Discussion Qui-Gon Jinn and the Sequel Trilogy

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilers Allowed' started by Echo Base, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    I disagree that the LF didn't play a large role in the PT. In fact, I'd say the lack of focus on it was the entire crux of it. It's laid out at the very beginning of TPM when Obi-Wan says, "But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future", and Qui-Gon replies, "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the Living Force, young Padawan." That exchange is crucial to understanding the entire PT, IMO. When the future becomes clouded by the Dark Side, Yoda is unable to see the threat that's right under his nose which leads to the downfall of the Jedi and the Republic, and Anakin focusing on the future is what leads to his.

    Beyond that, there's really no indication that the LF has anything to do at all with ghosting, although I do think it probably plays a large part in it.
    Last edited by Mystery Roach, Feb 26, 2014
  2. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    I really liked Qui Gon's character and I see some interesting arguments here but it's hard to see how he is going to get screen time, this trilogy will probably be very anti-prequel. But that's just my feeling.
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  3. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not so sure..... I think there may be an attempt to tie the prequel and OT together...... heck, I still think they should add Qui-Gon to the scene at the end of ROTJ......
  4. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Sadly I think you're probably right, especially with J.J. at the helm. I enjoy taking the entire saga into account with my speculation, but the likelihood is that the ST will be distanced from the PT as much as the creators think they can get away with, and anything that they don't feel needs to be addressed or brought back from the PT probably won't be.

    @Dra--- You've asked me why I have a problem with too much nostalgia influencing the writing and this is it. What could be a great opportunity to expand on Lucas's full vision of this universe and tell a nine-part story where all of the pieces fit perfectly together and compliment each other may very well end up minimalizing the most expansive part of that universe in favor of trying to recapture the magic of the other part. I'm not saying that's what will happen, but I think it's a real possibility and it would be a major wasted opportunity if it did.
    I wish I had your confidence, but the signs I've seen have been pointing elsewhere for a while.
    Last edited by Mystery Roach, Feb 26, 2014
  5. Palpatine2016 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 3
    I think there will definitely be some ties to the PT, and being "anti-prequel" is the wrong way to go about it. I think the thing I would be most disappointed about with the ST (not saying my enjoyment of it hinges on it) is if there is absolutely no PT connection. It's all one story, so I think it should be connected.

    Naturally, this is closer in time to the OT than the PT so I definitely think it will have a closer resemblance to the OT. The movies should be a nice blend of PT, OT, and hopefully, primarily ST.

    ...I'm having deja vu with this post. :)
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  6. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    You're doing a lot of great logical work here, but none of this is actually in the movie. Did Obi-Wan focus on the LF? He was the apprentice of Qui-Gon, and Qui-Gon told him to, but we have no idea. What about Anakin? Did he ever bring up the issue of whether or not to focus on the present or the future? No. Did Sidious or Yoda mention the LF at all in AOTC or ROTS? If they had focused on the present/LF, how would that have changed things? We have no idea. How can it be the "entire crux" of it if we don't even know how it might have changed things? And did it save Qui-Gon from the Sith? Nope.

    In the new TCW content
    Show Spoiler
    Qui-Gon says he is now one with the LF. This seems to suggest that he was able to become a Ghost by becoming one with the LF. So that's a big indication the two are related. If not, he would just have said he was now one with the Force.

    *Please hide TCW spoilers [face_peace]
    Last edited by Jedi Merkurian, Mar 7, 2014
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  7. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    That's just it, I don't think Obi-Wan learned the lesson. He certainly didn't pass it on to Anakin, and I think things would have turned out very differently if he had. The fact is that the Living Force isn't explained in the movies beyond "keeping your concentration here and now where it belongs" and being the opposite of being "mindful of the future". The Unifying Force isn't even mentioned, but if one accepts it as a concept it would undoubtedly have to do with looking toward the future. I'm not sure how a greater focus on the LF would have changed things, or if it even would have, but what the films do show us over and over is that looking towards the future is fraught with danger. This even comes up again in TESB, and one could even say that it leads to Palpatine's undoing in ROTJ.

    OK I haven't had time to examine that trailer as much as I'd like so I missed that, but it seems to me that you may be placing a little too much importance on the whole LF issue. It may just be that TCW uses it as part of a simple explanation of ghosting, and that the necessity of actually understanding that as an audience is pretty low in regards to the overall story. Besides, there are lots of things in SW, especially as the saga now stands, which are brought up early on and as the story plays out we're left to interpret their significance for ourselves. The Prophecy is one of these things, and the value of the LF is another. We can draw the conclusion that Yoda and Obi-Wan developed a greater focus on the LF during their training with Qui-Gon in their seclusion, and their teachings to Luke seem to reflect this change in philosophy. Maybe these things will matter in the ST and maybe they won't, but if they were to delve into mysteries like the Whills and ghosting, then it could easily come up again. And either way I don't see why it would necessarily be important to Qui-Gon's return to know more about it, although it would make sense if it did because he may be in the best position to explain it if it became necessary to do so.
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  8. Dra--- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2012
    star 5
    Too tired to respond, but your post is an example of what I love about this board -- there are so many people who put serious thought into these concepts. I wish we could all get hired at LFL/Disney.

    Anyway, I concede that Qui-Gon in the ST would be fun. Especially if it opened up new avenues of the Force.
    Last edited by Dra---, Feb 27, 2014
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  9. A Chorus of Disapproval New Films Riot Deterrent

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    "You and I have gone too far to stop, nor can it be stopped so easily"!
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  10. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I think what Qui-Gon's reference of the "living force" (TPM) shows us, especially as Qui-Gon is able to return from the netherworld in ROTS, is that there is a substantial delta between Yoda's teachings at the time of the PT (and we assume the Jedi council) and that of more 'enlightened' Jedi. Now of course JJ may, and probably will, decide to ignore this much more philosophical topic... but I do think it could make for a really interesting movie. We also don't know to what extent it will get addressed in the up and coming TCW episodes... but it could point towards why the darkside is allowed to return in the ST (assuming it does) why Luke would possibly have issues with a setting up a new order (assuming he does) etc.

    Where the subplot/backdrop of the PT and OT was very much a philosophical one about the fall of democracy and the eventual defeat of totalitarianism, the ST's could be much more spiritual e.g. how do the Jedi, as an order, learn to embrace feelings/the living force etc? And how does the new Jedi mantra sit with a new Republic that will need defending? Will they be peacekeepers, diplomats or police?
    Last edited by Darth PJ, Feb 27, 2014
  11. blythe Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2014
    [/quote] Where the subplot/backdrop of the PT and OT was very much a philosophical one about the fall of democracy and the eventual defeat of totalitarianism, the ST's could be much more spiritual e.g. how do the Jedi, as an order, learn to embrace feelings/the living force etc? And how does the new Jedi mantra sit with a new Republic that will need defending? Will they be peacekeepers, diplomats or police?[/quote]

    Would love to see this as a subplot compared to the philosophical fall of democracy, however would JJ go for this? to me it would be easier for him to go down the route of politics as a subplot, easier for an audience get their head around, the discussion of spirituality of the force would be more of a fan related subplot.

    Suppose im getting my fix with the discussion of spirituality in TCW season 6
  12. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    the thing is that the LF was mentioned in 1 line in TPM, correct? This leads me to believe that it won't be in the ST, or if it is it will be a view/aplication of the Force and not an actual part of the Force. The Force already has a light and dark side.
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  13. fishtailsam Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    Can someone point me to where the whole, "Living Force" is different from "The Force" thing came from? QGJ says "living force" but I never never took that as a different philosophical view than has always been presented.

    I assumed it was lower case 'the living force' as opposed to capital 'The Living Force'
  14. Echo Base Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2013
    star 3
    Yes, it is implied but not very well fleshed-out. Qui-Gon keeps his mind on the present and sees only the innocent little boy, Anakin, and feels compassion for him. Obi-Wan, Yoda, Windu and the other Jedi have their minds on the future and are pre-occupied with the fact that the boy's future is "clouded". However, contradicting this is Qui-Gon's belief that the boy is the fulfilment of the prophecy. Only later do Yoda and the other Jedi come to ponder the prophecy more and come to realise they may have misinterpreted it.
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  15. Frank_TJ_Mackey Chosen One

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    Dec 6, 2000
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  16. Echo Base Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2013
    star 3
    Thanks, I will take the liberty of adding that interview to the cast quotations thread, so it doesn't get buried. Good find!
  17. Lord TW Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 25, 2012
    star 2
    I agree. QGJ never says SACRIFICE being mindful of the future...he says don't focus on the future "at the expense of the moment."

    Very different from choosing a LF vs. a UF. Very different from what we've read here.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Two.

    But as it turned out they had not misinterpreted it. The belief that Anakin was the Chosen One and the belief that it was dangerous to train him were not mutually exclusive in nature.
  19. Echo Base Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2013
    star 3
    No, I meant a contradiction in focus. Qui-Gon supposedly has his mind on the present but has an interest in the prophecy. Yoda is supposedly mindful of the future but is initially blind to the dark side falling and the true meaning of the prophecy for the Jedi.
  20. plaidphoenix Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2013
    star 4
    I'm assuming you don't mean something like this...

    [IMG]
  21. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yoda was the one who sensed great danger in Anakin's training. I wouldn't call that blind.
  22. lord_eidolon Force Ghost

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    Feb 2, 2004
    star 3
    Qui-Gon's destiny lies on a different path from the ST characters...
  23. Mystery Roach Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2004
    star 4
    Qui-Gon was interested in the fulfillment of the prophecy, but he never seemed to actually be looking ahead to it or Anakin's role in it. Rather he simply sensed the power within him and became convinced that he was the Chosen One based on that (and of course his high midichlorian count and Shmi's comments about no father only confirmed his initial suspicion).
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  24. T-R- Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2003
    star 4
    or so we think. The ST could change/clarify that.
  25. Darth PJ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2013
    star 4
    I think that's the beauty of it... As others have said, it's not fleshed out at all and is open to interpretation. But what it does do however is hint at/allude to (albeit subtle) a schism in the Jedi order... one that compelled Dooku to leave the order and join the Sith and one that compelled Qui-Gon to defy the order and, ultimately, be the first Jedi with the ability to retain their identity after death. Were the Jedi during the PT that far removed from the light that only the likes of a Dooku/Qui-Gon could see their errors? Did the Jedi have to fall in order to rediscover and rebuild with a set of different philosophies e.g love, compassion? Etc. etc.
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