CT Qui Gon Jinn's Force Ghost in the end of RotJ

But wasn't that scene meant to be about Luke and his friends and friendship in general? Nobody in the Endor scene ever knew Qui Gon besides the force ghosts.

 

Not proven in the films. Just an assumption.

Doesn't that describe a lot of historical Jedi, including the ones killed in Order 66?

I don't think it was said that he lost the ability. In fact I think his voice was heard on a later occasion. The 90s EU did seem to largely avoid appearances by the ghosts, and the Thrawn books seemed to indicate that Ben would stop appearing, though I think even that was revisited in time. And there is also "Yoda will always be with you."

 

Sure it does, but most/all of the Jedi killed in Order 66 lacked a Force-sensitive person (Padawan, old Master etc.) to whom they were close in life, who was still alive him/herself. That would also reconcile the appearance of Qui-Gon in that illustration with his absence in the ROTJ ending: perhaps Anakin can see him but Luke, never having met Qui-Gon, can't.

As for the historical, pre-Order 66 Jedi, from the way Yoda talks at the end of ROTS it sounds as if Qui-Gon is the first to (re?)discover this secret (and Yoda having been around for 900 years would presumably know if such a thing had existed before).

 

That is a copout, the only thing we know about being the chosen one is that he is destined to destroy the Sith. That isn't a link, no matter how much you may want it to be.

 

So, Anakin never being taught how to Force Ghost is an assumption.


Hysterical. So, it's not in the films and that makes it an assumption, so that means we should assume that he was taught it? You are too funny. You see the problem here, right?

 

Every possible (and valid) explanation is a copout for you. Tell us something we don't know.

No. Again, we know that he was created by the Force and that it's unusually strong with him, thus making it perfectly understandable that he is capable of becoming a Force ghost...

 

It's a copout because it's coming from fans, not the movie. You keep saying "it's understandable", that's a copout. You have to use qualifiers like that because you have to concede that that link is not found in the movie, it's being supplied by you and other fans, and other outside sources. NOT FROM THE FILMS. You accept it because you want to. I see it as a rationalization.

So, the plothole is still a plothole. A plothole is when something defies the established logic of a film, or in this case a series of films. This fits the bill to a tee.

You're right, I don't get swayed by fan theories very often. I judge the movies on their merit. Anakin should not be a force ghost given what's on screen. It was fine before they introduced the idea that it was something that had to be taught, nobody ever taught Anakin. This goes against the established logic in the films. That is a plothole, nothing on here changes that.

 

Just because a movie doesn't explain something through dialogue, doesn't mean it isn't explained at all. It isn't explained in the movies how Luke was able to use the Force at the beginning of TESB, it doesn't make it a plothole either.

No, it's being supplied by what's in the movie. The movie establishes Anakin as a creation from the Force and that he's unusually strong with it. How is it a plothole that he can retain is counciousness through the Force after he dies without any training? It's a matter of connecting the dots.

And you don't accept it because you don't want to. I see it as stubbornness.

What plothole? I don't see any...

No, Anakin can be a Force ghost given what's established on screen.

What? If it didn't need to be taught, why didn't Luke saw every single Jedi that died?

That we know of. But then again, he didn't need to.

You can say the same thing as much as you want, it won't be less false.

 

Luke used the force to destroy the death star. Luke is aware of the force at the end of the last movie, this does not contradict the logic established in the series. I don't think you know what a plot hole is. That's probably why you're having such a hard time with this.

Anakin having an ability that has to be taught despite never being taught directly goes against the established logic built in the story. It requires you to create a reason why. Repeating that created reason over and over again isn't changing the fact that it's a plothole.

You can say "he's the chosen one" until the sun burns out. It's still a plot hole. Anakin's status as the chosen one has never once been shown to be a pathway to this ability, or any ability that is out of the ordinary. Being strong with the force is not shown to be a pathway to this ability,. it is clearly spelled out that this is something that must be taught and learned. His status as the chosen one is shown to mean that he was destined to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force, not party on Endor with his kid. You're adding this other crap to that to make this fit. IT'S BEING SUPPLIED BY YOU, NOT THE FILM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Being strong with the force is not shown to be a pathway to the ability. Just the opposite, it's shown that being strong with the force isn't enough. It's clearly spelled out that
.

 

It's never explained how Luke was suddenly able to pull objects with the Force. It's not explained in ANH either. Yet we are able to assume that Luke's ability with the Force had grown as time went on.

Who are you to decide that someone who was created by the Force needs to learn such ability from someone else?

No. It requires you to connect the dots.

Repeating that it's a plothole over and over doesn't make it a fact either.

No, it isn't. Want to try again?

Yes it does, thus making so many have an interest in him.

And have an unnatural connection with the Force.

No arguments?

 

The movies tell us that it must be taught. Why must Kenobi and Yoda commune with Jinn to learn the secret? I didn't make this up, or anything else. That's the difference between me and you. Everything I'm saying comes from the films.

All you are doing is proving to me that you don't understand plot holes. Again you reference Luke, clearly you don't understand the difference. But there is a difference.

Luke's abilities do not contradict the logic of the films. Anakin using an ability that must be taught, despite never being taught, does.

 

No, the movie doesn't tell us that someone who was created by the Force needs to be taught. Try again.

The only difference is that you accept one and deny the other.

 

Ridiculous. If this link exists between his chosen one status and force ghosting, show it to me now. Show it to me, show me which scenes explore this. Any one will do.

 

Qui Gon was quite gone in ROTJ.
BADUMP TESH

 

Anakin is a Jedi who dies. We hear about Qui-Gon being able to communicate after death, and then we see Obi-Wan become a ghost after he dies. The fact that Anakin is a dead Jedi alone links him to ghosting.

 

Then all Jedi who die fit that bill according to you? All the order 66 Jedi for example, every Jedi killed in the purge?

That's not what most here are saying. That's a different take.

Obi-Wan and Yoda receive training from Jinn during their lives, as shown to us in EPIII. It is heavily implied that this is necessary. Are you suggesting that it was not?

 

Qui-Gon training them was never shown in ROTS, it was mentioned. Also, Qui-Gon seemingly learned the power on his own, so why wouldn't the Chosen One be able to do the same?

 

And why not Windu or any of the other dead Jedi for that matter? Why not the whole Jedi order?

From what you seem to be saying, there is no reason to not bring them all back.

And as to your point about them not actually showing them being trained, we are told that Yoda has already been in contact with Jinn. and that Kenobi will receive training. So, it is covered in film.

 

....because none of them are the Chosen One. Was it ever mentioned in the saga that Mace Windu was the Chosen One!?

 

Why should that make a difference. Jinn wasn't the chosen one either. You just used Jinn as evidence earlier.

You can't have it both ways

When you look through this thread, and I invite everyone to do so, the explanations for this plot hole are all over the place. There is a reason for that.


Really, you aren't even putting together a cohesive theory. Earlier you said Anakin fits the criteria because he's a dead jedi, and that Jinn can communicate after death . Well, every Jedi who has died fits that criteria.

 

You keep jumping back and forth with your answers. Its hard to explain because it seems you won't listen.

It's capable to learn the power on your own without being taught, we see this from Qui-Gon. So basically ANY JEDI has the potential to learn this power, however we can assume it is difficult/rare to learn because Yoda and Obi-Wan seem surprised by it. Anakin is the Chosen One of the Jedi, and has a higher midichlorian count that any known Jedi, so it can be assumed he has a greater connection to the Force and more Force potential than an average Jedi. For instance in TPM Anakin is the only human who can podrace..its heavily suggested that he can do so because he is the Chosen One. Its by no means certain, but for the most part we can assume that Anakin learns how to become a ghost at the end of ROTJ because of his natural affinity to the Force.

 

Then you are in fact just making the "he's the chosen one" argument. And I'll ask you again, so what? What link is there between being the chosen one and force ghosting. The answer you gave before was "that he died", a non answer. Here,

That isn't much of a link. As I said, that applies to all dead Jedi, it says nothing.

There are lots of powerful Jedi. Nothing in the movies really states that the Chosen one will have extra abilities, he's never once shown to have extra abilities. He has a destiny to destroy the Sith and is powerful. Destroying the Sith makes him unique, being powerful in and of itself does not.

I'm not bouncing around, I've been consistently saying that his status as the chosen one in and of itself doesn't explain away this ability. You say that he can pod race because he's the chosen one, I think it's because he has Jedi potential. It's even referred to as "Jedi reflexes" and a "Jedi trait". In other words, unusual for a run of the mill human perhaps. But not out of the ordinary when compared to the Jedi.

This force ghost thing is a structural problem with the story. It's a plot hole.

 

I just gave a you the reasoning behind the Chosen One argument. Saying "so what" and denying it doesn't change what occurs in the films.

-In TPM Anakin is the only human who can podrace: If it is because he has Jedi potential, why is he the ONLY human who can do it? There is podracing all over the galaxy, surely there are other Force sensitive humans in the galaxy no?
-He destroys the TF ship as an inexperienced boy, while professional pilots cannot. And as we all know, there is no luck, only the Force.
-In AOTC Obi-Wan explicitly states: "his abilities have made him arrogant" Who would be arrogant unless they had superior abilities.
-You stated he's "powerful". Where does this extra "power" come from? Are you referring to physical strength or a deeper connection to the Force? If he is indeed more "powerful" then Force "powers" would come more easily for him wouldn't they? Perhaps a Force "power" like Force ghosting?

 

It was established at the end of Revenge of the Sith that it is possible to learn the 'Force Ghost' ability after death. Qui-Gon even explicitly said so himself in his very unfortunately deleted scene with Yoda: "When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery...". In the very same conversation Qui-Gon goes on to say: "It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills.", referring to the being who taught him of this ability and making it known to the characters and to the readers of the script that it is indeed possible to learn of this ability after death. It can not be learned by just any Jedi, however. "It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed."

Now, in comes Anakin's redemption and fulfillment of his destiny at the end of Return of the Jedi. I personally can't think of a more accurate way to describe Anakin's sacrifice than as an example of "...compassion, not greed.". The man sacrificed himself annihilating the Empire's rule over the galaxy, destroying the Sith, and bringing balance to the Force.

Now the only real remaining question seems to be: 'Why did it take Qui-Gon Jinn so long to learn how to do this while Anakin was able to learn in so short a time?' Well, in Attack of the Clones, we hear Qui-Gon beginning to break through the barrier between the Netherworld of the Force and the real world. When does this happen? Why, when Anakin is in a moment of deep pain and rage, of course. "No Anakin, no!", he manages to scream as Anakin mourns the death of his mother and slaughters the Tusken Raiders surrounding him (note also the ties to Anakin's suffering as Qui-Gon's voice subtly fades into Darth Vader's breathing. Qui-Gon actually doesn't appear in a film again until Revenge of the Sith during another moment of intense darkness directly involving Anakin). Yoda (a Jedi that Qui-Gon would later go on to train to embrace this very same power) intercepts this plea from beyond but is unable to completely comprehend or understand exactly what it is until Qui-Gon becomes strong enough to directly communicate with him in Revenge of the Sith.

In the very same film that Qui-Gon's voice was first heard by Yoda, Anakin was constantly complaining that, despite being trained for less time than most of his peers, he was just as ready as any other Jedi his age to go through the trials and advance his role in the Jedi Order. Being the Chosen One he always had a very direct connection to the Force (in The Phantom Menace, before even receiving any training at all, the Force had surrounded him and contributed to the skills of the already great pilot). His unique and special bond with the Force round him allowed Anakin to learn various skills and powers faster than anyone could believe. Why would this be any different after death?

 

Deleted scenes are exactly that, deleted. They are not the film