed Anakin. The slavery issue has nothing to do with Anakin's training- Qui Gon was doing everything within his power to ensure that Anakin was trained.

>>>You must have not watched Episode II. I guess the whole love story just went over you head didn't it. NO ATTACHMENTS.

"No attachments" does not mean "surpressed emotions" though.
"Compassion [...] is central to a jedi's life" implies that emotional understanding of others is very important to the PT Jedi. Obi Wan's "be mindful of your feelings" advice implies that understanding ones own emotions is important too.

>>>>So how did you expect Anakin to bring balance to the Force, with no help of getting his freedom, and no training? He's just going to tell Sidious to drop dead or he's gonna tell his mommy? If Qui-Gon didn't find him and try to get him trained, we wouldn't really have any story.

Well, how would he have flown a tiny Naboo starfighter into the interior of a Trade Federation battleship without any training, and done what all the trained pilots couldn't do? How would he win a podrace when no other human can even fly them?

Answer: Because he was the Chosen One, with a prodigious amount of midichlorians. Midichlorians communicate the will of the Force. With no training, he still had natural special abilities.

Anakin was being guided through the Force without any Jedi training- I thought TPM made this explicitly clear. He could "feel" it, but he had no power over it, and therefore no temptation of the Dark Side- until Qui Gon came along...

>>>>It's the intentions that they both had that set them apart. Come on, that should be obvious to you. I also don't think that Qui-Gon did it for his own personal goals, I think he was just acting upon the Will of the Force.

But Anakin's training WAS Qui Gon's own personal goal- he wasn't following the will of the force, but his own idea that he should be trained. How else do you explain Yoda's line;
"Trained as a Jedi you would have him? Revealed your opinion is."

What was that line supposed to tell the audience?

>>>>I think banishment was the wrong word for this. He simply meant that attachments should not control the decisions you make as a Jedi. That's it really.

I'd say that it's not attachments, but personal feelings that aren't supposed to control a Jedi's decisions, because otherwise they are acting on their own wishes instead of thinking of the greater good- the same goes for love as for hate (as we saw in AOTC.)

This is the reason behind the Jedi vows of no attachments, no posessions etc- exactly the same reason monks make exactly the same vows- because of the belief that every waking moment spent on personal issues is a moment not spent serving the Will of God/The Force.

>>>>Yes, but how do you know that destiny didn't also want Qui-Gon to be the one to find him and start him on the path?

Well, I don't know it, obviously, but I don't see why, if the Force wanted Anakin to be a Jedi it would have conceived him outside the Republic, then waited until he was so old before sending Qui Gon along. It makes no sense, especially considering the results (ie. Darth Vader.)

I mean, what do you think the point of the "wager with watto" scene is, if it's not Qui Gon manipulating Anakin's destiny? Hidden hands changing fates- no wonder his future is clouded!

>>>He was born so the Jedi couldn´t shape his character, then the Force guided QGJ to him.

So Qui Gon was supposed to have Anakin trained after he'd formed a bond with his mother, and got a crush on Padmé? It was all the Will of the Force?

So that would mean that, logically, him turning to the Dark Side the Will of the Force, him wiping out the Jedi was the Will of the Force etc. etc. and nobod

 

"I didn't come here to free slaves."

He could have freed Shmi from slavery without having to cheat a dice roll, but instead he freed Anakin. The slavery issue has nothing to do with Anakin's training- Qui Gon was doing everything within his power to ensure that Anakin was trained.


But it was the fact that unlike alot of the Jedi during that era (including his own padawan), he was very focused on "the living force". This is a metaphor for being in tune with the realities and truth "hidden" in the real world. Both Jar Jar and Anakin were pivotal players in the story of bringing balance to the force, and only a Jedi like Qui-Gon saw through their "pathetic lifeforms" visage. That's an important factor in the mythos.

"No attachments" does not mean "surpressed emotions" though.
"Compassion [...] is central to a jedi's life" implies that emotional understanding of others is very important to the PT Jedi. Obi Wan's "be mindful of your feelings" advice implies that understanding ones own emotions is important too.


What sounds good in principal, has been distorted to the point that the mainstream Jedi of the old Republic have lost focus and wisdom. They have been in uncontested power for so many years, that their order is slipping. The fact that their monk-like existence has taken them away from THE PEOPLE spiritually, is one of the main reasons they are patsys of evil incarnate.


Well, how would he have flown a tiny Naboo starfighter into the interior of a Trade Federation battleship without any training, and done what all the trained pilots couldn't do? How would he win a podrace when no other human can even fly them?

Answer: Because he was the Chosen One, with a prodigious amount of midichlorians. Midichlorians communicate the will of the Force. With no training, he still had natural special abilities.

Anakin was being guided through the Force without any Jedi training- I thought TPM made this explicitly clear. He could "feel" it, but he had no power over it, and therefore no temptation of the Dark Side- until Qui Gon came along...


I think YOU are reading into something that wasn't in the films. If Darth Maul kidnapped Anakin from Shmi before destiny (or the force) brought Qui-Gon there, of course Anakin might very well have become an evil Sith.

Qui-Gon finding Anakin was the WILL OF THE FORCE. As much as the Jawas bringing R2 and 3P0 to the Lars was.

But Anakin's training WAS Qui Gon's own personal goal- he wasn't following the will of the force, but his own idea that he should be trained. How else do you explain Yoda's line;
"Trained as a Jedi you would have him? Revealed your opinion is."

What was that line supposed to tell the audience?

All Yoda meant was, JUST SPIT OUT WHY YOU'VE BROUGHT THIS BOY HERE! WE KNOW SOMETHING IS UP! WHY DO YOU WANT TO BREAK JEDI PROTOCOL BY TRAINING A BOY NOT TAKEN FROM BIRTH. WHY?!!!

That takes nothing away from the fact that Qui-Gon believed he was doing the "will of the force". That was his motivation. It wasn't about ego.

I'd say that it's not attachments, but personal feelings that aren't supposed to control a Jedi's decisions, because otherwise they are acting on their own wishes instead of thinking of the greater good- the same goes for love as for hate (as we saw in AOTC.)

This is the reason behind the Jedi vows of no attachments, no posessions etc- exactly the same reason monks make exactly the same vows- because of the belief that every waking moment spent on personal issues is a moment not spent serving the Will of God/The Force.


It's understood that the Jedi represent the light side of the force in the galaxy, and that their ideals have a sound basis in principal. But the fact is, as time went by, they have become so extreme living this life guarding against extremity in emotions, they have slipped. They now lack WISDOM because of it.

This is a major theme of the prequels.


Well, I don't know it, obviously, but I don't see why, if the Force wanted Anakin to be a Jedi it

 

A lot of people talk about how Qui-Gon bent the rules to beat Watto with the chance cube. But if you notice, Watto was trying to cheat Qui-Gon. The chance cube had only one blue side. Qui-Gon sensed this and bent the rules a little to beat Watto at his own game.

 

>>>Both Jar Jar and Anakin were pivotal players in the story of bringing balance to the force, and only a Jedi like Qui-Gon saw through their "pathetic lifeforms" visage.

But the parts that they both played were due to Qui Gon's interference bringing them both to Palpatine's attention!

>>>Qui-Gon finding Anakin was the WILL OF THE FORCE. As much as the Jawas bringing R2 and 3P0 to the Lars was.

Maybe so, but I have yet to see anything that suggests that Anakin's training was. Yet there are hints that suggest the opposite.

>>>All Yoda meant was, JUST SPIT OUT WHY YOU'VE BROUGHT THIS BOY HERE! WE KNOW SOMETHING IS UP! WHY DO YOU WANT TO BREAK JEDI PROTOCOL BY TRAINING A BOY NOT TAKEN FROM BIRTH. WHY?!!!

I don't think so. Yoda's comment was a statement, not a question.

>>>That takes nothing away from the fact that Qui-Gon believed he was doing the "will of the force". That was his motivation. It wasn't about ego.

That was what he thought he was doing, sure. He was absolutely convinced that he was right, that Anakin was the Chosen One, and that he had to be trained.

The only bit that nobody agreed with him on (except Obi Wan, after he had died)was that he should be trained.

What does Yoda say in AOTC about Jedi being "too sure of themselves"? Sound relevant here?

>>>Qui-Gon has nothing on Obi-Wan and Yoda's manipulating of Luke's destiny.

At least Obi Wan waited for Luke to come to him. OK, so he twisted the truth about how he "died" (although as he said, it was the truth from a certain point of view- a point of view which Luke accepts when he faces him in ROTJ on Endor), but he did let Luke make all his own choices.
Same for Yoda.

Neither of them abused their Jedi powers in order to get Luke to do.


As for your take on the "prophecy"- I just don't believe that when the Force 'created' Anakin, it did so with the intention of him turning to the Dark Side, becoming a Sith and wiping out the Jedi. The whole point of the Dark Side is of using the Force for selfish ends- the idea of the Force itself planning this just doesn't fit for me.

And, as you said, "Now Anakin wasn't taken from birth and secluded from any emotional relationships outside the Jedi infrastructure. He joined at an irregular period for a padawan, which makes him unique and actually more like us---the viewer. "He's too old", Mace Windu said. "Much fear in you" , Yoda added, pointing to his strong relationship with his mother."- but Luke takes this to a whole other level- he's even older when he starts training, he doesn't have a master for a great deal of time to keep him in check, and yet he manages OK without turning to the Dark Side.

(Interesting to note that Anakin's mother dies when Anakin is about the same age as Luke when his foster parents are killed...)


>>>In the end, Anakin does achieve his destiny of bringing Balance to the Force. But it happens because of the redemption of his son, something the Jedi of the OLD Republic could never comprehend.

But it's Obi Wan and Yoda- Jedi of the Old Republic- who put Luke on the path to confront Vader. Why did they do that if it wasn't with the same end in mind?

>>>If you really ponder the saga, it's about the power of FAMILY.

Well, I'd say it's about the power of Love. Although Anakin's love leads him astray (because of his selfish attitude), it's Luke's love for his father that leads him to redemption, and Anakin's love for his son that saves the universe.



>>>A lot of people talk about how Qui-Gon bent the rules to beat Watto with the chance cube. But if you notice, Watto was trying to cheat Qui-Gon. The chance cube had only one blue side. Qui-Gon sensed this and bent the rules a little to beat Watto at his own game.

So two wrongs make a right now? It's OK to cheat a cheat? Doing bad things is OK, so long as you only do them to bad people?

What kind of morality is that? Seems to me that the right thing for Qui Gon to do would be to refuse to play.

 

But the parts that they both played were due to Qui Gon's interference bringing them both to Palpatine's attention

Qui-Gon is a harbinger of the will of the force. He is not responsible for the old Republic Jedi mucking up the chosen one. It is indicative of their flaws THAT THEY DID.


I don't think so. Yoda's comment was a statement, not a question.

You can infer an inquisitive sentiment from a statement.


That was what he thought he was doing, sure. He was absolutely convinced that he was right, that Anakin was the Chosen One, and that he had to be trained.

The only bit that nobody agreed with him on (except Obi Wan, after he had died)was that he should be trained.

What does Yoda say in AOTC about Jedi being "too sure of themselves"? Sound relevant here?

Yoda's statement was his perception of the status quo of the Jedi order, 10 years after Qui-Gon's death. Obi-Wan in TPM represented this status quo, and Qui-Gon was the alternative. I prefer Qui-Gon because he knew what was up. It took Yoda 10 more years to start to become aware of just how flawed the order had become.

At least Obi Wan waited for Luke to come to him. OK, so he twisted the truth about how he "died" (although as he said, it was the truth from a certain point of view- a point of view which Luke accepts when he faces him in ROTJ on Endor), but he did let Luke make all his own choices.
Same for Yoda.

Neither of them abused their Jedi powers in order to get Luke to do.




It was still Anakin's choice to go


QUI-GON: And Anakin has been freed.

ANAKIN: What?!?

QUI-GON: You're no longer a slave.

ANAKIN jumps for joy! SHMI is stunned.

ANAKIN: Did you hear that, Mom? (to Qui-Gon)

SHMI: Now you can make your dreams come true, Annie. You're free! (turns to Qui-Gon) Will you take him with you? Is he to become a Jedi?

QUI-GON: Our meeting was not a coincidence. Nothing happens by accident.

ANAKIN: You mean I get to go with you in your starship?!

QUI-GON kneels down to the boy.

QUI-GON: Anakin, training to be a Jedi will not be a easy challenge. And if you succeed, it will be a hard life.

ANAKIN: But it's what I want. What I've always dreamed about. Can I go, Mom?!

SHMI: This path has been placed for you, Annie; the choice is yours alone.

ANAKIN thinks, looks to his mother, then to QUI-GON.

ANAKIN: I want to go.


If anything, Luke only went because the Empire forced his hand by destroying his farm life. Or was that the will of the force too?


As for your take on the "prophecy"- I just don't believe that when the Force 'created' Anakin, it did so with the intention of him turning to the Dark Side, becoming a Sith and wiping out the Jedi. The whole point of the Dark Side is of using the Force for selfish ends- the idea of the Force itself planning this just doesn't fit for me.


The force is neutral. It doesn't take sides between the dark and light side, unless there is an imbalance.


but Luke takes this to a whole other level- he's even older when he starts training, he doesn't have a master for a great deal of time to keep him in check, and yet he manages OK without turning to the Dark Side.

You've just proven why the old Republic Jedi were wrong to doubt Qui-Gon about training Anakin, years after his birth.


But it's Obi Wan and Yoda- Jedi of the Old Republic- who put Luke on the path to confront Vader. Why did they do that if it wasn't with the same end in mind?

LUKE
There's still good in him.

BEN
He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

LUKE
I can't do it, Ben.

BEN
You cannot escape your destiny.

LUKE
I can't kill my own father.

BEN
Then the Emperor has already won. You were
our only hope.

Seems pretty explanatory to me. Ben does not comprehend any chance of Anakin being brought back. He might have once thought this way(which we'll probably experience in EP3), but that's not part of the agenda any longer. The Jedi think they are

 

Yeah I guess so.

 

>>>>Qui-Gon is a harbinger of the will of the force. He is not responsible for the old Republic Jedi mucking up the chosen one. It is indicative of their flaws THAT THEY DID.

EVERYTHING that we?ve been shown that is instrumental in Anakin?s turn to the Dark Side was in place before Qui Gon took him away, and Qui Gon was aware of them.

The circumstances around Anakin?s fall has so far been portrayed as a direct result of Qui Gon taking him away from his mother and putting him in the Jedi Order- this was Qui Gon?s decision. He was obviously well aware of the Jedi lifestyle that he was trying to put Anakin into, as he tells him in the passage you quoted- ?Anakin, training to be a Jedi will not be a easy challenge. And if you succeed, it will be a hard life.? But Anakin just wants to do ?what I want- what I?ve always dreamed of doing.?

The Jedi Council said that he shouldn?t be trained because they saw the danger- and were proved correct. This much was clear from TPM alone, and hammered home by the events of AOTC.

So what did the Old Republic Jedi do that ?mucked up? the Chosen One, other than exactly what Qui Gon wanted them to do?


>>>You can infer an inquisitive sentiment from a statement.

Or you can infer a statement from a statement. When the statement is ?Trained as a Jedi you would have him? Revealed, your opinion is?, you can easily infer that it?s just Qui Gon?s opinion that Anakin be trained as a Jedi, and it?s been revealed.

And if that wasn?t enough, there?s the hypocrisy of him telling Obi Wan that what the council decide about Anakin?s fate ?should be enough for you?, then when they didn?t do what he wanted, he decided it wasn?t good enough for him and said he?d train him anyway.

If this isn?t a clear display of someone being too sure of themself, then I don?t know what is?


>>>It was still Anakin's choice to go

[?]

ANAKIN: But it's what I want. What I've always dreamed about. Can I go, Mom?!

SHMI: This path has been placed for you, Annie; the choice is yours alone.

ANAKIN thinks, looks to his mother, then to QUI-GON.

ANAKIN: I want to go.[/i]

It was Anakin?s choice to go, yes. But do you really think that he was ready to have this path placed before him by Qui Gon? Didn?t AOTC show that he clearly wasn?t ready to leave, as well as the consequences?

>>>If anything, Luke only went because the Empire forced his hand by destroying his farm life. Or was that the will of the force too?

If it was the Will of the Force that the droids were led there, and the droids led the stormtroopers there, then surely it was!


>>>The force is neutral. It doesn't take sides between the dark and light side, unless there is an imbalance.

The Dark Side causes imbalance. The Force creates a Chosen One to eliminate the imbalance.

Seems to me that there?s ?sides? being taken there. (Even if you overlook the fact that there?s no such thing as the ?light side? in the films- there is the Force, and there is the Dark Side of the Force.)

Me: but Luke takes this to a whole other level- he's even older when he starts training, he doesn't have a master for a great deal of time to keep him in check, and yet he manages OK without turning to the Dark Side.

>>>>You've just proven why the old Republic Jedi were wrong to doubt Qui-Gon about training Anakin, years after his birth.



No- I?ve shown that Anakin?s age and his master were not the issue.

You were saying that Anakin was supposed to turn to the Dark Side and wipe out the Jedi as part of the prophecy, which is why it was the Will of the Force that he was taken away when he was older etc. I was pointing out that Luke was even older, and managed not to turn to the Dark Side. Anakin?s turn was Anakin?s own choice.

It?s clear from the films that Luke was ready to leave, and Anakin wasn?t. And Obi Wan didn?t have to mess with the Force or cheat a bet to get Luke to come with him. Luke chose his own d

 

EVERYTHING that we?ve been shown that is instrumental in Anakin?s turn to the Dark Side was in place before Qui Gon took him away, and Qui Gon was aware of them. The circumstances around Anakin?s fall has so far been portrayed as a direct result of Qui Gon taking him away from his mother and putting him in the Jedi Order- this was Qui Gon?s decision. He was obviously well aware of the Jedi lifestyle that he was trying to put Anakin into, as he tells him in the passage you quoted- ?Anakin, training to be a Jedi will not be a easy challenge. And if you succeed, it will be a hard life.? But Anakin just wants to do ?what I want- what I?ve always dreamed of doing.? The Jedi Council said that he shouldn?t be trained because they saw the danger- and were proved correct. This much was clear from TPM alone, and hammered home by the events of AOTC. So what did the Old Republic Jedi do that ?mucked up? the Chosen One, other than exactly what Qui Gon wanted them to do?


They mucked up the chosen one because they are so stiff guarding against emotional extremes, they couldn't relate to him. That's the key. And why do you keep dodging the issue of the Jedi being clearly shown in the films as having "problems" and flaws, regardless of Anakin's emergence in their order. There is more to the Jedi destruction than just Anakin. Have you forgotten they're Palpatine's puppets? At the mercy of a corrupt senate? Robot-like demeanor and fundamental lack of wisdom?

And I can't fathom how you think it was wrong for Qui-Gon to bring the "Chosen One" to the order. HE WAS THE FRICKIN' CHOSEN ONE FOR PETE'S SAKES! If you come across the kid who is supposed to bring balance to the force, you don't ignore it. The Jedi's apprehension and fear about training him is actually indicative of how flawed and rigid they're approach to life has become. It points to a non-flexible and stiff kind of attitude, which will seal their fate in a great many ways. It's all leading to their extinction and it's about more than just training Anakin from 9 years of age. The Jedi have alot of problems in the prequel era beyond Anakin.

But it is brilliant how Lucas has used Anakin as a conduit for putting the Jedi flaws in clear perspective and focus. I believe Lucas feels their monk ways have become too extreme and that they are losing their humanity, and it was fitting that the concept of the chosen one and bringing balance to the force, played an integral part in their fall. While their time was up anyhow, due to not having a clue about what was going on in the galaxy and Sidious owning their ass, it's extremely fitting in the grand process of bringing balance to the force, that they would lose the chosen one. They've lost their way and will now pay the price.

Or you can infer a statement from a statement. When the statement is ?Trained as a Jedi you would have him? Revealed, your opinion is?, you can easily infer that it?s just Qui Gon?s opinion that Anakin be trained as a Jedi, and it?s been revealed. And if that wasn?t enough, there?s the hypocrisy of him telling Obi Wan that what the council decide about Anakin?s fate ?should be enough for you?, then when they didn?t do what he wanted, he decided it wasn?t good enough for him and said he?d train him anyway.If this isn?t a clear display of someone being too sure of themself, then I don?t know what is?


But he was completely right about Anakin being the chosen one---THE ONE WHO BRINGS BALANCE TO THE FORCE. All the Jedi are worried about is their antiquated fear of emotion, and that's all they want to focus on, when the chosen on is brought to their front door.

BUT IT'S THE FRICKIN' CHOSEN ONE, PEOPLE!

Their cold reaction to Anakin is very indicative of starting off on the wrong foot, in terms of dealing with "Chosen one". Notice how Lucas emphasizes lil' Annie's reaction to their cold dismissal of him. It's hinting at their extremity, and lack of compassion. They're a bunch of stiff monks acting more like droids than humans. Even when they realize this kid will one day bring balan

 

>>>And I can't fathom how you think it was wrong for Qui-Gon to bring the "Chosen One" to the order. HE WAS THE FRICKIN' CHOSEN ONE FOR PETE'S SAKES!

Repeated use of capital letters don?t create a connection between Chosen One and Jedi Training. You don?t seem to be seeing the knots your logic ties itself up in.

Can you explain the following;

1) Where is the connection between being the CHOSEN ONE and being trained as a Jedi?

Nowhere in TPM is this connection Qui Gon makes justified in any way. The Council are just as aware of his midichlorian count as Qui Gon is, yet they don?t think he should be trained. Yoda points out that while he believes that Anakin may well be the Chosen One, he doesn?t think he should be trained. It?s clear that only Qui Gon believes that Anakin should be trained, and he goes to great lengths- including manipulating the Force in a heavy handed and (at best) morally questionable effort to change Anakin?s destiny as he sees fit, just to give him this training. And it?s made explicitly clear that Qui Gon?s opinion is just that- his opinion.

2) If the strict rules of the Jedi Order are the reason for Anakin?s fall, why is Qui Gon apparently absolved of any blame, even though he was the one who put Anakin into the Jedi Order, and signed him up for those rules, knowing perfectly well what they entailed?

Qui Gon knew the Jedi rules perfectly well when he took Anakin away, he knew of the dangers in training him, and he knew better than any of the Council about Anakin?s relationship with his mother. (Incidentally, Shmi seems to echo the beliefs of the Jedi, judging from her last words to Anakin when he leaves- ?don?t look back.? Do you think she is equally responsible?)

The Jedi Council didn?t think Anakin should be trained as a Jedi- and yet you apparently see the Council at fault for subjecting Anakin to their rules- which they would never have done if it wasn?t for Qui Gon.

And you say that the Council were wrong to worry about Anakin?s attachment to his mother etc. even though they were proven entirely right in thinking that these dangers could lead Anakin down the dark path.

Or was it just that because Qui Gon didn't follow the rules, he didn't expect anyone else to either?

3) If the Chosen One was supposed to be trained, why did the Force bring him into being where he wouldn?t be detected and trained by them?

Did the Force make a mistake that Qui Gon thought he had to correct?
(Seems pretty arrogant to me?)

4) As Anakin is shown to already have a natural affinity for the Force, (presumably due to his midichlorian count), why did he still have to be trained as a Jedi?

Training gives him the ability to manipulate the Force that is guiding him, as well as to see his destiny and then change it. Which is exactly what he does when he turns to the Dark Side.

If it?s the Chosen One?s destiny to bring balance and he is conceived by the Force for this purpose, why does Qui Gon interfere with it, and give Anakin the power to interfere with it further?



Me: I have yet to see an explanation of why Obi Wan and Yoda chose Luke out of every individual in the galaxy to train and send in to face Vader other than because of the very family connection that you claim they ?don?t understand?.

>>>>The Force is strong in the Skywalker family, and they hid Luke and Leia(the other) for that very reason.

That leaves a whole bunch of plot holes. It doesn?t explain why Obi Wan chose that particular spot to wait for 20 years on the off chance that Luke would approach him and ask to be trained, when there must surely have been other potential Jedi elsewhere in the galaxy. Or why Luke ended up with the Lars? in the first place, where Obi Wan couldn?t train him (although we don?t yet know if it was Obi Wan who took him there...) Or why Obi Wan didn?t go and do the job of facing Vader himself, being an obviously more powerful Jedi (?last time I was but the learner?), or why

 

True, he is a great Jedi, strong in the Force and powerful with the Lightsaber.

 

) Where is the connection between being the CHOSEN ONE and being trained as a Jedi?

Nowhere in TPM is this connection Qui Gon makes justified in any way. The Council are just as aware of his midichlorian count as Qui Gon is, yet they don?t think he should be trained. Yoda points out that while he believes that Anakin may well be the Chosen One, he doesn?t think he should be trained. It?s clear that only Qui Gon believes that Anakin should be trained, and he goes to great lengths- including manipulating the Force in a heavy handed and (at best) morally questionable effort to change Anakin?s destiny as he sees fit, just to give him this training. And it?s made explicitly clear that Qui Gon?s opinion is just that- his opinion.

What you're stating is an obvious surface reading of the events of TPM regarding Anakin, Qui-Gon, and the Jedi council. What you fail to acknowledge (in any of your arguments) is the important and prevalent subtext GL has placed in his narrative, regarding the vivid contrast between Qui-Gon's rebellious and more humane perspective of the force (a balance between the living force and force of destiny) and the stiff and unwise Jedi council's predominant focus on the "Greater force of destiny". The Order's overriding emphasis on this one side of the *force equation* has led to them no longer being capable of seeing the forest for the trees. They've basically slipped and their monk-like training protocal is symptomatic of their rotten state of affairs. It's all led to them losing one of the most important attributes in the universe: WISDOM.

So the chosen one screwing up within the infrastructure of a fatally flawed Jedi code is actually the point of the prequels, and just because Yoda feared Anakin's attachment issues, doesn't mean a less rigid Jedi order couldn't have made the *Chosen one* work. Maybe a little more love, and a little less theory, hmmm. If only Qui-Gon had lived, but that wasn't meant to be. The Jedi order's time was basically up because they have allowed the galaxy to become ripe for the Sith to take over. Qui-Gon's death by Sith was an incredibly symbolic event because he was going to be Anakin's keeper. However it ended up being the will of the midichlorians to let the order screw up the *Chosen one* by THEMSELVES. It was their destiny.

When the Jedi predicted the wrongness of training Anakin because of his attachment to his mother, that doesn't absolve them from being the cold bastards they were once destiny forced their hand, and they took him on as a padawan. They could have adapted and made adjustments, especially because they were aware of what an anomaly Anakin was in their order. But nope, they continued to maintain the rigid code of their council, which is one of the main reasons the Sith are rising at a geometric rate in that era. It's also why they have no clue about anything going on in the galaxy. You can almost consider Anakin a midichlorian *test* for the Jedi, which they miserably failed.


So TPM not only foreshadowed Anakin's fall in AOTC, it gave a preview of the Jedi's cold handling of the *chosen one*, when fate forced him into their care. They couldn't adapt, and this points exactly to why they had to be the first to go for balance of the force to be achieved one day. Even once they realized he was the Chosen one, all they feared was the idea of breaking tradition by taking on a padawan so many years after birth. Prior to Qui-Gon's death, it was all refusal, not even open to the idea of altering tradition for something as important as the Chosen one. It's ridiculous for the Jedi to treat the matter so nondescript, once they were in accordance with Qui-Gon truly finding the one who was destined to bring balance to the force. They could have still decided not to train him down the line, but their method of operation just plain stinks for something as important as the *chosen one*. It would have been the exact same argument if any other generic 9 year old boy was brought before them for the training. He's too old, to much fear,blah, b

 

"I feel that he is the highlight of TPM and is what we the audience should think of when we think of a Jedi. A strong minded, doer of good that was a real force to be reckoned with. Also someone that would see a light in a certain little boy.

I wholeheartedly agree. Best thing about TPM was Qui. Qui rules, but Luke is still my fav.

 

Holy crap, I'm not reading all that useless arguing. Cliffnotes?

 

scott3eyez, would you at least acknowledge this?

"I feel that he is the highlight of TPM and is what we the audience should think of when we think of a Jedi. A strong minded, doer of good that was a real force to be reckoned with. Also someone that would see a light in a certain little boy.

 

Damn enjoyable posts MECHA-SUPERIOR!

 

Whoa- I?d missed this thread;

>>> scott3eyez, would you at least acknowledge this?

"I feel that he is the highlight of TPM and is what we the audience should think of when we think of a Jedi. A strong minded, doer of good that was a real force to be reckoned with. Also someone that would see a light in a certain little boy.

Well, I agree that Qui Gon is the highlight of TPM, and that he is what we the audience is supposed to think of when we think of a Jedi. "A strong minded, doer of good that was a real force to be reckoned with." I agree with the title of his thread, that Qui Gon is the greatest Jedi character so far. But that doesn?t mean I think he?s the best Jedi.

Qui Gon is clearly a good, well-meaning Jedi, but a flawed one. His role in TPM was all about presenting the "good, well-meaning" part of that. The results of him using the phenomenal Jedi powers to interfere with Anakin's destiny, overly focussed on the small scale, "here and now" with the consequence of not understanding the consequences of his actions are what come in the subsequent episodes as we see Anakin?s predictable fall to the Dark Side.

When he tried to force Watto into accepting a worthless currency (which is stealing), he did it with good intentions.
When he mind-tricked Boss Nass into giving him a submarine (again, stealing), he did it with good intentions.
When he cheated the dice roll, he did it with good intentions.
Every time, there were consequences to his actions that he showed no regard for.

?The road to hell is paved with good intentions.?

Qui Gon?s actions are what defines his character, and virtually every time we see him use the Force, there seems to me to be something dodgy going on. (Incidentally, could you imagine Yoda or Obi Wan using the Force to calm down a panicking Jar Jar, but ?accidentally? overdoing it?)

The idea of presenting a character in one way, who we are later supposed to look at in a different light is hardly a foreign concept to TPM- or Star Wars in general. Bear in mind that in the corrupt, stagnant Senate, we see one Senator who (from watching TPM alone) the audience is supposed to think of as the "good Senator", who vows to end corruption etc. And then there?s that cute little Chosen One himself, who is apparently going to be the best Jedi ever?

"Also someone that would see a light in a certain little boy."

Interesting to note who else in TPM seems to see the same light in the same little boy.
Clue: He isn?t a Jedi?