Qui-Gon Jinn: Was He Really Necessary in the Whole Picture?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Loco_for_Lucas, May 8, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I've done some significant amount of thinking on TPM, particularly on the character in the thread title. After watching ROTJ and looking throught the Art of Star Wars: The Phantom Menace, and knowing his role was originally Obi-wan Kenobi's; I've come to the personal conclusion that Qui-gon wasn't necessary to the entire saga at all. The role he played would have been much more suited for Obi-wan, in finding Anakin, setting him free, defying the Council, and declaring him the Chosen One, which is a role that is ultimately wasted completely on a character that is never mentioned again, post-EIII. As of this moment, pre-III, he's fairly useless.

    Now for the obligatory "I love Qui-gon" part of the post. Yes, I loved Qui-gon, he was by far my favorite character from Phantom Menace. Especially the thought and dignity brought by Liam Neeson, his character was great.

    To quote the Human Torch, "Flame on."
  2. QuiGonHrafn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 3
    Yes he was neccesary. What I found lacking in McGregor's performance in AOTC is his Jedi talk (use the force...). Neeson was much better as the experienced Jedi. Beside Obi Wan is still an apprentice and would never have figured out Anakin was the chosen one. And on that note Qui Gon will return as a spirit in Episode III and unless Obi Wan would have died in Episode I he couldn't do that.
  3. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    I wouldn't have liked to see Obi Wan doing all the lying, cheating and stealing that is integral to Qui Gon's character, myself...

    Or the dying, come to that. ;)
  4. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I'm with you Loco. Qui-Gon was a major mistep for the saga. I also think that if Obi-Wan had had his role and lines, people would have had a character to instantly love and bridge the trilogies. I love Qui-Gon too, but that's because he is basically Obi-Wan from the OT. With Qui-Gon GL basically through consistency with the OT out of the window and made many of Obi-Wan's lines in the OT only true from a certain point of view. He certainly isn't reckless. Qui-Gon is. Argh! I have to stop this rant while I still can.

    However, I think GL will use Qui-Gon in episode 3 to explain the disappearing jedi stuff and maybe even warn Obi-Wan what is about to happen. If he plays a part in episode 3 then I will eat my words. If he plays no further part then I think well done, George.
  5. yodaschum Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 4
    Lets face it, the whole Prequel thing is a "mis-step" from start to finish.
  6. AdamBertocci Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 3, 2002
    star 7
    WOW yodaschum! Thank you for that insightful and constructive post! [face_plain]


    Anyway - no, Qui-Gon was not neccesary. Obi-Wan could have done all that. But Lucas wanted Qui-Gon.

    And Han and Chewie weren't really neccesary in ANH, were they? Lucas could have just had Luke and Obi-Wan buy their own ship and fly to Alderaan. After that, Han and Chewie don't really do anything specific for the plot until they come back to the end battle at Yavin. He coulda just given Wedge that part.

    The point is that maybe a character is not neccesary, but is added to make the world more interesting / populous / what have you. Qui-Gon added a character dynamic that Obi did not have, just as Han and Chewie provide a character dynamic that Luke did not have.



    Rick McCallum loves you!
  7. metaforcesaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2002
    star 2
    Loco- I can see your point. But I think Qui-Gon's role in the saga will be elucidated in Episode 3. Hopefully the final prequel will add some importance to Qui-Gon's role. As someone mentioned previously, he may appear as a specter in Ep3. I would also point out that we hear his voice in Ep2. That's gotta mean something.

    Liam Neeson was absolutely awesome as Qui-Gon. Why? It's impossible to say his lines and have them sound right. Try it, you'll see what I mean. But somehow, Neeson managed to achieve a realism to his character that some of the other prequel actors have not been able to do.
  8. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    The role he played would have been much more suited for Obi-wan, in finding Anakin, setting him free, defying the Council, and declaring him the Chosen One...

    Agreed, except for that last bit (not very keen on the whole "chosen one" thing).

  9. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    I agree, but it would've been better, IMHO, to have Qui-Gon introd in the middle of the film, upon arriving at Coruscant, and then have him die at the end.

    This would be a reversal of Obi-Wan's role in ANH.

    It was that way in Lucas' revised rough-draft.
  10. Stridarious Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 27, 2002
    star 6
    Well, yes. I feel that he was needed and required in Ep.I. If you look through the series you will see that without him many things could not have occured wthout his involvement in the saga.
  11. Heavenly_Angel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 29, 2003
    star 1
    of course he was necessary. he discovered Anakin, he trained Obi-Wan, and he was an important jedi in the movie. :)
  12. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Yes he was neccesary. What I found lacking in McGregor's performance in AOTC is his Jedi talk (use the force...). Neeson was much better as the experienced Jedi. Beside Obi Wan is still an apprentice and would never have figured out Anakin was the chosen one.


    But why did Obi-wan have to be the apprentice? That's been bothering me. I've been thinking about it for a year and I can't come up with a good reason for that. It was completely unnecessary, the only reason why it was done was probably because Lucas thought it would be "neat" to see the old man as a young man. Other than that, it wasn't necessary at all. We didn't need to see a young Obi-wan Kenobi; the story is about a young Anakin Skywalker. The only thing that was accomplished with Qui-gon's introduction (outside of the story) was throwing a monkey wrench into the entire saga (*braces self to be flamed*) as it created more for Lucas to explain later on. Rather than telling a straightforward story that explains what was not explained in the OT, he created more threads that need to be dealt with. Some things are irrepairable, like Obi-wan's telling Luke Yoda was "the" Jedi Master that instructed him (yeah, right, like teaching a room full of kids counts), and in essence making Obi-wan more of a liar and taking more from his character.

    He tells Luke that when he met his father, he was amazed at how strong he was with the Force, yadda, yadda, yadda, when in actuality it was Qui-gon that was amazed with Anakin and his piloting (if you can call that piloting) and so forth. So, in the end, Lucas has to milk that "From a certain point of view" line for all it's worth, when it was originally meant to cover up and semi-apologize for the stretching of the truth in ANH. That makes Obi-wan look worse. Before, he told him that it was a twist on the truth, and proceeded to tell him the story as it happened. NOW, when he sits down and tells him, he continues to lie to Luke's face. He's taking credit for someone else's actions, so not only is Ben a liar, but he's also a thief.

    And on that note Qui Gon will return as a spirit in Episode III and unless Obi Wan would have died in Episode I he couldn't do that.


    It's too early to declare that. We don't know how, or if, Qui-gon will return in Episode III.

    Anyway - no, Qui-Gon was not neccesary. Obi-Wan could have done all that. But Lucas wanted Qui-Gon.


    Agreed.

    And Han and Chewie weren't really neccesary in ANH, were they? Lucas could have just had Luke and Obi-Wan buy their own ship and fly to Alderaan. After that, Han and Chewie don't really do anything specific for the plot until they come back to the end battle at Yavin. He coulda just given Wedge that part.


    The difference is, Han and Chewie were secondary characters that remained secondary characters. Never did they assume the roles of the lead. Qui-gon, on the other hand, was a secondary character that was given the position of lead character in Phantom Menace, and then dies; thus leaving the role of secondary to Obi-wan, who has to be reintroduced in AOTC as an almost entirely new character. So Obi-wan has to get use most of AOTC to get steam so he can be the best secondary character as possible, since the main died and is never going to be really mentioned again. That would be like having Luke die at the end of ANH and having the story be about Han for the rest of the OT.

    The point is that maybe a character is not neccesary, but is added to make the world more interesting / populous / what have you. Qui-Gon added a character dynamic that Obi did not have, just as Han and Chewie provide a character dynamic that Luke did not have.


    True, he added fluff (not in a negative connotation) to an already large universe, but I still see no reason why Qui-gon, in effect, usurped Obi-wan's role. Obi didn't have that character dynamic, but it wasn't set
  13. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    No. But I like his character.
  14. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Good for you; welcome to the club.
  15. rodan70 FanForce Chapter Rep

    Chapter Rep VIP
    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2002
    star 4
    Qui Gon was awsome. When I think of a Jedi, he's the one I think of. He was very necessary. We'll see if he's got something hidden in Episode III.
  16. Punisher Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 20, 1998
    star 4
    As much as I liked Liam Nesson and Qui-Gon, no, he wasn't necessary. I liked the earlier ideas better.

    And for people that think that Qui-Gon's behavior would have been a out of character for Obi-Wan... all I can say is, from a certain point of view. ;)

    So far, Obi-Wan is big on lying in the OT...
    cheating in AOTC (He had Anakin use TWO sabers to Dooku's ONE!) and stealing (Maybe that's how he got Anakin's saber to give to Luke! ;))
    And he drinks on the job! [face_shocked]

    Anyway, it's not much of a stretch!
    [face_laugh]
  17. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    When people say that he was necessary because so many of the things that happen in the saga are triggered byb him you're forgetting that this isn't history. They happen this way because GL chose to have Qui-Gon take over many of Obi-Wan's actions and lines. As Loco says, in the early drafts, Obi-Wan had virtually all of Qui-Gon's lines and action. What do you think that tells us? That GL was originally sticking quite strictly to the backstory as set up in the OT. I'm not sure why but he threw all that out of the window when he swapped Obi-Wan's role with Qui-Gon. Imagine TPM but with Obi-Wan the same age that he is in AOTC as the main Jedi hero. (Shameless plug here, but if you want to see how it could have panned out with Obi-Wan instead of Qui-Gon check out a re-write I am working on in the return of the re-writes thread)

    He is the one that discovers Anakin, is amazed how strongly the force is with him and rebels against the council, letting his pride get in the way, which will later have terrible consequences for the galaxy. That's what GL originally planned and it's much better, because not only does it not break the OT continuity but it creates more drama for Obi-Wan's character. As it stands, he chose to train Anakin as a promise to Qui-Gon. He agrees with Yoda that he perhaps should not have trained the boy. It would be far more interesting if he was the one who believed the boy was the chosen one and gone against the council to train him. In AOTC they could warn him and Obi-Wan would not listen, believing that he could train him as well as Yoda. To me this seems like a no-brainer but GL seems pretty stuck on not showing what has already been described in the OT.
  18. DARTH_CHINA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 2001
    star 5
    Yes, he was needed.

    Qui-Gon is my. fav good guy of the whole series.

    And Liam's acting is much superior than all the OT acting together. (apart from Ian McDiarmid of course)
  19. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    But do you see how Qui-Gon is essentially Obi-Wan as originally concieved in the OT and the early drafts of TPM?

    Would there not be greater love of Obi-Wan if it had remained that way and kept OT continuity in check. As some have said, this is not really about whether or not you liked Qui-Gon or Liam Neeson as I think even those that question his place in the saga would be in agreement with you on that front.
  20. sellars1996 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2002
    star 3
    Qui-Gon was not necessary.

    As other posts have stated, Qui-Gon is a mirror of Obi-Wan in ANH. It would have been neat to see Obi-Wan that way in TPM. I was expecting to see Obi-Wan doing the things Qui-Gon did in TPM and to be the lead guy, and I initially was disappointed in Lucas' characterization of him.

    However, (gusher valve opens) I think it was brilliant to handle things as Lucas did. Qui-Gon appears to take away from Obi-Wan's character development in TPM, but having him in TPM actually gives Obi-Wan more depth later on. Our introduction to Obi-Wan is when he was young, roughly the same age as Luke in ANH and Anakin in AOTC. By seeing Obi-Wan as a padawan, we see that he was not always all-powerful, wise, seasoned, or patient. In TPM, he had a bit of intolerance (Jar Jar) and defiance even to his own master ("They can all see the boy's dangerous. Why can't you?"). Yoda was not entirely sold on allowing Obi-Wan to go through his trials, much less training Anakin, and feels Qui-Gon's defiance and maverick streak in Obi-Wan. This also allows us to speculate that Obi-Wan may not have been entirely ready to take on the responsibility of training a padawan, let alone The Chosen One in the form of Anakin, but that he only did so as a promise to a dying father figure. Furthermore, it shows continuity with his character in the OT (e.g., Obi-Wan telling Yoda in TESB that he had once been been as impatient and reckless as Luke, and telling Luke in ROTJ that in he thought he could have been as good a teacher as Yoda for Anakin, but that he was not and that his pride had terrible consequences for the galaxy).

    Maybe I am gushing too much here. It would have been interesting to see Obi-Wan as Qui-Gon and possibly given his character more continuity with the OT Obi-Wan. And the scenario raised by jasperjones would have been interesting indeed! But I think Qui-Gon, besides being a cool character, gives Obi-Wan's character more depth in ways that are not immediately seen. As with much of TPM, it is very subtle.
  21. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I see your point Sellars. I think part of the problem, and one that crops up a lot with the prequels, is the order of the episodes versus the order we have watched them. If you started with episode 1 you would be thinking that Obi-Wan is quite a cool side-kick who is starting to come into his own in episode 2. No doubt he will be even more prominent when episode 3 rolls around. I still think that when Obi-Wan starts telling Luke about the events of the prequels you would think "what the? That's not how I remember it at all" but maybe not so much as it stands out now.
  22. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Qui Gon as a mentor figure to Obi Wan was quite OK. What wasn't necessary was such a big role. I still say I would have liked a bigger role for Obi Wan in TPM, especially with regards to interaction with Anakin. As it is, all the friendship between Obi Wan and Anakin seems to be off-screen, by the time of AOTC the two are at each other's throats (an exxageration perhaps, but not a big one).

    Like I said, for me Qui Gon should have been like Old Ben and Obi Wan is Luke. Old Ben is an important role yes, but not the main one. The main one is Luke. If ANH had followed TPM, we'd get Old Ben doing everything until his death, only then will we see Luke do anything.

    And to make this post short, all my ideas about reversing the roles of Qui Gon and Obi Wan can be seen in Oakessteve's rewrite. This rewrite was the one that convinced me that Obi Wan really should have a bigger role. Read it, and see that reversing the roles is better than what you get in TPM!
  23. Loco_for_Lucas Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    If I can find it, I'll post a re-write I did of Phantom Menace with Obi-wan as the Master and Qui-gon as a Padawan that dies; also, I did away with Maul completely in the rei-write, instead I have Dooku doing all of the dealings with the Federation and fighting the Jedi, leaving Sidious' introduction for the end of AOTC. And instead of the duel happening in the power core of Naboo, I have it end on a balcony of the palace. Also, I did away with the speculation of the Sith and just had Dooku as a "Dark" Jedi not displaying any powers other than amazing skill with a saber. Also, I made Anakin a sixteen year old kid, that way, most of the conversations they have in AOTC are had in TPM; plus it would highlight the romance in a different manner. Instead of it being a romance between a Senator and a Knight, it starts as a blossoming romance between a Queen and a slave.
  24. rpeugh Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2002
    star 4
    For me, the 2 biggest reasons for Quigon's character are:

    #1. I know that no one agrees with me on this, but Quigon is Anakin's good mythological father while Obiwan is his bad mythological father.

    #2. It creates a parallel from his relationship to Obiwan to Obiwan's relationship to Anakin.
  25. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Qui-Gon was necessary. Yoda and Obi-Wan needed to learn how to retain their identity somehow, and that's where Qui-Gon comes in.


    It will also be an important part of Anakin's turn. Obi-Wan is nothing like Qui-Gon. I think that's one reason he and Anakin don't get along a lot of the time.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.