Qui-Gon Jinn: Was He Really Necessary in the Whole Picture?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Loco_for_Lucas, May 8, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    The part of the identity retention, I just see that as Lucas trying to give the character some justification for having such a large part early on in the series. Originally, it wasn't going to be explained, something that Old Obi-wan had up his sleeve, but once again, the old reliable has been stripped of his dignity. Not only is Obi-wan a liar and a thief, but he also can't figure things out on his own. Even then, it was also said that it was taught to him by Yoda, something he knew that he passed on to his student. That would have strengthened the bond between master and student, but since Obi-wan was one of thousands to be "instructed" by Yoda, it dimishes the strong bond we were being led to assume with the OT.
  2. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    I'll keep it short.

    Nothing is necessary, the point is whether you like the character/scene/etc in question.

    Me? I like Qui-Gon. And He was a early indication of the Jedi Order's strengths and weaknesses. Which made his character all that more enjoyable.

    Its sad to see much negativity once again. It really is. [face_plain]
  3. jasperjones Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 24, 2001
    star 4
    I agree. It is sad. People like myself aren't doing this deliberately, you know.
  4. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    LOL I do realise that Jasper, its just a bit sickening after a while. I mean its been what? 4 years now since TPM first came out.
    And you guys are still acting like children whining about it.
    Its fine and dandy that you don't like it but come on, move on a little.
  5. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    [snide remark]Maybe if it were a better film, we wouldn't have anything to whine about.[/snide remark]

    :p :D
  6. JKBurtola Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2003
    star 4
    :p

    Well you're comment makes no sense really, Loco.
  7. Trojan_Sock Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 27, 2003
    star 4
    "And Liam's acting is much superior than all the OT acting together."

    While I don't agree that Qui-gon was necessary, I did find Liam's acting superior.

    "Its sad to see much negativity once again. It really is." [face_plain]

    Thanks for the example. [face_laugh]

    Here's a repost of a theory from the Spoilers section.


    The Will of the Force

    Qui-gon saves Anakin, because he feels it is the will of the Force. Unfortunately for the Force, the Jedi council does not agree with Qui-gon, and doesn't want Anakin trained.

    Therefore, Qui-gon is unwittingly sacrificed for the good of the Prophecy.

    "Were it not for Qui-Gon's unruly views, he would have undoubtedly been on the Jedi Council. The Council, however, felt Anakin's future seemed clouded and uncertain, and deemed the boy too old to begin training and dangerously full of fear and anger." - OS

    Already tired of Qui-gon, and scared of Anakin, the council prevents him from training Anakin as a Jedi, but Kenobi stepped forth and said that he would train Anakin. Unfortunately, Obi-wan is not a Jedi Knight yet. While these hurdles are eventually resolved, it is only because Qui-gon is killed and Kenobi makes a dying promise to him that the Council decides to change its mind. Coincidence?

    Therefore, the only way Anakin would be accepted by the council and trained by Kenobi is if Qui-gon were removed.

    Blasphemy, you say? I wouldn't blame you, but consider...The character of Qui-gon wasn't added until late in the filming. There are cut scenes of Obi-wan fighting Maul in the deserts of Tatooine. So why would Lucas create Qui-gon, if he was simply to become a "red shirt?"

    Easy...so that he would die. :eek:

    Okay, bear with me, because another bird is killed with this "stone."


    Force Ghosts

    In addition to the above, Lucas has to show where Force ghosts come from. Well...to be a "ghost", someone has to die.

    Qui-gon's death parallels those of Kenobi, Yoda, and Anakin, in that they all died in the service of the Prophecy. Qui-gon and Kenobi were made Force ghosts to insure that the Prophecy was fulfilled. Yoda, Anakin, and Kenobi were made Force ghosts for their contributions to the Prophecy (for a nice "happy-ending" get-together.)

    Consider when we first hear Qui-gon...when Anakin kills all the Tusken Raiders. This is Anakin's first step into the Dark Side. Qui-gon, who has been one with the Force, suddenly finds himself aware of everything that is going on around him.

    Yoda: While meditating, Yoda had felt a traumatic event befall young Anakin Skywalker. At that very moment, he also heard the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn, a Jedi Master slain a decade previous. It was impossible for a Jedi to retain his identity after becoming one with the Force, yet he had heard it.

    It's impossible for a Jedi to do it, but not the Force. The Force saw that Anakin was veering away from the path of the Prophecy. Qui-gon, who is well acquainted with both Anakin and Yoda, was "brought back", and will be sent as a messenger to Yoda in Ep.III

    Kenobi is seen throughout the OT, because his was a special case. Qui-gon was unwittingly sacrificed for the Prophecy, but Kenobi did so by choice. At first, I used to think that Kenobi sacrificed himself to demonstrate to Luke how evil Anakin was. Luke sees Vader strike him down, and this makes him want to kill Vader. This made sense under the "Kenobi wants Vader dead" mindset.

    Recently, however, I've realized that something different was happening. Kenobi was trying to get Luke off the DS, because he wasn't ready to face Vader or the Emperor. On his way back to the MF, he is intercepted by Vader. Kenobi holds Vader off with little effort, but then he sees Luke. Again, I always thought Kenobi was thinking "Okay, Luke. Watch Vader kill me!" Now, it occurs to me that, />/>
  8. _dArTh_SoLo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 4
    I believe he was in a way, because he sets the foundation for what Obi Wan will become. I mean, for Obi, it makes him a much more dynamic character...seeing what he was and how he evolves as a person. I think the addition of qui gon was great.
  9. DarthSil Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2003
    star 4
    Qui-Gon bashing? This is a new high in low. :(
  10. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    I believe he was in a way, because he sets the foundation for what Obi Wan will become. I mean, for Obi, it makes him a much more dynamic character...seeing what he was and how he evolves as a person. I think the addition of qui gon was great.


    But Qui-gon, for the most part, WAS Obi from the Classic Trilogy, and by giving the relationship with Anakin to Qui-gon, Lucas cripples the character even more. We don't see them having any moments together, where that "father-son" relationship so many people are talking about can really be seen; instead, he gives those scenes to an unnecessary character never to be spoken of again. Obi-wan's relationship with Anakin, as well as Obi-wan himself, are lessened since we never see them in moments of togetherness. We are thrust into their hostility and we are left to assume they are friends since everyone says so and we never see it.
  11. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    Loco is right. Qui Gon's role should have been given to Obi Wan. Of course QG could still have been in the film and had a large role.

    Additionally, it would have been great to have Dooku in TPM! That way his betrayal and later joining with the Sith could have actually had some dramtic weight to it.
  12. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    Was He Really Necessary in the Whole Picture?

    Well yes, if it had been another Jedi, Shmi would have been saved and Anakin wouldn't have turned to the darkside. The films would stop at TPM :(
  13. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    But if Anakin was truly the Chosen One, that should not stop him from bringing Balance to The Force.
  14. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    Qui-Gon serves a couple of purposes, one of which has already been stated: Explaining the force ghosts. To have a ghost, you had to have a death. Otherwise, how would Kenobi know in Episode IV that if Vader killed him, he'd gain a new level of ability?

    The other purpose he serves is that he allows us to see Obi-Wan as a Padawan, and therefore, we get to see exactly how a Jedi Padawan should be, and how the master/apprentice relationship is supposed to be. Then when we see Obi-Wan as Anakin's apprentice in ATOC, we see just how disfunctional their relationship really is.

    I don't think any of it contradicts the OT, or takes away from Obi-Wan's character in it. Obi-Wan is reckless in TPM, just in a different manner than Qui-Gon. And he seemed every bit as reckless in TPM as Luke in ANH-in other words, a bit cocky, but basically well grounded. None of them are as reckless as ATOC Anakin, who's almost a bona-fide nut at times.
  15. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    Otherwise, how would Kenobi know in Episode IV that if Vader killed him, he'd gain a new level of ability?

    Yoda could have told him. I mean 900 years of studying the force is enough to time to figure out this mystery on his own, not to mention the thousands of years of previous Jedi who surely would have written down thier experiences and accounts for later generations to study and build upon. Personally that makes more sense to me then well..because they were involved with some prophacey that keeps getting derailed and needs to be brought back on track via supernatural means, blah.

    The other purpose he serves is that he allows us to see Obi-Wan as a Padawan, and therefore, we get to see exactly how a Jedi Padawan should be, and how the master/apprentice relationship is supposed to be. Then when we see Obi-Wan as Anakin's apprentice in ATOC, we see just how disfunctional their relationship really is.

    Why is this necessary? By just calling Anakin an aprentice brings with it the assumption he's supposed to be reverant and respectful to his master and do what Obi-Wan tells him to but when he doesn't we should automatically know things aren't going like they should. A lot of things need to be shown, but I don't think this is one of them.

    Obi-Wan is reckless in TPM, just in a different manner than Qui-Gon. And he seemed every bit as reckless in TPM as Luke in ANH-in other words, a bit cocky, but basically well grounded.

    How so? Obi-Wan from start to finish has been the picture perfect Jedi. That's the problem. The one time he and Qui-Gon have a spat is when Obi-Wan is griping about Qui-Gon's recklessness.

    And when was Luke ever cocky? Winey yes, but I don't remember him ever displaying a cockiness in ANY of the movies. Han was the cocky one.

  16. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    I think Qui-Gon is a necessary character for these reasons:

    1.To be the cause of the division between Anakin and Obi-wan. When Qui-Gon first tells Obi-wan that he's bringing Anakin along, Obi-wan didn't like it one bit and he even called Anakin just "another pathetic lifeform. When Anakin is told by the council that he won't be trained and later on sees that Obi-wan shares their opinion to Qui-Gon, Anakin shows subtle resentments toward Obi-wan which is evident in Qui-Gon's funeral and at the celebration.

    In the end, these 2 characters become Master and Apprentice by default as a result of Qui-Gon's death.

    2. To explain how a Jedi can return to the living as a ghost after he is killed.

    3. To show that he could've been a potential Jedi Master for Anakin had he not been killed by Darth Maul.

    and

    4. To show how a traditional relationship between Master and Padawan is molded by making Obi-wan the Padawan so that it'll explain why Anakin doesn't fit the traditional standards of how a Jedi should behave.

    Not everything that was covered in the Classic Trilogy needs to be fleshed out because it already protrayed Obi-wan as a liar when Lucas decided to make Anakin and Darth Vader the same person in ESB. If Obi-wan were the one to discover Anakin, then their relationship would be like the one Anakin had with Qui-Gon but the problem is Anakin will have no reason to go Dark Side, to turn to Palpatine for help, to go against Obi-wan and the Jedi, nor to help Palpatine wipe them out and take over the universe.

    Anakin will only rely on Obi-wan to help him since he'll be the one to realise Anakin's dream of being a Jedi instead of Qui-Gon thus throwing away any motivations for Ani to go Dark Side.

    GDS-Putting Dooku in TPM is unnecessary because it'll take away the mysteriousness of this character. It's like saying the Predator should've had more screentime in pt. 1 of said title movie.

    "Yoda could have told him."

    Yoda doesn't know that it can be done until AOTC when he hears Qui-Gon's ghost yelling for Anakin not to massacre the Tuskens.

    "Why is this necessary? By just calling Anakin an apprentice brings with it the assumption he's supposed to be relevant and respectful to his master and do what Obi-wan tells him to but when he doesn't we should automatically know things aren't going like they should. A lot of things need to be shown, but I don't think this is one of them."

    This has to be shown so that we'll know that Anakin is not a traditional Jedi by any sense due to the fact that he's too old to be trained, he has attachments to his mother and Padme, and that he has a real problem with authority.

    "How so? Obi-wan from start to finish has been the picture perfect Jedi."

    When Obi-wan twirls his lightsaber in most scenes, especially in the fight with Darth Maul shows his recklessness. Even his vow to Yoda that he'll train Anakin despite the Council's disapproval shows his recklessness.

    "when was Luke ever cocky?"

    When he and Han Solo were shooting at 4 TIE fighters who tried to prevent them from escaping. When Luke blew up one of the fighters and showed it to Han, Han said "Great, kid! Don't get cocky".

  17. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Not everything that was covered in the Classic Trilogy needs to be fleshed out because it already protrayed Obi-wan as a liar when Lucas decided to make Anakin and Darth Vader the same person in ESB. If Obi-wan were the one to discover Anakin, then their relationship would be like the one Anakin had with Qui-Gon but the problem is Anakin will have no reason to go Dark Side, to turn to Palpatine for help, to go against Obi-wan and the Jedi, nor to help Palpatine wipe them out and take over the universe.


    Anakin would still fall, it doesn't even have anything really to do with Qui-gon. Just because Anakin would have had a "good master," doesn't mean he wouldn't have fallen; we were already under the impression Obi-wan was a good master (Pre-PT) and that Anakin made a conscious decision to turn. Being introduced to the power that was given to him by the Force, he could have grown hungry for more, to the point where he would say screw it all and turn to the Dark Side if it meant more power.
  18. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    To be the cause of the division between Anakin and Obi-wan.

    I think being friends with Palpatine is good enough to get that job done.

    Besides it would be more dramatic to see too really good friends be ripped apart by Anakin's choice to take the easy path. Too bad that will never happen now.
  19. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Don't be so certain. During war, soldiers on the same side form very close and lasting friendships together. I'm confident Ep. III will start out with a much closer bond between Anakin and Obi-Wan. I also think Obi-Wan will consider Anakin an equal at that point.
  20. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    From the Anakin's introductory statements in AOTC, he and Obi-wan had already been through a lot together, why would this be any different? Is it the situation where their lives are on the line, like in real war? Then they should already be amazingly close since they have their lives on the line everyday simply from being Jedi.
  21. Jedi_Master201 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2001
    star 5
    Well Anakin will be much more mature. He will have been leading troops, and he will have been married, both of which tend to make you less focused on yourself and more on the needs of others. This will add to the friendship, and Obi-Wan's respect for Anakin.


    Also, I don't think a Jedi's life is filled with as much excitement as the two will be facing throughout the course of the war. These guys are not soldiers, as Mace says, but more like police. But even that type of work is often avoided. They mainly do diplomatic work (EU aside).
  22. BlackPool Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2000
    star 4
    That would be a step up. We definatly need to see more of their friendship before Anakin turns on him.

    <<"Yoda could have told him."

    Yoda doesn't know that it can be done until AOTC when he hears Qui-Gon's ghost yelling for Anakin not to massacre the Tuskens. >>

    I know that's the way it is because that's the way Lucas chose to use Qui-Gon. My point is that without Qui-Gon or at least with Qui-Gon in a different capacity the same story could have been told in a better way.

    <<This has to be shown so that we'll know that Anakin is not a traditional Jedi by any sense due to the fact that he's too old to be trained, he has attachments to his mother and Padme, and that he has a real problem with authority. >>

    The fact that they keep calling Anakin "the chosen one" tells me all that. Seeing him complain that "Obi-Wan is holding me back" is enough to tell me that he has a problem with Obi-Wan's training methods. Seeing Obi-Wan as an aprentice has nothing to do with it.


    <<"How so? Obi-wan from start to finish has been the picture perfect Jedi."

    When Obi-wan twirls his lightsaber in most scenes, especially in the fight with Darth Maul shows his recklessness. Even his vow to Yoda that he'll train Anakin despite the Council's disapproval shows his recklessness. >>

    It's never potrayed as reclessness in the Samurai movies that this scene was immulating. So like them before, I think it's ownly show a style of fighting. Now I will say that Obi-Wan was a bit reckless at the beginning because he was in rage that Maul killed his friend and master. But he took control back from that and thus won the fight and be extentin conquered the darkside within him which led to him becomming a full fledge Knight. So this scene just serves to further illustrate Obi-Wan as a picture perfect Jedi.

    <<when was Luke ever cocky?"

    When he and Han Solo were shooting at 4 TIE fighters who tried to prevent them from escaping. When Luke blew up one of the fighters and showed it to Han, Han said "Great, kid! Don't get cocky".>>

    You're kidding right? That was meant to be humorous because:

    1. Luke was just excited that he actually hit a TIE. He was being the OPPOSITE of cocky.

    2. By Han tell him that it's a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. It's FUNNY. That's all it's meant to be.

    But even if you ruefully throw all the humor out and take it as a character defining moment it still doesn't illustrate Luke as being cockey because Han is telling him DON'T GET... as in don't become as in "You're not cockey yet, but don't go there."






  23. Tracer_Bullet Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2003
    star 1
    Qui-Gon bashing? This is a new high in low.

    I agree with that. I thought that Qui-Gon was a wonderful character, and while he might not have been necessary in the "whole picture," I think he was a great addition. To be certain, the The Phantom Menace would have been much worse without him--Liam's portrayal of the character was superb, his performance as good as those in the OT.

    I find it ironic that on the one hand some people criticize Lucas for not making the Star Wars universe bigger than it is (having Anakin build C-3PO, etc.), but on the other hand, you have people complaining about the addition of a completely new character. You can have one, or you can have the other, but you can't have both.
  24. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Well Anakin will be much more mature. He will have been leading troops, and he will have been married, both of which tend to make you less focused on yourself and more on the needs of others. This will add to the friendship, and Obi-Wan's respect for Anakin.


    You don't know that. Not even Yoda knows that. :p By that rationale, he should have been mature and disciplined by the time of AOTC as a Padawan nearing the end of his training, having been instilled with Jedi doctrine for ten years and all, but that wasn't the case, was it? ;)

    Also, I don't think a Jedi's life is filled with as much excitement as the two will be facing throughout the course of the war. These guys are not soldiers, as Mace says, but more like police. But even that type of work is often avoided. They mainly do diplomatic work (EU aside).


    There's still more danger than Joe Galaxy's average life, as Anakin suggested in his discussion about "aggressive negotiations" (I think that's what it was called). Ten years of danger (okay, maybe five) didn't change how Obi-wan and Anakin interacted, why would three of war? The added responsibility? The it really detracts from being a Jedi and Yoda was just jerking Luke's chain in ESB with all that "you will be" talk, since Luke would have been more mature and developed if he stayed behind as a commander for the Alliance than he would if he pursued his training.
  25. ShaakRider Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2002
    star 2
    "Not everything that was covered in the Classic Trilogy needs to be fleshed out because it already protrayed Obi-wan as a liar when Lucas decided to make Anakin and Darth Vader the same person in ESB."
    :mad:
    OK, that's one thing, which can be justified, in fact almost anyone would lie in that situation, I guess. But yes, he lied once, so let's make all his memories also false. :mad:

    "If Obi-wan were the one to discover Anakin, then their relationship would be like the one Anakin had with Qui-Gon but the problem is Anakin will have no reason to go Dark Side, to turn to Palpatine for help, to go against Obi-wan and the Jedi, nor to help Palpatine wipe them out and take over the universe."

    Anakin could turn to the DS with a Qui-Gon-like character as his master as well. Only it could have some dramatic effect, instead of being the natural and unavoidable consequence of Anakin's troubled life [face_plain].
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.