Qui-Gon ruined TPM!

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by hew, Sep 7, 2002.

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  1. hew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 1999
    star 4
    Okay, he didn't really ruin it, but I still find the inclusion of his character interesting when compared to what TPM - and the PT - could have been without him.

    A small request: I know alot of members here think TPM is perfect as-is. I'm fine with that. I enjoy the movie, even despite what I see as its flaws. I'm not a basher. So please save the comments like "It's George's movie, he can do what he wants" or "Go and make you own movie if you're so smart". It is George's movie and he can - and did - make it as he saw fit. But everyone is also entitled to their opinion, so anyway...

    What was Lucas trying to achieve by adding Qui-Gon to TPM? He wasn't in at least one early draft, so something late in the game made Lucas think the character was required instead of placing Obi-Wan at the center of the story. True, Qui-Gon is one of the rocks that holds the whole movie together. He's the figure that pulls all the other characters together and Neeson's performance is one of the best in the film. But I think Obi-Wan's character could have done the same thing while making the movie even better and tying it into the overall saga much more effectively. Consider this:

    The first part of TPM would pan out much the same way as it does, but with Obi-Wan traveling alone instead of with Qui-Gon. He's just passed the trials and is given the Naboo trade dispute as a chance to prove himself, since the Jedi think it's an inconsequential matter which he can't screw up too badly. So everything goes along much the same until we get to Tatooine, where Anakin is discovered. This time it's Obi-Wan who senses he is the Chosen One, and it's Obi-Wan who does all he can to free him with the intention that he be trained as a Jedi.

    Already I think this would tie into the OT better. Obi-Wan would just be coming off of his training with Yoda, he would be more proud and headstrong, and he would be dedicated to training Anakin from the very start.

    Qui-Gon's insistence to train Anakin against Obi-Wan's objections give Obi-Wan a moral "Get out of Jail Free" card. Sure he trains Anakin, but only because of a promisde to a dying Qui-Gon. To see Obi-Wan fight for Anakin from the start and be the one instrumental to getting him included in the Jedi Order would really emphasize the guilt he would feel later in the PT and in the OT. It would also show him as impulsive, which he comments on to Yoda in ESB, when comparing himself to Luke.

    But back to TPM. As he and Anakin are approaching the Queen's ship to depart Tatooine, Maul would again attack, this time during a longer duel in which Obi-Wan gets trounced and barely escapes.

    They arrive at Coruscant, where Obi-Wan is met with the same resistance that Qui-Gon was. Anakin is denied training, and they are sent back to Naboo to protect Amidala. But here, the Council assigns a Jedi Master to travel with him since they have lost some faith in him - all except for Yoda. They arrogantly assume Maul couldn't have been a Sith or else they would have sensed their return.

    Humbled, Obi-Wan travels back to Naboo, and things turn out much the same, except during the Jedi/Sith duel, the Jedi Master arrogantly assumes Maul is no match for him and strikes to finish him off, leaving Obi-Wan trapped in the force-field behind him. Maul strikes the Master down, and Obi-Wan finds the strength inside himself to finally defeat him.

    Upon returning to Coruscant, Obi-Wan gives Yoda and the Council his ultimatum: either he trains Anakin within the bounds of the Jedi Order or on his own. Yoda relents, and the stage is set for Episode II.

    Now obviously the story isn't perfect and would need some tweaking, but I think something along those lines would have made TPM a much better film. Ewan definitely has the strentgh to anchor the film the same was Neeson does, and that way Lucas doesn't waste time by developing such a central character who is only going to die and whose purpose can easily be shifted to a character who plays an important part throughout the whole trilogy and who audiences would im
  2. Rabid_Balding_Ewok Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2000
    star 4
    So he could explain ghosts in EP. III I guess.

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  3. Tay-Mau Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2002
    star 1
    hew,I think your idea is a good one. While I like the character of Qui-Gon I didnt really see the need for him to have such a major role in TPM.
  4. hew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 1999
    star 4
    The ghost explanation is valid, I guess, but without knowing how it will play out in Episode III it's hard to gauge the importance of it.

    It wouldn't be that hard to take a few minutes in Episode III to have Yoda explain to Obi-Wan that death may not be end, and that he has studied in secret on a way to live on through the Force. The audience could easily fill in the gaps.
  5. Rabid_Balding_Ewok Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2000
    star 4
    But then the problem would be explainng how Anakin learns of Yoda's secret technique.

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  6. JMaster Luke Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    I totally agree with your idea. 100% agree with it.

    While qui gon IS the best character in TPM doesn't explain WHY he WAS made the main character.

    Not only could obi wan have done everything qui gon did, but he SHOULD have done everything qui gon did.

    This is the only prob i have with TPM. Obvious if the OT wasn't out and TPM was the first movie then i wouldn't see a prob with this since i wouldn't know how important obi wan would be in the future.

    but like u said obi wan doesn't WANT to train anakin, he just does it cuz qui gon asked him to.

    For obi wan its like "ok i'll train him. if he becomes a jedi great, if he doesn't oo well i never really wanted him anyway"

    but the way obi wan talks about training anakin in the ot it sounds like he really wanted to train him "i took it upon myself to train him" WRONG it should be changed to "i was not fond of your father, if it was up to me i'd leave your father as a slave, but my masters dying wish was for me to train your father, so... i did. and now look at the hell hole we're in"

  7. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Ah, I'm reminded of the days when Darth_Torgo was around :) Truly, Qui Gon was given the role which should have went to Kenobi. I don't mind him being the master, but to appear throughout the movie and then just die???

    And just look at Kenobi, he was left with nothing to do while Qui Gin and Jar had their own adventure! Again, it just reminds me of Anya that it sickens me (if you don't understand the Buffy reference, just forget it ;)).

    Qui-Gon's insistence to train Anakin against Obi-Wan's objections give Obi-Wan a moral "Get out of Jail Free" card

    Exactly! Where's the tragedy? And again, Kenobi showed no personality at all. Instead of him wanting to train Anakin because he thought he could do it "just as well as Yoda" (as was said in ROTJ) now he wants to do it because Qui Gon told him!Yup, TPM Kenobi will forever be defined by these words:

    Qui Gon told him

    :(
  8. LordRaceR Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2002
    I agree that Obi Wan should have more in finding Anakin and so on. Qui Gon is cool character and should be in TPM, but with smaller roll. Anyway, Lucas wanted to create some chain: Anakin was Obi Wan apprentice, Obi Wan was Qui Gon?s, Qui Gon was Duku?s and Duku was Yoda?s apprentice.
  9. Wild_Huntress Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 4
    Valid points, Hew. However I still subscribe to the motto that: If it's there there's gotta be a reason for this. I bet Qui-Gon comes out being important in some way in Ep. III in a way that only he could be. I dunno why, I just get that feeling. Which is why I'm not making any judgements just yet.
  10. Samwise_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    star 3
    Obi would never have trained Anakin. He would never have taken such a gamble. Its not in his character. If you ask me, the character of Qui-Gon gives the whole series a feeling of wisdom and honesty and understanding the "living force." I dont think it would work as well without Qui-Gon. I mean, you gotta see who trained Obi, cause if you didnt, then Obi would be less of a interesting character.
  11. AOTCStarwchic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 25, 2002
    star 4
    I thought Qui-Gon did an okay job.Because it shows part of the many Jedi.
  12. hew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 1999
    star 4
    Obi would never have trained Anakin. He would never have taken such a gamble. Its not in his character.

    No it's not in his character, but it should have been. From the OT it's implied that Obi-Wan was the one who sought out to train Anakin. He mentions to Yoda that he was headstrong like Luke when he was his age and being trained by Yoda. To see him as this uptight Jedi in TPM who doesn't want to rock the boat and do anything to upset the Council doesn't really fit that well with what we've come to know of his character in the OT.

    The way he's portrayed in TPM as Qui-Gon's apprentice works well enough, but I still think Lucas could have done a better job of developing Obi-Wan without Qui-Gon.
  13. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Qui-Gon was put in TPM to show why Obi-wan will fail to properly train Anakin and why Anakin will turn against Obi-wan.

    Qui-Gon has the experience, the wisdom, and the patience to teach Anakin the ways on how to be a jedi, how to avoid the darkside, and what the consequences will be if he gave in to the darkside. Obi-wan doesn't have what Qui-Gon has because he is just promoted to Jedi Knight and is immediately taking on an apprentice instead of letting Yoda do Anakin's training while he spends more time proving himself that he is capable of being a Jedi Knight.

    When the time is right, then Obi-wan can take on an apprentice.

    Also, Anakin needs someone to bond with before and after he leaves his mother behind and that person is Qui-Gon. It can't be Obi-wan because he and Anakin are going to be archenemies by Episode 3 and if Lucas had decided to make Obi-wan the one to find Anakin and make them good friends, then not only will that make Qui-Gon a wasted character but Lucas would have to come up with a better explanation on why, after spending 2 films being the best of friends, does Anakin decides to hate and attempt to murder Obi-wan.

    Having Qui-Gon be the one to find Anakin is what will plant the seeds to Anakin's future betrayal of Obi-wan and why Anakin will resent Obi-wan because he felt that Obi-wan left Qui-Gon to die at the hands of Darth Maul.

    Obi-wan was already a big fat liar when Lucas decided to make Anakin and Darth Vader the same person so why bother taking whatever Obi-wan says as gosphel when you know it's going to be just another "certain point of view" of his.

    Not everything has was mentioned in the OT has to come true.
  14. hew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 1999
    star 4
    "Obi-wan doesn't have what Qui-Gon has because he is just promoted to Jedi Knight and is immediately taking on an apprentice instead of letting Yoda do Anakin's training while he spends more time proving himself that he is capable of being a Jedi Knight."

    This would still be the case even without Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan would be in over his head training Anakin, but would insist on it due to his faith in the boy, not because of a promise he made to someone else that goes against his own suspicions.

    "Also, Anakin needs someone to bond with before and after he leaves his mother behind and that person is Qui-Gon. It can't be Obi-wan because he and Anakin are going to be archenemies by Episode 3 and if Lucas had decided to make Obi-wan the one to find Anakin and make them good friends, then not only will that make Qui-Gon a wasted character but Lucas would have to come up with a better explanation on why, after spending 2 films being the best of friends, does Anakin decides to hate and attempt to murder Obi-wan."

    Anakin and Qui-Gon bond for what - a couple of days? A week? Big deal...

    There's nothing to suggest that Obi-Wan and Anakin have had a bad relationship between TPM and AOTC. Their arguments and differences in AOTC stem from Anakin's youthful impatience, not from any deep-rooted dislike for Obi-Wan. If Lucas can explain why Anakin would turn his back on Padme, the woman he loves, he can also show how Anakin could turn against his master and father figure.

    Lucas made Anakin an innocent and good-natured young boy in TPM to emphasize his turn to the Dark Side, and show how someone so good can turn so bad. Having a good, trusting relationship with Obi-Wan from the start would make his turn all the more tragic instead of planting an obvious seed of distrust between them from the moment they meet.

    "Obi-wan was already a big fat liar when Lucas decided to make Anakin and Darth Vader the same person so why bother taking whatever Obi-wan says as gosphel when you know it's going to be just another "certain point of view" of his."

    Having Obi-Wan lie to Luke to hide a potentially harmful piece of information from him doesn't mean that everything he tells to any other character is a lie.
  15. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    I'm with you, hew. I've said the same things many times myself. Even if he uses Qui-Gon to explain the ghost thing, I don't see how it's necessary. Easy enough to have Yoda explain it, we can fill in the rest.

    Anything else, there is no reason Obi-Wan couldn't do the same basic things. It would have given Obi-Wan way more development, fit much more smoothly with the OT. Actually that's probably the funniest thing about the whole relationship--Obi-Wan acts more like the master half the time in that relationship than Qui-Gon does. He's the cautious, patient, big picture guy. Doesn't it make more sense to have the young Knight bite off more than he can chew and get in over his head, with tragic consequences. You can almost see how Qui-Gon simply is taking over the role originally written for a much young Obi-Wan Kenobi. So why the heck not just let Obi-Wan do it and not cause the continuity difficulties.

    Sometimes I think Lucas chickened out--he was afraid it would be too hard to write the dissolution of a relationship which had started with true friendship and high hopes, so instead he just made it disconnected from the start. But in doing so I think he cut out a lot of the drama and tragedy of his story. Because we as an audience aren't nearly so invested in the relationship.
  16. I_Hate_Sand Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 6, 2002
    star 1
    GEORGE LUCAS ruined TPM. :(
  17. KosmicKnine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    The Phantom Menace is kickass!

    Hooyah!
  18. B4DaDrkX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2002
    star 1
    "Menance" blew butt-nuggets IMO.

    Obi-Wan's character had less lines than Jar-Jar. I found all of the characters flat and uninvolving. Definetly the worst SW movie. Fortunately, AOTC was a much better movie in my opinion.
  19. hoth-nudist Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2000
    star 3
    Are you kidding hew?! Qui-Gone was one of the very few bright points in that film. Liam Neeson did a great job with the character. He convinced me as being a maverick jedi and I thought it was terrific. GL's poor character choices (jar-jar, and other cgi hooligans) and rusty-crusty writing ruined TPM.
  20. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Good points naw ibo. Not only that, but it made Kenobi looked stupid and without personality. As I've said before (and by all the Gungans in TPM, I'll say it again) Kenobi now will only be defined as someone who does what Qui Gon told him, not because he himself believed he could train Anakin "just as well as Yoda".

    :(
  21. hew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 8, 1999
    star 4
    Are you kidding hew?! Qui-Gon was one of the very few bright points in that film. Liam Neeson did a great job with the character. He convinced me as being a maverick jedi and I thought it was terrific.

    That's all true, but it comes at the expense of Obi-Wan. The movie as a whole would have been much better focusing on Obi-Wan. From what we've seen in AotC, Ewan would have no problem carrying the film.
  22. Samwise_Skywalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2002
    star 3
    Hew's mean. Mesa no likin him.
  23. JMaster Luke Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    This is the way i see Obi wans relation ship with anakin. As we see in TPM he didn't WANT to train anakin. thats clear from the start.

    My first job was working at K Mart. Its not a job i wanted, but i went there cuz i was forced to ( earn money and buy my own stuff instead of asking parents all the time)

    K mart is not a job like working for ILM that u WANT to work there. SO anyways after working for k mart for like a year they laid me off one day cuz they were cutting back on ppl. they didn't need me.

    how did i react? I didn't care. I even thanked the guy who told me i was laid off on the phone. and when i hung up i was happy. cuz i never really wanted to work there. Now if i was working at ILM and got laid off i would be mad as hell and depressed.

    How does this relate to obi wan? He never wanted at first to train anakin. He was forced to by his masters dying wish. When anakin turns to the dark side and fails, obi wan wont have this sad depressed feeling since he never wanted him. WANTED him. He was forced.

    Yeah he'll be kinda pissed, but the fact is taking on anakin is not something obi wan wanted. its like "ooo fine ok i'll train teh guy if i have to"

    thats how i feel about it. I'm not saying ben will be happy when anakin turns like when i found out i was laid off, but the emotion and the sadness obi wan suppose to have for failing with anakin will be reduced big time since ben didn't find and want to train anakin for himself.


    Just imagine seeing obi wan arguing with the jedi council about training anakin. Man u would feel so strongly for obi wans character. u would see the hope obi wan would have in anakins future, and then when anakin turned obi would be sad and disappointed cuz his dreams for anakins future would be lost
  24. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    "This would still be the case even without Qui-Gon. Obi-wan would be in over his head training Anakin, but would insist on it due to his faith in the boy, not because of a promise he made to someone else that goes against his own suspicions."

    But Obi-wan is not known to be in over his head because from what I see of him in the OT, he doesn't strike me as the "rebel" type like Anakin or Qui-Gon was since he is too cautious to do anything that is considered extreme or "over your head".

    Sure, he told Yoda he was reckless when he was young but as we see in TPM, he didn't have any thoughts of adventure or excitement due to his by-the-bookish attitude.

    "Anakin and Qui-Gon bond for what? A couple of days? A week? Big deal..."

    It may not be a big deal to you but to Anakin, it is because he saw Qui-Gon as an opportunity to start a new life.

    When he noticed Qui-Gon's lightsaber while he's talking to Jira, Anakin figured that Qui-Gon would free him from slavery and train him as a Jedi which he suggested at the dinner scene which is why he was so willing to help Qui-Gon and co. afford a new hyperdrive engine for the Queen's ship.

    Qui-Gon, once realising there was something special about Anakin, decides to bet his freedom in the podrace which Anakin won. When he was told by the council that Anakin won't be trained, Qui-Gon stood up for him by announcing that he will train the boy himself.

    They were like kindred spirits because Anakin and Qui-Gon did everything for each other whereas we don't see any bonding between Obi-wan and Anakin since they are too divided by their differences.

    "If Lucas can explain why Anakin would turn his back on Padme, the woman he loves, then he can also show why Anakin would turn against his master and father figure."

    Except Anakin loves Padme too much to even think about turning his back on her, not even if she's been eliminated from his life permantly by(unknownst to Anakin)the Emperor.

    He also loved his mother but did he turned his back on her as well? No because even when he's forced to leave Shmi, he still didn't want to turn his back on her nor did he want to leave her side.

    Now, Anakin does NOT love Obi-wan because despite him repeatedly saying that Obi-wan is "like a father" to him, every action he does around him has not supported that statement because he never listens to Obi-wan and he always endangers his life.

    The only person Anakin looks to for fatherly advice is Palpatine because to Ani, he makes him feel like he's needed and doesn't overcriticize him or treat him like a kid like Obi-wan always does but we all know that Palpatine is the wrong person for Anakin to look up to.

    "Having a good, trusting relationship with Obi-wan from the start would make his turn all the more tragic instead of planting an obvious seed of distrust between them from the moment they meet."

    But you can't break up a good, trusting relationship between Anakin and Obi-wan without providing something that will cause them to drift apart or else what would be the point of making them enemies in the OT.

    You saw how he didn't hesitate to kill Obi-wan in ANH and the way he spoke about it through the rest of the trilogy....he was proud that he did it. He was even jealous that Obi-wan can do better with Luke and not him not to mentioned that he assumed that Obi-wan was smart enough to hide Leia from him making Anakin/Vader's hatred for Obi-wan all the more huge.

    As I've already mentioned, Qui-Gon was put in TPM to show why Anakin will turn against Obi-wan and why Obi-wan will fail to properly train Anakin.


    "Having Obi-wan lie to Luke to hide a potentially harmful piece of information doesn't mean that everything he tells to any other character is a lie."

    That still doesn't mean that everything has to come true.

    Obi-wan told Han that he was gonna pay him $17,000 dollars when they reached Alderaan but that didn't happen since Alderaan is destroyed and Obi-wan died in battle against Vader.

    One more thing, hiding a piece of information from someone can also be harmful b
  25. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    So many assumptions....

    Sure, he told Yoda he was reckless when he was young but as we see in TPM, he didn't have any thoughts of adventure or excitement due to his by-the-bookish attitude.


    Yep, and this is a problem many of us have with his characterization in TPM. He isn't reckless, and doesn't insist on training Anakin "because I thought I could train him as well as Yoda". Instead, he's just doing what Qui Gon tells him to do. Eliminate the Qui Gon character, or just make him more of a background character, and all of a sudden Obi Wan looks exactly like he describes himself in the OT.

    They were like kindred spirits because Anakin and Qui-Gon did everything for each other whereas we don't see any bonding between Obi-wan and Anakin since they are too divided by their differences.


    How could they do everything for each other if they had only known the other for a few days? Kindred spirits is pushing it a little, me thinks. Which brings up another point. If Obi Wan had assumed Qui Gon's role, then indeed the line in ANH where he calls Anakin "a good friend" would prove to be true. As it is now, they look more like they have a bickering older brother/younger brother relationship, where neither one of them really likes the other. Unfortunately we never get to see them being "good friends". If we did, this would have made Anakin's fall and battles against Obi Wan even more dramatic.

    But you can't break up a good, trusting relationship between Anakin and Obi-wan without providing something that will cause them to drift apart or else what would be the point of making them enemies in the OT.


    Hello? Can you honestly not think of anything that would cause them to cease being friends? For one thing, Anakin chooses the quick and easy path in his training. I doubt this would sit well with Obi Wan, especially if he had tried so hard to convince everyone that he was ready to train Anakin. And especially if Obi Wan truly had been good friends and like a father figure to Anakin. We don't know yet exactly the reason why Anakin turns, but I'm sure it would hold up just as well if it had been Obi pining for his training instead of QG.

    Obi-wan told Han that he was gonna pay him $17,000 dollars when they reached Alderaan but that didn't happen since Alderaan is destroyed and Obi-wan died in battle against Vader.


    What a horrible argument to make. Of course OW himself can't pay the money. He's freakin dead! But Han still gets the reward when they get to Yavin 4. So no, it wasn't a lie.

    if Luke killed Vader now and found out afterwards that Vader was his father, Luke would have fallen to the darkside

    How do you figure? Did I miss some EU novel explaining this?

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