Qui-Gon ruined TPM!

Aha! I'm back to haunt this thread! Now hopefully the Sanctuary won't be trolled!

So, let's get to it, shall we? I have to go to the library soon..so, where shall I start...

We "know" alrady that Jack Napier killed Bruce's parents. However, we only know that from Bruce Wayne's recollections. So the things that actually must happen are

1--Bruce sees his parents get killed

2--He believes the killer is Jack Napier, who then becomes the Joker.

Oh come on! See, this is why I hate the 'point of view' nonsense! Everything is suddenly point of view! No no, Batman didn't remember correctly. Actually, we should't make a Year One movie about Batman. Let's make it about Allfred, yeah, he was the one who actually witness the murder, then he told Bruce! It still works...on a certain point of view. Oh yes! And let's spend the time with pointless racing acrosss Githam and fart jokes from Bullock!



If the argument is all about 'point of view' then let me just lauch at this convinient way to get out of continuity. Again, so much for 'vision'...Lucas will just use this excuse to make his 'revision'.

Lucas: You see, the audience only sees Luke from a point of view. Now, not only will we add a scream in ESB, but so as to make it family friendly, there will be no hands cut in the Ultra Edition. We just make Luke fall down! it's OK, it's just a point of view!

McCallum: That !#$@^^^& fantastic, George! We'll make $^&$&$* lots of money!

Sigh...next victim...

QUI-GON OWN YOU BASHERS SO YOU BETTER SHUT YO MOUTHS BEFORE I NEED TO SLAP 'EM SHUT YO!!!!!

Let me guess..Eminem fan?

Now why was he included? I know a lot of people complain that his character rendered Obi-Wan useless in Episode I, but I disagree. I think Qui-Gon was added so we could see what the model master/padawan relationship looked like.

It could have been written that way, yet at the same time allowed for Kenobi to do something. Otherwise, leave him on Coruscant. And if you ask me, the way Padawan-Master relationships ar epotrayed are now inconsistent betwen TPM and AOTC. In TPM, Padawan does nothing (because "only" Qui Gon can do it). In AOTC, Padawan gets to do his own job. If Kenobi was allowed to do tha task in TPM as a test, than it would be consistent for Anakin in turn to be sent out to do the ded as his own test. The only concern that Kenobi might have then is Anakin's overconfidence, but not his ability to do it.

However, I'm not necessarily advocating completely removing Qui-Gon from the story--just simply giving Obi-Wan more to do in TPM that might actually qualify as real character develoment and revelation, like giving over the second half of the film to showing him develop once his basic relationship is established with Qui-Gon. We knew everything we needed to know about Qui-Gon by the time they reached Tatooine if his purpose was to give an extra layer to Obi-Wan's character and to show a "non-Skywalker" master/apprentice relationship, the whole rest of the film was just dedicated to pounding it in, ad nauseum. It is time that could have been used to develop Obi-Wan instead.

Bingo! Thoughts straight out of my mind! Like you, I do NOT advocate that Qui Gon be eliminated. I don't have a problem with himbeing Kenobi's Master, yet at the same time Yoda was his Mastetr too. I just wish chracter development focused on a character who would play a vital role in the saga, instead of a character who only lasts one movie and only gets a dubbed "NoooAnakin!!!" line in the second movie (will Episode 3 have a CGI Neeson? )

And through out the movie he should that he didn't really care for Anikan,then in the second movie we see that Anikan thinks Obi-Wan is holding him back and may even be jealous of his talent.I mean add it up,in the first movie it is clear Obi-Wan doesn't to much care for Anikan and in the second we see a kind of hostilty from Anikan towards Obi-Wan,I think Lucas was just giving us a idea of where Anikans darker feelings came from.

And thank you for maki

 

*chuckles*Nice one there Junno...I think you summed it all up perfectly...this thread has it's answers and now on to the next debate.

 

>>>Oh come on! See, this is why I hate the 'point of view' nonsense! Everything is suddenly point of view! No no, Batman didn't remember correctly. Actually, we should't make a Year One movie about Batman...

Not if it's not going to make an interesting story worth telling, instead of telling a story we already know in a different tense, no.

What difference would it make if Bruce didn't see/know/remember correctly, as all we know is what we're told from his memory?

 

What difference would it make if Bruce didn't see/know/remember correctly, as all we know is what we're told from his memory?

What difference??? He's all mad at Joker because he remembered Jack Napier killing his parents. Now it'll be "interesting" if suddenly he didn't remmeber it correctly??? What next: oh yeah, Bruce wasn't there at all, nope it will be about Alfred who for some inexplicable reason was with Bruce's parents watching a movie and Alfred was the one who witnessed it, not Bruce. But he then told Bruce what happened,so hey, it's still correct from "a certain point of view" right???

I get it now! You're one of those Warner Brothers executives who thought the idea of making Lex Luthor an alien was bloody brilliant just so that they can have a "ESB moment ala 'I am your father'" at the end!!! Yup, we'll just add that because it would be 'interesting' not because it served the plot in any way!



Sorry, but these arguments are giving me more than my recommended does of daily humor. And it still doesn't eliminate my believe that:

1--Qui Gon is just gonna be in one film, why waste time on him when Obi Wan and Anakin's friendship could have been better developed? You'd be killing two birds with one stone, for by developing the relationship, you'd have character development for both Anakin (for is he not the 'central character' etc etc) and Kenobi.

2--Why the heck was Obi Wan there if all the parts meant for him (as indicated in some drafts, I believe) were all transfered to Qui Gon. Leaving him and Coruscant would be better, after all he only needs Qui Gon to tell him how great Anakin was, no need to witness it all himself right? It's all Qui Gon!

 

Yikes! Double post! Eeeevil they are!

 

>>>What difference??? He's all mad at Joker because he remembered Jack Napier killing his parents. Now it'll be "interesting" if suddenly he didn't remmeber it correctly???

No- my hypothetical situation was if Bruce didn't see it correctly in the first place, it would become a story worth telling- what's the point in telling a story that's already been told, unless you bring something new to it?

(And yes, in case you were wondering I've seen the film and not read many of the comics.)

>>>What next: oh yeah, Bruce wasn't there at all, nope it will be about Alfred who for some inexplicable reason was with Bruce's parents watching a movie and Alfred was the one who witnessed it, not Bruce. But he then told Bruce what happened,so hey, it's still correct from "a certain point of view" right???

No, because we already know that Bruce witnessed the murder.

>>>1--Qui Gon is just gonna be in one film, why waste time on him when Obi Wan and Anakin's friendship could have been better developed? You'd be killing two birds with one stone, for by developing the relationship, you'd have character development for both Anakin (for is he not the 'central character' etc etc) and Kenobi.

a) Because Obi Wan and Anakin's friendship isn't the central story.
b) Because Qui Gon (like Obi Wan in the OT) isn't in just one film. (I think...)
c) Because while Obi Wan does his best to be a good master and friend to Anakin, Anakin isn't doing his best to be a good apprentice. That's the aspect of their relationship that is central to AOTC.

>>>>2--Why the heck was Obi Wan there if all the parts meant for him (as indicated in some drafts, I believe) were all transfered to Qui Gon. Leaving him and Coruscant would be better, after all he only needs Qui Gon to tell him how great Anakin was, no need to witness it all himself right? It's all Qui Gon!

a) Because his character in TPM gives us something to compare to Anakin in AOTC.
b) Because everyone wants to see as much Obi Wan/Ewan McGregor as possible.
c) Because it would make little sense seeing some random Jedi step in, defy the council and train Anakin if he didn't feel something special for Qui Gon.

 

Ok,don't get me wrong,I loved Qui-Gonn but I think the whole thing would have been much better if Lucas had written TPM with the characters the ages that they are in AOTC. The opening could have gone something like this(I did this for fun-I realize it's Lucas's world and without him there would be no SW,etc,etc)

"The Beginning"
(The Phantom Menace)
Third Draft
"THE BEGINNING"
WRITTEN BY
GEORGE LUCAS
Third Draft - May 13, 1997
Revised - June 6, 1997
SPACE (FX)

Title card: A long time in a galaxy far, far away...

A vast sea of stars serves as the backdrop for the main title, followed by a roll up, which crawls up into infinity.

Turmoil has engulfed the Galactic Republic. The taxation of trade routes to outlying star systems is in dispute.

Hoping to resolve the matter with a blockade of deadly battleships, the greedy Trade Federation has stopped all shipping to and from the small planet of Naboo.

While the Congress of the Republic endlessly debates this alarming chain of events, the Supreme Chancellor has secretly dispatched a Jedi Knight, a guardian of peace, to settle the conflict...

PAN DOWN to reveal a small wedge-shaped Jedi Starfighter heading TOWARD CAMERA at great speed. PAN with the fighter as it heads toward the beautiful green planet of Naboo, which is surrounded by hundreds of Trade Federation battleships.

INT. JEDI STARFIGHTER- COCKPIT
The pilot maneuvers his vessel towards the main control ship.He activates the com-link.

JEDI PILOT
Request permission to dock.

Static fills the viewscreen. It clears to reveal a strange Neimoidian. The alien responds in a series of clicks and grunts.

NEIMOIDIAN
(subtitled)
On whose authority?

JEDI PILOT
(O.S)
By order of the Supreme Chancellor.

The Neimoidian is taken aback. The screen fills with static and when it clears again NUTE GUNRAY, decadent Viceroy of the Trade Federation, stares out at the pilot.

NUTE GUNRAY
(subtitled)
And you are?

JEDI PILOT
(O.S)
Kenobi. Obi-Wan Kenobi. I believe you?re expecting me.

NUTE
Yes, yes, of course...we didn?t expect you quite so soon... ahhh... as you know, our blockade is perfectly legal, and we'd be happy to receive the Ambassador... Happy to.

The screen goes black. Outside the cockpit window, the sinister battleship looms ever closer. Obi-Wan guns the ship towards the gaping hangar.

FEDERATION BATTLESHIP - DOCKING BAY - SPACE (FX)
The small starfighter docks in the enormous main bay of the Federation battleship.

FEDERATION BATTLESHIP - DOCKING BAY - SPACE
A PROTOCOL DROID, TC-3, waits at the door to the docking bay. Two WORKER DROIDS, PK-4 and EG-9, stand in the foreground.

PK-4
Whoever it is must be important if the Viceroy sent one of those useless protocol gearheads to greet them.

The door opens, and the starfighter can be seen in the docking bay. A darkly robed Obi-Wan is greeted by TC-3. They move off down the hallway.

EG-9
A Republic Starfighter! That's trouble... don't you think?

PR-4
I'm not made to think.

FEDERATION BATTLESHIP - CONFERENCE ROOM
A door slides open, and the cloaked Jedi is led PAST CAMERA into the formal conference room by TC-3. A large window looks out over the lush green planet of Naboo.

TC-3
I hope you will be most comfortable here, Sir. My master will be with you shortly.

The droid bows before Obi-Wan. He backs out the door and it closes. The JEDI lowers his hood. For THE FIRST TIME we look upon OBI-WAN KENOBI. Commanding and totally in control, the Jedi scans the chamber for danger with keen blue eyes that suggest wisdom beyond his 32 years. Satisfied, he scratches his short brown beard and pulls a com-link from his belt.

OBI-WAN
(into com-link)
Kenobi to ?Old Folks Home?.

There is a pause. The com-link crackles.

YODA
(voice over)
Receive you,we do Obi-Wan. Were you here, be so insolent you would not.

OBI-WAN
(into com-link,smiling)
Apologies,master. I?ve arrived.

YODA
Good. Be wary. Much disturbance I sense in the force. Trust only your instincts. Dangerous times ahead there lie-

 

a) Because Obi Wan and Anakin's friendship isn't the central story.
b) Because Qui Gon (like Obi Wan in the OT) isn't in just one film. (I think...)
c) Because while Obi Wan does his best to be a good master and friend to Anakin, Anakin isn't doing his best to be a good apprentice. That's the aspect of their relationship that is central to AOTC.

a) Of course, fart jokes and showing off how realistic (or not..) CGI can be is the central theme of TPM

b) I'll just laugh at this one

c) I really don't understand the relevance of this one. Pray, enlighten me.

a) Because his character in TPM gives us something to compare to Anakin in AOTC.
b) Because everyone wants to see as much Obi Wan/Ewan McGregor as possible.
c) Because it would make little sense seeing some random Jedi step in, defy the council and train Anakin if he didn't feel something special for Qui Gon.

a) LOL! We could have left him in Coruscant and that's still essentially all we need to compare him and Anakin. One's a stiff English dude with "Yes Master" lines, the other is a brat who flirts with older women.

b) Making my points for me...

c) Made little sense for conservative Kenobi to suddenly agree with Qui Gon for no apparent reason. Just look at it: he suddenly wanted to train the boy because of a death wish??? Huh??? There wasn't any indication that he was gradually persuaded, or was there maybe a personal connection with Anakin that made him suddenly realise "Hey, this kid could be the Chosen One after all!" Nor was there any experience which made Kenobi came to the conclusion that "Wow!" Qui Gon was right: this whole 'living force' stuff does work!" But if you were to make him go to Tatooine, all this is possible.

But hey, we need Qui Gon because it'll be "interesting" right? Damn continuity to hell!

 

As many have pointed out, Qui-Gon's purpose in the SW saga seem to be to
(a) illustrate a great Master/Padawan relationship (with Obi-Wan)
(b) to show the "beginning"/"origin" of one of the central characters in the saga, Obi-Wan.

Additionally, he is now the one who discovered the Chosen One (right decision) but also made a huge mistake (according to GL: possibly in asking him to be trained? I don't know).

As such, Qui-Gon is necessary to TPM, and indeed he helps to make it a better film. That is not in dispute. Also, he is portrayed as a great Jedi who also has some frailities - always an attractive mix. However, the point is that Obi-Wan is a far more central character to the saga, and his character and his relationship with Anakin are of major importance. Therefore, TPM would have been a BETTER film if Obi-Wan had been utilised much more. It would not have diminished Qui-Gon's importance and value if Obi-Wan had taken over some of the things that QG did. A really important item missing from TPM is any Anakin/Obi-wan interaction, except in the last scene. For example, why couldn't QG, after coming back to the Nubian with the hyperdrive generator, ask Obi-Wan to go back, sell the podracer and free Anakin? Then Obi-Wan could have made the final decision to bring the freed Anakin along with them, establishing a connection between the boy and himself early on.

 

I agree, and nice Leia Icon.

 

As such, Qui-Gon is necessary to TPM, and indeed he helps to make it a better film. That is not in dispute.

The purpose of this thread is about some of us who dispute that.

Also, he is portrayed as a great Jedi who also has some frailities - always an attractive mix.

Maybe I can agree with that...

However, the point is that Obi-Wan is a far more central character to the saga, and his character and his relationship with Anakin are of major importance. Therefore, TPM would have been a BETTER film if Obi-Wan had been utilised much more.

Excellent! Making my point for me! I've been saying like...oh, since I first read Oakes' rewrite.

It would not have diminished Qui-Gon's importance and value if Obi-Wan had taken over some of the things that QG did.

(my emphasis there)

Indeed! Mesa agreeing!

A really important item missing from TPM is any Anakin/Obi-wan interaction, except in the last scene

Yes! Even in the last scene, is Kenobi really being friendly with Anakin? He sounds cold, but then the reason for this is probably the fact that they don't have that many scenes together before this scene. As you correctly pointed out, Kenobi/Ani interaction was lacking in TPM.

For example, why couldn't QG, after coming back to the Nubian with the hyperdrive generator, ask Obi-Wan to go back, sell the podracer and free Anakin?

(my emphasis)

Riiight, and of course Kenobi would say "Yes Master. Three cups of sugar, master". Nope, can't agree with that sceneario. It'd still be all Qui Gon, the decision wouldn't be Kenobi's because he's only doing what Qui Gon asked him to do. The only good thing perhaps about that scenario is more Kenobi/Ani interaction (not to mention that maybe it's Kenobi who gets to duel with Maul in the desert. )

My two cents. Overall, great post, though.

 

I still agree with forever_jedi.

Nice post though.

 

Qui-Gon will prove to have more importance in the starwars films than any one can imagine. As far as we know Qui-Gon is a blank page for now, so how can we speculate on his validity until episode III.

 

Lurking_Around You wrote
The purpose of this thread is about some of us who dispute that.
in response to my earlier post
As such, Qui-Gon is necessary to TPM, and indeed he helps to make it a better film. That is not in dispute.

Sorry about that: I should have said that IMO, including Qui-Gon made TPM better than leaving him out completely. I feel that if QG had been left out, then OB1 would have been the only adult in that film, interacting with a 9-year-old "Yippe"-yelling tyke, an "icky-goo" Jar-Jar and a weird 14-year-old elected Queen. IMO, this would have made TPM somewhat more unbearable than the actual version. I think the best mix would have been if QG had served the two purposes (a) and (b) I noted above - to illustrate the Master/Padawan relationship and show what/who shaped OB1. Of course, in this scenario, OB1 would have discovered Anakin for all the glory and the blame. As such, as I have said earlier, QG's role could have been similar to Ben's in ANH. I can also live with another version, in which QG and OB1 had more equal roles in TPM, with some nice interactions between the two. A lot of people, including me, would have liked more warmth and more life in that relationship - something present between the OT heroes, and sadly absent in TPM (but hinted at, in the TPM novelization). Even in terms of finding Anakin, GL could have gone with both of them discovering Anakin but OB1 forging ahead with the decision to train him.
More equal roles for QG and OB1 would have also decreased the time we had to spend with JJ, or with little Ani - not a bad trade-off!

BTW, in the last scenes of TPM, OB1 is being friendly and protective to Ani. He has his arm on Ani's shoulder and appears to be guiding him during Palpy's arrival. Also during the final celebration scene, the two appear to have started off a good relationship. I am a confirmed OB1 fan - so all these "little" smiles/gestures could be my own view through rose-tinted glasses, though.

Go-Mer-Tonic Thanks for agreeing - at last we seem to have overcome fear..anger...hate...suffering!

 

I will not listen to such blasphemous rhetoric.

 

>>>a) Of course, fart jokes and showing off how realistic (or not..) CGI can be is the central theme of TPM
b) I'll just laugh at this one
c) I really don't understand the relevance of this one. Pray, enlighten me.

a) I thought it was something to do with taxis...
b) Err... OK.
c) When Anakin challenges Obi Wan in front of Padme at the start of AOTC, do you think he's doing his best to learn from him and be a good apprentice?


>>>a) LOL! We could have left him in Coruscant and that's still essentially all we need to compare him and Anakin. One's a stiff English dude with "Yes Master" lines, the other is a brat who flirts with older women.

So there was too much Obi Wan?

>>>b) Making my points for me...

I didn't realise that your point was based on actors/characters popularity in different films. I thought this was about plot/story of TPM...

>>>c) Made little sense for conservative Kenobi to suddenly agree with Qui Gon for no apparent reason. Just look at it: he suddenly wanted to train the boy because of a death wish??? Huh??? There wasn't any indication that he was gradually persuaded, or was there maybe a personal connection with Anakin that made him suddenly realise "Hey, this kid could be the Chosen One after all!" Nor was there any experience which made Kenobi came to the conclusion that "Wow!" Qui Gon was right: this whole 'living force' stuff does work!" But if you were to make him go to Tatooine, all this is possible.

It would make little sense if he wasn't his apprentice, and had been spending however long following him around and learning from him.

It's obvious that Obi Wan trains Anakin because of what he felt for Qui Gon, not Anakin.


>>>>It would not have diminished Qui-Gon's importance and value if Obi-Wan had taken over some of the things that QG did.

How on earth can you justify that statement?

 

It's obvious that Obi Wan trains Anakin because of what he felt for Qui Gon, not Anakin.

Bingo! Yup, and that's why I don't like it. It doesn't make any sense. Certainly doesn't make sense for conservative Kenobi, who respects Yoda's views more than Qui Gon as indicated at the beginning of the film and during the whole 'the council will not train the boy' scene, to just suddenly decide to train the boy. His character didn't developed, it jumped, in an inexplicable way, with only a death wish as an excuse.

As I said in my earlier post, the execution would have been better if Obi Wan experienced certain events which made him think "Yeah, this Qui Gon guy really knew what he was talking about!" or "Hey, this Anakin kid is the Chosen One!". Instead, all we have is [zombie voice]"Yes Master. I will remain nothing but an extension of your personality, even in death."[/zombie voice]

So there was too much Obi Wan?

Too much useless Obi Wan An important distinction there, good sir. If I may repeat my analogy of this character with Anya (no spoilers, I promise! ), I wouldn't have complained if Anya was more involved with the storyline in season 5 or if she proved useful, or if she had more character development rather than just being Xander's girl or just sprout 'witty comments' (remember the Giles quote? ). There were numerous occasions when Anya could have been used better. One good example was when Buffy was grieving, now surely a vengeance demon would know a lot about that. Instead, we see Tara sharing her feelings with Buffy, relating with Buffy, moving away from merely being Willow's lover. Same with Obi Wan. Tatooine could have been an oppurtunity where the Master decides to test the apprentice. The apprentice, being all conservative and all, is shocked, thinks he's not ready! But in the end he proves equal to the task thanks to his mentor's view of 'concetrating on the here and now', thus we see Obi Wan inheriting Qui Gon's recklessness (or courage, depends really, which would make an interesting debate too!). And the fact that he finds Anakin means their friendship can be built up, adding to the tragedy when they finally turn out to be enemies. As it is, I can't wait for them to tear each other apart and get it over with.

>>>>It would not have diminished Qui-Gon's importance and value if Obi-Wan had taken over some of the things that QG did.

How on earth can you justify that statement?

Well I don't know about the guy whi made that statement, but for me the justification is simple: Qui Gon lasted for only one film. Not important at all to me. And don't give me the whole "Wait first for Episode 3". Last time it was "wait for Episode 2." Now, with Qui Gon being only some lousy dubbed "Noooo!" (heck, did Yoda even gasp "Qui Gon!" or anything like that? For all I know, it could probably had been some Tusken who can speak English and somehow knows Anakin's name! ) the excuse is that it will be revealed in Episode 3. Yeah, sure, with CGI Neeson now, right?

And that's my daily dose of debate!

 

Lurking_Around,

I've now seen up to the end of Season 6, so feel free to spoil away up to there!


(PS- Giles rocks.)

>>>>One good example was when Buffy was grieving, now surely a vengeance demon would know a lot about that. Instead, we see Tara sharing her feelings with Buffy, relating with Buffy, moving away from merely being Willow's lover. Same with Obi Wan. Tatooine could have been an oppurtunity where the Master decides to test the apprentice. The apprentice, being all conservative and all, is shocked, thinks he's not ready! But in the end he proves equal to the task thanks to his mentor's view of 'concetrating on the here and now', thus we see Obi Wan inheriting Qui Gon's recklessness (or courage, depends really, which would make an interesting debate too!). And the fact that he finds Anakin means their friendship can be built up, adding to the tragedy when they finally turn out to be enemies.

Do you think a vengence demon would offer good advice on how to deal with greif? Given Anya's own reaction to events in Season 6?

The problem I have with your suggested alternative is that all of your points would (at this stage in the saga) either seriously weaken or destroy the depiction of Obi Wan as

a) unready for "graduation" (dead Sith or no dead Sith, there's no way that kid's ready for his own apprentice.)

b) Training Anakin because of his faith in someone else over his faith in even himself.


>>>Certainly doesn't make sense for conservative Kenobi, who respects Yoda's views more than Qui Gon as indicated at the beginning of the film and during the whole 'the council will not train the boy' scene, to just suddenly decide to train the boy. His character didn't developed, it jumped, in an inexplicable way, with only a death wish as an excuse.

I'd say that after spending the entire film following Qui Gon around, hiding behind his cloak and taking him for granted, he realised that there was nobody who was going to (literally) pick up Qui Gon's sword and continue to fight his fight. The Chosen One was not going to be trained, which Qui Gon obviously thought the most important thing in the galaxy, so he put his faith in Qui Gon, who thought it so important, and took it upon himself to train Anakin.


>>>Instead, all we have is [zombie voice]"Yes Master. I will remain nothing but an extension of your personality, even in death."[/zombie voice][/]i

That's another way to look at it, I guess...


>>>Well I don't know about the guy whi made that statement, but for me the justification is simple: Qui Gon lasted for only one film. Not important at all to me.

I don't think you properly read the statement, which was that if Obi Wan did some of the things Qui Gon did, then Qui Gon's significance would not be affected.

>>>And don't give me the whole "Wait first for Episode 3". Last time it was "wait for Episode 2."

I hereby solemnly promise never to use the old "but wait for the next one" argument again after Episode III.

 

So there was too much Obi Wan?

I know Lurking already answered this one, but just to repeat--there was too much useless Obi-Wan. In other words for all the good he did in being there up to that point, he may as well not have been. So no there wasn't too much Obi-Wan, there was not enough of Obi-Wan doing something worthwhile as a character and showing us development.

"Yes Master. I will remain nothing but an extension of your personality, even in death."

Thank you! That is about as perfect as I've ever seen it put. It gives Obi-Wan no development of his, no proactivity. The basis of the character is wishy washy and don't anyone even begin to say that is the view supported by the OT, because it isn't. If anything the view of Obi-Wan wasn't that he was wishy washy and not proactive, but just the opposite.

The problem I have with your suggested alternative is that all of your points would (at this stage in the saga) either seriously weaken or destroy the depiction of Obi Wan as


How's that? It's a much stronger portrayal of the character. Instead of being tragic(which by definition--as opposed to the cheap melodrama we often mistake for tragedy nowadays--means an individual of great talent and often charisma who has a tragic flaw, usually directly related to his great talent, often out of personal pride), which the suggested portrayal would make him, he becomes nothing but a screw up.

I don't think Obi-Wan really was that unready. No more unready than any new teacher. Anakin would have been an nearly impossible apparentice for just about anyone. In fact I have no doubt he would have ended up proving quite a handful for Master Jinn, especially after 12+ years with a proper little apprentice like Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon's been spoiled this last decade.

I think just about any Jedi, whatever age, would have been unready for Anakin. At least Obi-Wan doesn't have anyone to compare him against, to judge him against. And I think for a normally raised Jedi padawan, Obi-Wan probably would have made a really excellent teacher, even newly knighted.

I actually think those aspects are of way more concern to some fans(and possibly in Anakin's mind) than they are too Obi-Wan's characterization--at this point, Obi-Wan is training Anakin and cares about Anakin because he wants to, because he's HIS apprentice. To him, Anakin isn't just some possible "The Chosen One"(in fact Obi-Wan never mentions it), Anakin is his apprentice, very talented, troubled but he's Anakin to him, first and foremost. Say what you want, but to Qui-Gon, Anakin was "the Chosen One", he did all this because he believed in a prophecy, it was never really about the individual Anakin. Whatever the initial starting point of the relationship of Obi-Wan and Anakin--at this point I see no evidence his reasons for doing it are any different than any other Jedi's reasons for training their padawan.

I'd say that after spending the entire film following Qui Gon around, hiding behind his cloak and taking him for granted,

Taking Qui-Gon for granted? Seems much more like it was the other way around to me. Qui-Gon just took for granted that Obi-wan would always fall in line and say "yes master", so much so that he just ditches him in front of the whole council and expects Obi-Wan to just put up and shut up and "understand". Obi-Wan never hid behind Qui-Gon's cloak either. And Obi-Wan didn't disappoint, after being scolded like a five year old for having his own opinion, he put up, he shut up and he "understood" him.

I hereby solemnly promise never to use the old "but wait for the next one" argument again after Episode III.


I like that one.

 

>>>If anything the view of Obi-Wan wasn't that he was wishy washy and not proactive, but just the opposite.

Sitting around for 20 years doing nothing but waiting for Luke to invite himself over is proactive?


>>>How's that? It's a much stronger portrayal of the character. Instead of being tragic(which by definition--as opposed to the cheap melodrama we often mistake for tragedy nowadays--means an individual of great talent and often charisma who has a tragic flaw, usually directly related to his great talent, often out of personal pride), which the suggested portrayal would make him, he becomes nothing but a screw up.

It's a portrayal of a different character. Obi Wan's faith in Qui Gon's decisions about Anakin above his faith in his own is his mistake that contributes to Darth Vader (as well as his pride and arrogance in thinking that he could train him well enough, even though he's obviously not ready.) Conversely, Qui Gon's faith in himself above his faith in Yoda and the council his his mistake that contributes to Darth Vader.

>>>I don't think Obi-Wan really was that unready. No more unready than any new teacher.

Why not?
Even though TPM goes out of it's way to show that;
a) Obi Wan doesn't do anything on his own- he relies entirely on Qui Gon (as has obviously been picked up on here)
b) He only "graduates" because of outside intervention- no trials were set by the council.

>>>>Taking Qui-Gon for granted? Seems much more like it was the other way around to me. Qui-Gon just took for granted that Obi-wan would always fall in line and say "yes master", so much so that he just ditches him in front of the whole council and expects Obi-Wan to just put up and shut up and "understand". Obi-Wan never hid behind Qui-Gon's cloak either. And Obi-Wan didn't disappoint, after being scolded like a five year old for having his own opinion, he put up, he shut up and he "understood" him.

And Obi Wan does always fall in line! The only point he questions Qui Gon is when he regurgitates the councils argument that Anakin is dangerous- which he then takes back, defers to Qui Gon and apologises.
When he's attacked by battle droids, he runs for Qui Gon to save him (a bit like Jar Jar...)

What does he do in TPM without Qui Gon's instruction? (Other than choosing Tatooine as a landing point.)

 

What does he do in TPM without Qui Gon's instruction? (Other than choosing Tatooine as a landing point.)

Making my points for me again...

The problem I have with your suggested alternative is that all of your points would (at this stage in the saga) either seriously weaken or destroy the depiction of Obi Wan as

a) unready for "graduation" (dead Sith or no dead Sith, there's no way that kid's ready for his own apprentice.)

b) Training Anakin because of his faith in someone else over his faith in even himself.

And that's a lousy way of potraying Obi Wan. Whatever happen to his statement of training Anain because he thought he was better than Yoda? Remember, he said HE was better than Yoda, NOT "My master willed it so Luke, I have no personality, I had to obey my master!". A waste of a character who could have been used to build up a friendship thart would end in tragedy, as well as give some consistancy to the PT. In the OT, it wwas consistent that Luke was the hero. In the PT, first we have Qui Gon, then he dies. Second movie we have Kenobi. I dread to think that Jar Jar would suddenly be the hero for Episode 3.

I'd say that after spending the entire film following Qui Gon around, hiding behind his cloak and taking him for granted, he realised that there was nobody who was going to (literally) pick up Qui Gon's sword and continue to fight his fight.

And ummm...why? Nothing in the movie to indicate why he would be moved to abandon the views he held for the rest of the movie. Again, that not character development, it character jump.

And Obi Wan does always fall in line! The only point he questions Qui Gon is when he regurgitates the councils argument that Anakin is dangerous- which he then takes back, defers to Qui Gon and apologises.

Again, one has to ask why. If there was a conversation wirth Ani perhaps, which really does illustrate to Kenobi that the kid should be trained, then maybe I'll understand the apology. As it is, it's another 'character' jump. The same as the character jump Anya had, from a vengeance demon who understood human emotion since she served the job for thousands of years to the clueless 'Cordelia wannabe' who is only defined by her relationship with Xander.

 

>>>>And that's a lousy way of potraying Obi Wan. Whatever happen to his statement of training Anain because he thought he was better than Yoda? Remember, he said HE was better than Yoda, NOT "My master willed it so Luke, I have no personality, I had to obey my master!"

(Emphasis mine.)

Watch ROTJ again.

"I thought I could train him as well as Master Yoda. I was wrong."

In TPM, we saw Qui Gon ask the Council (ie. Yoda) to train Anakin. He wouldn't do it. Obi Wan did it instead, because he thought he could do just as good a job (otherwise he wouldn't have trained him, would he? Do you think he planned to half-train Anakin?)


>>>>In the OT, it wwas consistent that Luke was the hero. In the PT, first we have Qui Gon, then he dies. Second movie we have Kenobi. I dread to think that Jar Jar would suddenly be the hero for Episode 3.

The central story of the PT was always going to be about the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker. So there was always going to be a central theme of the hero going bad. It was inevitable.

Qui Gon is the start of this- he's doing the wrong things, but for the right reasons. But they're little things like cheating dice rolls.
Dooku is the continuation of the same theme- he's trying to bring down the Sith (I think), but because of the way that the Dark Side of the Force can consume and corrupt if not treated properly, he is clearly going evil.
Meanwhile, Anakin shows off his power and takes a few steps down the dark path...

>>>And ummm...why? Nothing in the movie to indicate why he would be moved to abandon the views he held for the rest of the movie. Again, that not character development, it character jump.

Obi Wan before Qui Gon dies- does what Qui Gon tells him to do.
Obi Wan after Qui Gon dies- does what Qui Gon tells him to do.

I don't think it's a huge jump, or that anything's being abandoned...

>>>Again, one has to ask why. If there was a conversation wirth Ani perhaps, which really does illustrate to Kenobi that the kid should be trained, then maybe I'll understand the apology. As it is, it's another 'character' jump. The same as the character jump Anya had, from a vengeance demon who understood human emotion since she served the job for thousands of years to the clueless 'Cordelia wannabe' who is only defined by her relationship with Xander.

He says that it's not his place to argue with Qui Gon about what he does with Anakin. That's the intermediate.
1) Obi Wan just sides with the council over Qui Gon- "the boy is dangerous- they can sense it, why can't you?" (Note- nothing about what Obi Wan himself thinks or senses.) Qui Gon says that his futures' uncertain- not dangerous.
2) Obi Wan, after time to reflect, apologises to Qui Gon, saying that it's not his place to argue with Qui Gon (ie. it's the Council's place.)
3) Qui Gon dies, Obi Wan takes up his sword, and takes on the responsibility of training Anakin, which he thinks he can do a good job of.

As for BTVS, are you saying that Anya should have bonded with her distraught friend by using her Vengence Demon skills of encouraging vengenge and wrath? To be honest, I can't see how that would have worked out... Or are you saying that as a demon, she brought out inner peace and forgiveness in people, so she should be able to do it as a human?

 

because he thought he could do just as good a job (otherwise he wouldn't have trained him, would he? Do you think he planned to half-train Anakin?)

I don't think that even entered into his mind at that point. There is no evidence of it. He is doing it because of his promise to Qui-Gon, his own abilities in comparison to Yoda do not appear to have anything to do with it. He made an oath, he's going to keep it, he's going to get it done somehow. And more than that, he was obviously quite willing to discuss things with Yoda and Mace regarding Anakin in AOTC. Yoda, Mace and Obi-Wan's interaction in fact seems quite comfortable under the circumstances, as though the three of them are always getting together to discuss things, not necessarily Anakin, but the point is--he seems rather buddy buddy with them.

Sitting around for 20 years doing nothing but waiting for Luke to invite himself over is proactive?

You know perfectly well what I meant. The way it was played out was basically he was forced, in a sense, to sit around for twenty years "doing nothing" BECAUSE of his prior "proactivity". What more ironic "punishment"(not saying it is a punishment) for someone like that than to have one's role be to sit around in the middle of a desert at the end of the galaxy?

a) Obi Wan doesn't do anything on his own- he relies entirely on Qui Gon (as has obviously been picked up on here)
b) He only "graduates" because of outside intervention- no trials were set by the council.


No Obi-Wan behaves as a proper Jedi padawan, he doesn't rely on Qui-Gon, he follows Qui-Gon's lead. That is his rank, that is the rank of every Jedi right up until the minute they become a knight. By virtue of their ranks they follow their master's lead even if the next day they pass their trials and are given full knighthood. As for the trials, Obi-Wan did better in his "un set up" trials against the first Sith anyone has fought in a thousand years than Anakin did in his little trial of his mission alone with Padme. What Obi-Wan faced there was way tougher than anything the Council would have come up with and they knew it, so that's why they "graduated" him.

And again you just keep making the same point we were making--now the character is much weaker, much "wishy washier", has much less strength of character and thus is much less tragic than he otherwise could have been all because Qui-Gon was given over the whole film of TPM while Obi-Wan languished doing nothing. What makes you think this is a good thing? This in turn weakens everything else in relation to it, it weakens the goings on around Anakin's turn, it weakens the emotional impact of the relationship between Obi-Wan and Anakin which also affects the emotional impact of Anakin's turn, etc, etc. It's a snowball effect.

Obi Wan before Qui Gon dies- does what Qui Gon tells him to do.
Obi Wan after Qui Gon dies- does what Qui Gon tells him to do.


Ditto. You've just said again what I was saying--no character development for Obi-Wan. Qui-Gon's total takeover of TPM made Obi-Wan a weaker, less dynamic character and pretty much ripped his whole character arc to shreds. He hasn't got a character arc, he's simply a plot device who jumps forward and backward depending on what George needs to happen at any given moment. However he still does make a jump in TPM--he's not shown doing things for character reasons, he's not shown having revelations and developing, he just does things because the OT said he trained Anakin Skywalker and so he has to at the end train Anakin Skwalker. He does make the jump from being clearly supportive of the Council, even if he would still behave as proper to his rank as Qui-Gon's padawan by apologizing for disagreeing with him so vehemently, to suddenly going in the opposite direction. It's not development. It's simply a jump from point A to point B because we know from the OT point B has to happen. Rather than making it organic to the story and characterization, it's forced.

What does he d

 

"Upon returning to Coruscant, Obi-Wan gives Yoda and the Council his ultimatum: either he trains Anakin within the bounds of the Jedi Order or on his own. Yoda relents, and the stage is set for Episode II."


I think what you said here would make Obi-Wan seem less tragic and more stubborn in the eyes of viewers, thus not allowing them to relate to his failure later in the series. The circumstances in The Phantom Menace as they stand with Qui-Gon insisting that Anakin be trained out of belief for him being The Chosen One, him dying, and Obi-Wan being placed with that burden out of respect for his dead master's wishes makes Obi-Wan all the more tragic. The audience indentifies with this more so because Obi-Wan failed but with the best of intentions: Loyalty and respect for his former master and belief that he was doing his part to make the universe a better place by progressing the prophecy of The Chosen One. And that sometimes the worst things can happen with the best intentions, thus making Obi-Wan all the more tragic and identifiable with to the viewer.

 

"Upon returning to Coruscant, Obi-Wan gives Yoda and the Council his ultimatum: either he trains Anakin within the bounds of the Jedi Order or on his own. Yoda relents, and the stage is set for Episode II."


I think what you said here would make Obi-Wan seem less tragic and more stubborn in the eyes of viewers, thus not allowing them to relate to his failure later in the series. The circumstances in The Phantom Menace as they stand with Qui-Gon insisting that Anakin be trained out of belief for him being The Chosen One, him dying, and Obi-Wan being placed with that burden out of respect for his dead master's wishes makes Obi-Wan all the more tragic.

No it makes him less tragic. You need a strong character to be tragic, someone with very definite ideas and beliefs, not someone who's motto could be "My master said..." or conversely "The Council said...".

Tragic is Obi-Wan truly coming to the conclusion that Anakin is the Chosen One and that he must be trained and that he will do that training, despite everyone's warning against it. That's tragic. Obi-Wan still has the best intentions, he is doing something he really believes in, but it's wrong. Tragedy is caused by weakness but a weakness isn't necessarily a tragedy--as it is Obi-Wan has the weaknesses but they aren't tragic weaknesses because he is portrayed with no particular strengths or standout characteristics, he became simply wishy washy and weak.