CT Qui Gon Jinn's Force Ghost in the end of RotJ

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Jan 29, 2013.

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  1. Seagoat Music and PT Section Sentinel (and PT Trivia Host)

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    According to Lucas, the deleted scenes are still considered canon, unless they directly contradict the scenes that are in.
  2. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    Then you and I just simply don't agree, Windu is shown to be powerful. There is a Jedi council filled with what are supposed to be wise and powerful Jedi. Anakin is powerful, again, so what?

    Luke was just a farm boy bumpkin, he did something similar. I just don't find this "chosen one" catch all argument all that convincing. He's arrogant? OK, he's a powerful arrogant Jedi, Yoda tells us that is a growing problem among young Jedi.



    That isn't how movies are judged, that doesn't change for Lucas.

    And Lucas says lots of things when confronted with issues in his movies. If he wanted a concept to be in those movies he should have put it in.


    Now, I can buy that maybe this is a secret that people can learn after death. But then, that means it doesn't have to be taught during life. And then that means it should be open to any Jedi who dies. After all, Jinn could guide any of them.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 15, 2013
  3. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

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    Which, in this particular case, is extremely unfortunate. That was one of the most fascinating scenes in the saga.

    But regardless, even without that scene the films still directly tell us that Qui-Gon learned of this ability, and demonstrate time and time again that Anakin was indeed a very fast learner (despite his intentionally-ironic quip to Count Dooku in Attack of the Clones). So even without that deleted piece of exposition Anakin's appearance at the end of Return of the Jedi still makes sense. Film is, after all, a primarily visual art form, and everything that we needed to know had been shown to us beforehand.
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  4. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

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    Which is actually quite interesting to think about. For all we know, he could have somehow gotten in contact with other Jedi and taught them the very same thing.
    Last edited by bstnsx704, Apr 15, 2013
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  5. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    It made perfect sense at the time Jedi was made, it makes much less sense once you have to have Jinn teaching people how to do it.
  6. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

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    Nah, it makes the same amount of sense in either instance. Either way Anakin died on the second Death Star and came back on Endor. The Prequels simply add the fact that someone (Qui-Gon, Yoda, Obi-Wan, or perhaps a combination of all three) taught or assisted him in the time between those two events.
  7. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    But nobody taught Anakin anything, that's the problem.
  8. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

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    The simple fact that he was able to appear to Luke at the end is proof that he was.

    Sure, we never got a scene with the ghost Jedi showing him step by step how it was done. But by that logic Luke never built that lightsaber that he used in Return of the Jedi because we never actually saw it happen.
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  9. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    When would he have been taught? He spent the past couple of decades as Vader. He wasn't getting taught anything then. If I'm saying this is a plot hole, telling me it's not because we see him as a ghost is not a valid counter argument in and of itself
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 15, 2013
  10. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

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    He was taught after dying on the Death Star and before appearing to Luke on Endor.
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  11. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    Then a really big question remains, if the trick is to learn how to keep your identity after death, how can that be taught after death? If you have no identity, you can't be taught anything, and if you haven't been taught how you can you have an identity?

    See the problem here?
  12. I Are The Internets Force Ghost

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    Can the Force Ghosts change their age appearance too?
  13. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

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    "Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force."

    "Through the Force things you will see. Other places. The future...the past. Old friends long gone."

    From the very beginning the idea that death is the ultimate connection to the Force has always been a part of Star Wars. It is not the be all, end all. It is just a "natural part of life". Qui-Gon was simply able to transcend that connection in previously unprecedented ways in order to manifest himself himself in the real world via the Force to communicate with Obi-Wan and Yoda.
    Last edited by bstnsx704, Apr 15, 2013
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  14. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    Transform into the force, that means losing your identity, that doesn't change my point in the slightest. The problem remains. If you need the secret to maintain your identity, you need to have been taught it before your death. Otherwise, you have no identity to teach.
  15. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

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    Oh, you've seen what its like after death in the Star Wars films? :)
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  16. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    @Captain Tom Coughlin "Then you and I just simply don't agree, Windu is shown to be powerful. There is a Jedi council filled with what are supposed to be wise and powerful Jedi. Anakin is powerful, again, so what?"

    Do you remember the scene in TPM where Obi-Wan states that Anakin has the highest midichlorian count of any Jedi?
    That's what.

    Do you remember when Obi-Wan asks the Council "Is he not the Chosen One?"
    That's what.

    There are other powerful Jedi but those statements are never made about them. It is made painstakingly clear that Anakin is a special case among the Jedi.
    Who said it's a secret?
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  17. Darth Dominikkus Jedi Knight

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    What about his training Obi Wan? There was force knowledge taught there. As well as his midochlorian speech to Anakin. There was some teaching before ROTS.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Jedi Grand Master

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    "If you choose this path to immortality, you must listen now, before your consciousness fades."
  19. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    I think he was referring to teaching them about ghosting specifically. Althoug Yoda only mentions it in ROTS, it's never shown when it started. Yoda could have been communing with Qui-Gon for 10 years for all we know.
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  20. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    Thats not from any of the movies..lol

    "You either die the hero or live long enough to see yourslef become the villain."
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, Apr 15, 2013
  21. Arawn_Fenn Jedi Grand Master

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    According to Lucas the first time he even hears Qui-Gon's voice is in AOTC.

    It doesn't have to be. It answers the so-called "plot hole" of training the dead.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Apr 15, 2013
  22. bstnsx704 Jedi Knight

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    There is no plot hole.

    Film is a visual form of art. Focus on what's seen on screen, even when there is no dialogue, and let that tell the story for you. If it is said that it takes teaching to become a Force Ghost and then we see Anakin as a Force Ghost after dying then it is obvious that Anakin received teaching after his death much like Qui-Gon did.
  23. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    you can't fill a plot hole with things not from the works in question. These outside sources are meaningless
  24. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    Do you remember the scene in TPM where Obi-Wan states that Anakin has the highest midichlorian count of any Jedi?
    That's what.
    We're just chasing each other in circles here. I don't dispute that he's the chosen one, I dispute it as a reason why he should force ghost.

    Hell, the version of Anakin that fulfills his destiny is a burned out shell of his former self with machines that keep him alive. A man who had his limbs cut off, was burned half to death, and just got his ass kicked in no uncertain terms by his son. Hardly the spokesman for power

    He is the chosen one, he fulfills that destiny when he turns on the Emperor and kills him. The prophesy is fulfilled, it doesn't go on to tell us that the chosen one will party on Ghosbusters style with Ewoks, at least that is never mentioned.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 15, 2013
  25. DARTHKANISS Jedi Master

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    What's the point to be honest? What will putting him in achieve?
    Last edited by DARTHKANISS, Apr 15, 2013
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