Qui-Gon ruined TPM!

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by hew, Sep 7, 2002.

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  1. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    Good argument and points but I disagree about Obi-Wan being weak because we've only seen him in 2/3 of his definitive state thus far. I believe George Lucas has great things in store of the character of Obi-Wan Kenobi for Episode III, and has since the beginnings of the PT. This next and final episode will really define and change our perception of Obi-Wan IMHO.
  2. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Well let's hope so, because it's all hanging very much on EP III and there isn't much leeway left.
  3. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Whoa, there, six hypens and five underscores, GL has already changed and redefined our view of Obi-Wan from the OT! He'd better do his best to get him back on course!

    Lady SJK
  4. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    Oh boy, another "Let's wait 'till Episode 3" argument. Should I use the " [face_laugh] " emotiocon, or the " [face_plain] " emotiocon?
  5. pandawan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 1
    Well, Lurking, it *is* the case that we are all busily analysing a story that we don't have all the parts to, isn't it?

    I agree that GL has shown us a different obiwan in the PT so far...but that's life, right? Aging and developing and having different experiences...

    I think we'll have a vision of obiwan as always doing what was required of him, of striving to do the right thing even if it doesn't bring him praise or peace. (Contrast obiwan's apparent sense of "I'll do what I must": as quigon says when obiwan begs him not to disobey the council again, and quigon's. And think too of the ANH's obiwan's comments to luke about how 'you must do what you feel is right, of course'. choices...doing what we're told, doing what we want, doing what's right for others, doing something we're not so sure about...) GL showed us him doing this in TPM, I believe. He was an apprentice and acted it.
    Appropriately. Unlike his apprentice, right?
    There's one potential reason for including his master, he who trained him, Qui-gon. We get to contrast his relationship with Quigon and his with Anakin.
    Another potential reason, aside from of course the infamous "we don't know what GL has in store for him for ep3" argument: recall in AOTC that Obiwan wondered whether Quigon would have joined Dooku. Why does GL ask us to ponder this? Perhaps Obiwan's wondering about this is important down the line. It also sets up a context psychologically for obiwan watching anakin hook up perhaps with the allies of dooku soon. It sets up the prospect of leaving the order, an issue he must address with his padawan.
    I also think that quigon fulfills a role that is more than a granting of moral free-pass for obiwan on the training of anakin...it sets up a father figure for obiwan. A powerful, respected figure that I think needed to be invented. It couldn't be Yoda for instance; he's more the embodied abstraction of jedi-ness and transcendence. And we couldn't kill him off to show obiwan dealing with loss--that is another important function of quigon. His death was important in showing how obiwan dealt with the loss. It was glossed over, really, at the end with the standard sad/happy parade stuff, but we can see how that contrasts with the loss response Anakin has. i don't think that obiwan is shown to feel guilt at his loss any more than Luke is shown to feel guilt at his loss of his father. Obiwan bears it and does what's required of him. He questioned whether his master was right in wanting to train the boy, but he does it because he feels he must respect his master.
    Again, in contrast to Anakin, who doesn't do much out of respect for Obiwan. And I also think that though it was perhaps a change from the OT vision of Obiwan sort of finding a grown anakin and saying hey, guy, let's go on a damned-fool crusade, i'll train you...that's only because GL's whole vision of the jedi and of the path he wanted to depict for Anakin's life changed some from the time of ANH.
    Having Obiwan reluctant to train Anakin and having this other figure about whose better suitability for training Anakin we can all spend so much energy debating also feeds into the
    idea that I think can be attributed to GL that Anakin's fall should be understandable...he is not pure evil. He could be one of us. He is a man (hence that awful 'you're only human' line after the tusken slaughter), and we all make our choices and Anakin makes his...BUT see his context. Sympathize with him...I know some of us can. Obiwan can be seen, can be understood, to be less than enthusiastic about him. And his master, his own master! was ready to be done with him for the sake of training this clearly messed up little brat. I don't think that Obiwan conveys this to Anakin once Quigon dies, and that serves to bolster our confidence that Obiwan is true and trying. But his style is clearly different from Quigon's, also something that is sort of mysteriously but clearly created in TPM. I'd be surprised frankly if there weren;'t some elaborations on the importance of those style d
  6. Sith_Mind Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2002
    star 1
    TPM ruined TPM. And the PT ruined SW. Until it goes away, that is. Ah, in three years the public humiliation ends!!

    But seriously, Liam Neeson was one of the only good things in TPM, methinks.
  7. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    recall in AOTC that Obiwan wondered whether Quigon would have joined Dooku.

    Obi-Wan didn't wonder whether Qui-Gon would join Dooku. He had no hesitation whatever is saying "Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you". He wondered whether what Dooku was saying about the Sith in the Senate was quite true, but as for what he said about Qui-Gon, he showed no doubt that he believed Qui-Gon would never have joined him.

    I have no doubt whatever that Qui-Gon probably would have ended up having a worse time with Anakin than Obi-Wan did, more experienced or not, in fact the experience might even work against him, he has expectations and he's been spoiled by having a nice little padawan who has a mind of his own, but is always willing to subjugate it to his master's lead even when he disagrees(and he didn't handle it to well when the disagreed more strongly). At least Obi-Wan practices what he preaches so to speak--he is respectful to his elders and always takes considering their advice strongly. With Qui-Gon, Anakin would have been expected to be an obedient padawan all whilst Qui-Gon went off doing what he must. To someone like Anakin it would just end up looking hypocritical and it would also have given those who would influence him towards the Dark side that much more of a hook--he expects you to listen to him and do what he says, yet he doesn't listen to anyone but himself and who is he to say he knows "the will of the Force" better than you, who have so many more midichlorians, etc, etc.

    There would also have been the shock of the "nice Jedi who freed me" turning into the strict master who expects to be listened to and to not have to explain himself as to why. There is also the fact that "I'm a person and my name is Anakin" was actually very much in Qui-Gon's mind not so much "the person Anakin" as "The Chosen One, answer to a prophecy Anakin" and certain expectations therein.

    And I don't think Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's styles really are all that much different, their beliefs are somewhat different but I don't think their styles are that much different and where it is, I actually think Obi-Wan comes out the better for it. He engages his padawan in conversation, he doesn't simply give him orders, he jokes with him, he engages him in debate(even if Anakin in his infinite wisdom likes to call them lectures) which can only bring about a greater understanding of the points involved unless said padawan is just being willfully ignorant, he tries to reason with him. With Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon gives orders and makes pronouncments and that's it.

    he has to--given what we know will happen.

    We don't know anything that will happen, aside from Anakin falling to the Dark Side. There were plenty of things we "knew" going into this prequel trilogy that Uncle George decided to use the old "point of view" trick on.

    I just don't think Obi-Wan needed a father figure. As everyone is so fond of saying "This is about Anakin". I mean what hell does Obi-Wan need a father figure for? Why not just make him full grown? But even with including Qui-Gon as a father figure, why in god's name did that mean Obi-Wan had to be shoved in a corner the whole film? Give him something to freakin' do that shows character development over the course of the film and reveals to us why he thinks and does things the way he does. He obviously respects and cares a great deal about his master, so why does he feel so strongly about the Council as well? Why are his opinions apparently so at odds with his master's? These are the things that shaped him and helped shape him into the person who trained Anakin--if it's so important for him to have a father figure wouldn't that also seem to mean it would be important to have insight into how this shaped him? So he's got a father figure and then it's put to no good use in actually developing the character.
  8. I_Am_Kit_Fisto Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 1, 2002
    star 1
    New ibo

    I don't think Obi needed a father figure as much as the target audience did, namely, children. The relationship between Obi & Qui was, for many children, the real emotional element in the film, next to Anakin & his mother. I can only go by the children I have observed, of course, but as far as they are concerned this is true. I think many other children probably feel the same way.

    For older viewers, TPM shows a rose-tinted portrait of the Jedi. We see how things "should" work. After watching Obi and his reverence for Qui we cannot help but notice that something is very different about Ankin in AOTC.
  9. pandawan Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2002
    star 1
    I like your points Kit_Fisto....
    and they build the father-figure argument without denying what Naw Ibo said and which I agree with...that the father-figure relationship isn't actually built upon at all satisfyingly.
    Yes, Naw, I agree that GL could have and should have used the relationship and their disagreement as a point from which to better understand Obiwan's character. I hope we see more and deeper understanding in ep3--I share your fears that GL won't come through.
    If he does, a lot will be forgiven in my book. I think he absolutely must do a much better job developing and enriching and deepening obiwan's character in ep3, and if he doesn't then he will have failed in a big way. Because though as you say others are fond of saying that this is about anakin, ben/obiwan is a huge part of the puzzle here. Obiwan serves as the father-figure to Anakin now...he is the contact point between the PT and the OT, he should be the one who knows Anakin best. It is hinted at with the drama say of Anakin's laast thoughts in ROTJ novelization, but AOTC so much more focused on the relationship between Padme and Anakin. If GL doesn't re-focus things in Ep3 on the relationship between Obi and Ani and really allow us to understand Obi more, then he will have screwed up his story-line in a rather big way I think. Fallen prey to some strangely altered vision that I haven't understood yet. If he does develop obiwan reasonably, then maybe...just maybe...the under-use and development of obiwan in TPM will "just" seem like toying with us, dancing around the issue of obiwan's character, and not gross story-line abuse.
    maybe?
  10. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    If GL doesn't re-focus things in Ep3 on the relationship between Obi and Ani and really allow us to understand Obi more, then he will have screwed up his story-line in a rather big way I think. Fallen prey to some strangely altered vision that I haven't understood yet.

    Amen!

    :D
  11. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    kit-fisto I am not a child (haven't been for a long while); I can honestly say that I like the rose-tinted view of the Jedi in their glory days. As a result, the tragedy of the extermination of the Jedi order in the OT, has now become much more acute for me. I now mourn the loss of the Jedi order even more than the dictatorship, tyrrany, and xenophobia of the Empire.

    As far as Obi-Wan needing a father figure, I think this came from wanting a parallel to the OT. Luke had a "good" father figure in Ben, and GL probably wanted to show something similar to that. I agree that this relationship was not well-developed, but is left to us to fill-in-the blanks. In the OT, I always believed that Yoda was the one and only master that Obi-Wan had. Now, a CGI Yoda couldn't go about and do the things that Qui-Gon managed to do in TPM, so perhaps GL decided to create a human Master for Obi.

    As far as EIII, I am hoping that there is a parallel to ROTJ as far as QG is concerned. In ROTJ, Ben says that he had made a mistake w.r.t to Anakin; Luke accepts that as well as Obi-wan's not having told the truth before, and then goes to try and confront Vader and "correct" the mistakes of the past. Perhaps, in EIII, Qui-Gon will appear and confess that he was wrong to have wanted Anakin trained as a Jedi (even tho' he was the CO). Obi-Wan will accept that his master made a mistake (just as when we grow up, we accept our parents as human and fallible, but love them nevertheless) and will attempt to correct it. Again, QG's role is partly in setting up the OT parallels. But going back to the original issue, TPM would have been better had Obi-Wan been more "visible" and "adventurous".
  12. Blix Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2002
    star 1
    IMHO, Qui-Gon was the strongest character in TPM. I really liked how he was wise but also reckless. A great character.
  13. AUNTIE_JEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2002
    star 4
    Blix - I agree. Without Qui-Gon it would have been much harder to develop Obi-Wan's and Anakin's relationship as complicated as it is in AOTC.

    I hope we will see him (or his ghost) in EpIII :cool:

    [image=http://www.starwars.nu/bilder/bildarkiv/filmerna/thephantommenace/lightsaber.jpg]
  14. servigon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2000
    I think TPM wold have been a lot cooler without Qui-Gon (anybody remember that issue of Vanity fair that had a picture of Obi-Wan fighting Darth Maul on Tatooine, how cool was that.) However, the whole saga works better with Qui-Gon as it is. We get to see the relationships between the three of them (Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan/Anakin) and that is a lot to ask. I just think that getting to see what happens before the OT is amazing whether it is what I want or not. One could argue that instead of three debatable movies we could have seen one really cool one. Does it really take three movies to tell how Anakin went dark? I don´t think so.
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Man that Qui-Gon was cool.
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