Qui-Gon ruined TPM!

Grizham1, I dont like your attitude!
You just hate and hate on Gl all day long, cant you find something better to do?

Hew, I agree fully with what you say, good call

 

"So many assumptions..."

I don't know what you are talking about.

"Yep, and this is a problem many of us have with his characterization in TPM. He isn't reckless."

He wasn't reckless in the OT either so I don't see anything different about Obi-wan's characterization (except for the fact that he likes to tell a few white lies in the OT whereas he doesn't do that in the prequals) and besides, he was only saying that to convince Yoda to train Luke.

"Eliminate the Qui-Gon character, or just make him more of a background character, and all of a sudden Obi-wan looks exactly like he describes himself in the OT."

The problem with that is that is not only will everyone will be complaining that Qui-Gon was wasted and should have had more character development and screentime like they are doing with Darth Maul, it will also destroy the greatest lightsaber battle ever created because now it will be just Obi-wan fighting Maul.

You also risk messing up the continuity in AOTC by eliminating Dooku's motivation behind his decision to leave the Jedi Order and join forces with Darth Sidious.

Let's leave everything like it should be, okay?

"How could they do everything for each other if they have known the other for a few days?"

Does the words "good samaritain" ring a bell?

Anakin, believing that Qui-Gon will free him and train him as a jedi, wanted to help Qui-Gon and co. afford a new engine by entering in the podrace while Qui-Gon bet Anakin's freedom in the race because he feels there's something special about the boy.

You can ask a similar question like why would Obi-wan decide to take Anakin as his apprentice even when he shares the council's opinion that Anakin shouldn't be trained due to his age and his clouded future?


"Hello, can you not honestly not think of anything that will cause them to cease being friends? For one thing, Anakin chooses the quick and easy path in his training."

But that explanation is not good enough.

A lot of people have problems with the pacing of their training whether it's in a Karate class, in the army, the navy, or the air force but you don't see anyone turning evil because of it, do you?

Besides, it will take something extreme for Anakin to turn against Obi-wan like the recent deaths of his loved ones which is the case when Ani blamed Obi-wan for the death of his mother.

He also resented Obi-wan for leaving Qui-Gon to die at the hands of Darth Maul and when Anakin loses Padme, that will be the final straw causing him to go nuclear on everyone starting with Obi-wan.

"But Han still gets the reward when they get to Yavin 4. So no, it wasn't a lie."

I know he got his money eventually but he was told that he get it on Alderaan, not Yavin 4 so it is a lie.

"How do you figure? Did I miss some EU novel explaining this?"

That is not from an EU novel, this is merely a suggestion of what would happen if Luke killed Vader and discovered his identity afterwards.

 

"He also resented Obi-wan for leaving Qui-Gon to die at the hands of Darth Maul"

PPOR

"I know he got his money eventually but he was told that he get it on Alderaan, not Yavin 4 so it is a lie."

If you say something that you believe to be true, you're not lying even if it turns out to be wrong. Sheesh.

 

He wasn't reckless in the OT either

But he described his younger persona as being reckless. Unfortunately we'll never get to see if this was true or not.

You also risk messing up the continuity in AOTC by eliminating Dooku's motivation behind his decision to leave the Jedi Order and join forces with Darth Sidious.

This was never explained anyway. GL messed up the continuity himself by never telling us why Dooku left.

Anakin, believing that Qui-Gon will free him and train him as a jedi, wanted to help Qui-Gon and co. afford a new engine by entering in the podrace while Qui-Gon bet Anakin's freedom in the race because he feels there's something special about the boy.


Replace all of those "Qui-Gon"'s with "Obi Wan" and it still works. In fact it makes it more consistent with the story the OT was telling about Obi Wan and Anakin's earlier life.

Besides, it will take something extreme for Anakin to turn against Obi-wan like the recent deaths of his loved ones which is the case when Ani blamed Obi-wan for the death of his mother.


And how would this change if it was Obi Wan who discovered Anakin and convinced the council to let him train Anakin? Oh yeah, it wouldn't.

That is not from an EU novel, this is merely a suggestion of what would happen if Luke killed Vader and discovered his identity afterwards.

Okay, so you have no basis at all for this, just you own assumptions? Just clearing this up a little.

 

I've still not really thought this one through, hew, but here goes nothing ...

I don't think GL invented Qui-Gon just to offer employment to another actor; I think he'd realised that having Obi-Wan discover and sponsor Anakin was going to cause a problem in scripting later parts of the prequel trilogy. Now you want to rewrite TPM and give Obi-Wan Qui-Gon's character! O...K...

So Obi-Wan meets Anakin, enlists his help to get the parts they need, decides he's the Chosen One and must be trained as a Jedi, contrives to free him and takes him off to meet the Council. Of course, he also gets to know quite a lot about Anakin's background and, particularly, he gets to know Anakin's mother.
We know now that it's OK for Jedi to have non-Jedi friends (e.g. Dexter) and a more defiant and reckless Obi-Wan would probably have had a whole load of interesting pals - the sort who might do business with the Hutts and might, now and then, visit Tatooine. Of course, we don't know that 'our' Obi-Wan didn't, but we do know he never met Shmi. An Obi-Wan who actually knew Anakin's mother might well, IMO, think it perfectly acceptably to send her news of her son's progress when the opportunity arose and, if he did that, sooner or later he'd have found out about her changed status. An Obi-Wan with a Qui-Gon personality transplant would probably have told Anakin about it, allowing his feelings for his mother to move forward naturally, because I don't believe he would have considered those feelings per se undesirable.

It all comes back to Anakin's emotional baggage from his childhood, about which only three people (Jar Jar, Padme and Qui-Gon) knew anything of substance. Whilst I'd not go so far as to say that Qui-Gon could have prevented Anakin's turn to the Dark Side, I do think it helped the credibility of AotC that his mentor wasn't up to speed on that score. Sheesh, I'm not at all sure Qui-Gon would have let Anakin go off on his own with Padme - to heck with what the Council said!

 

Well put, hew . Your plotline looks more promising than the actual TPM plotline. The movie was great, the characters were believable mostly, the music was exciting, and the duel at the end was absolutely fantastic.

But there was no plot in the movie. It's like go to Naboo, get the queen out, stop by for repairs on Tatooine, find the Chosen One; come to Coruscant, argue with JC, hurt your apprentice, go back to Naboo, fight, die, train, happy. The end.

The plot could have been better. TPM should have at least started to show why Obi-Wan was guilty in ANH about failing to train Anakin. If he had found Anakin, brought him to the Jedi Temple, trained him, then he would be entitled for the guilt.

I suppose he would feel guilty even now, but still....

Aunecah_Skywalker

 

Jeff42-

PPOR? What for? Just because we don't see Anakin actually resenting Obi-wan for leaving Qui-Gon to die doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Stone Jedi-

"But he described his younger persona as reckless. Unfortunately we'll never get to see if this is true or not."

Since when did anything Obi-wan say turn out to be true?

"This was never explained anyway. GL messed up the continuity himself by never telling us why Dooku left."

The lost 20 discussion would have told us why Dooku left and thankfully Lucas is putting this scene on the DVD.

"Replace all of those "Qui-Gon"'s with "Obi-wan" and the story still works. In fact it makes it more consistent with the story in the OT was telling about Obi-wan and Anakin's early life."

Why worry about making the story more consistent with the one in the OT when you know that every character in the OT has lied through their teeths?

Lucas made Obi-wan a liar when he made Anakin and Darth Vader the same person and Yoda wasn't exactly honest with Luke either. Owen and Beru lied about Anakin being a navigator in a space freighter and Leia lied about the rebel base being on Dantooine. Han lied to Jabba about paying him back the money he promised to give him and Lando lied about the Empire not knowing that Cloud City existed.

Lastly, Luke lied to Jabba and his goons about being a Jedi knight and we all know he won't be a full fledged jedi until he defeats Vader and not give in to the darkside at the same time.

The only characters who haven't been telling lies are Anakin/Vader and the Emperor because they weren't afraid to tell the truth since they made the entire galaxy a barren wasteland and were proud of it. Nothing is gonna go the way you expected to because of this which is why Lucas is making the prequals the way he did.

"And how would this change if Obi-wan discovered Anakin and convinced the council to let him train Anakin? Oh yeah, it wouldn't."

Actually, it would because if Obi-wan were the one to discover Anakin and convince the council to let him train the boy, then Anakin won't act so cocky, disobedient, and arrogant around Obi-wan because he will treat him the same way like he treated Qui-Gon.

Also, the chosen one prophecy won't be mentioned because Obi-wan never heard of it nor did he believed that it was true which throws away any motivations that made Anakin into the person he is in AOTC making him just a normal jedi and it would be illogical to believe that Anakin would turn against Obi-wan just because he doesn't like the pacing of his training.

Lastly, Anakin won't blame Obi-wan for what will happen to Shmi and Padme because Ani will be too friendly to Obi-wan to even think about cursing out his name or accuse him of anything thus throwing away any excuses behind Anakin's betrayal to Obi-wan.

The story would be too out of place because noone would buy that Anakin would fall to the darkside and turn against Obi-wan because of the way Obi-wan is training him.

I sure as hell don't buy it.

 

While I don't believe Qui-Gon ruined TPM, there are benefits in drawbacks to having Obi-Wan complete many of Qui-Gon's action in TPM.

Benefits
I agree with an early post that says Obi-Wan should have been sent alone to negotiate with the Trade Federation. The opening scroll could have remained the same, except at the end it could have read something similar to the following.

On recommendation of Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn, the Jedi Council has sent padawan learner Obi-Wan Kenobi, nearing the end of his training, to settle the conflict.

Then you'd have Obi-Wan rescue the Queen, but with more difficulty. He'd have a tougher time dealing with the Gungans in Otah Gunga and so on. Panaka and the rest of the group wouldn't trust his decisions and advice as much because he's still in training and in way over his head.

After discovering Anakin and realizing he might be the chosen one, Obi-Wan and the group would arrive on Coruscant, but instead of having Anakin go with Jar Jar and the Queen, Obi-Wan would introduce him to his master Qui-Gon and he'd stay with him as Obi-Wan reported back to the Jedi Council. While Obi-Wan explains what has happened to the Council, Qui-Gon and Anakin would share a quiet moment in Qui-Gon's living quarters, which we have yet to see in the prequel trilogy, and after meeting the boy and spending some time with him, also comes to believe that he might be the chosen one.

The scene on the balcony would be mostly the same, except Obi-Wan would worry about the council not allowing Anakin to be trained and Qui-Gon would reassure him that he has his support.

Then they're both summoned to the council, the council refuses to train Anakin and Qui-Gon says he will train him. The scene remains mostly the same, but Qui-Gon is now told to go with Obi-Wan to Naboo to protect the Queen. Instead of arguing on the landing pad, Obi-Wan, not quite as headstrong and still doubting his abilities, would ask Qui-Gon if he really thinks he's ready for the trials, after all that's happened. Qui-Gon would reassure him and the movie would play out as is, the dialouge once Obi-Wan dies wouldn't have to be the changed either. Qui-Gon's last words being a reassurance to Obi-Wan that Anakin is indeed the chosen one and needs to be trained.

Drawbacks

If Obi-Wan was the main character in TPM we wouldn't see as clearly what type of student he is. Obi-Wan is an obedient student under Qui-Gon, listens and minds his master, while Anakin forces the issue and argues his point, even if he's showing a lack of respect towards his master.
By making Obi-Wan and Anakin relatively young, we see them in the early stages of their lives, before larger events make them more important players in that galaxy far, far away.

 

Lastly, Anakin won't blame Obi-wan for what will happen to Shmi and Padme because Ani will be too friendly to Obi-wan to even think about cursing out his name or accuse him of anything thus throwing away any excuses behind Anakin's betrayal to Obi-wan.


Oh sure, friends never turn against friends due to small resentments which end up, in difficult situations, blow up into full fledged feuds. That certainly never happens. Just like marriages that start out in hope and happiness never end in bitterness and divorce. Rrrriiight.

As I said before, I think Lucas was lazy. We know he hates the writing part of it. He knew it would probably take more care than he was willing to put into the characterizations(not just of Anakin) and dialogue to make it work well like that, despite the fact that it would scan better with the OT and would make for a much more emotionally satisfying falling out and break in the relationship for the audience.

So he took the lazy way out. Instead of showing us the dissolution of a real relationship he chose to go the route of showing us the breaking of a relationship that no one ever got to see working to begin with.

 

"Oh sure, friends never turn against friends due to small resentments which ends up, in difficult situations, blow up into full fledged fueds. That certainly never happens. Just like marriages that start out with hope and happiness never end in bitterness and divorce. Rrrriiight. "

Being sarcastic, are we?

You know, some marriages do last longer then the celebrity marriages which last only 6 months or the whole year and I know most friends who don't let small resentments get in the way of their friendship.

"So he took the lazy way out. Instead of showing us the dissolution of a real relationship he chose to go the route of showing us the breaking of a relationship that no one ever got to see working to begin with."

That's the point.

Anakin is going to be Darth Vader and join forces with the Emperor in Episode 3 and it doesn't work to have him and Obi-wan be good friends knowing that the latter will occur early on.

It would be sloppy storytelling to establish Anakin and Obi-wan as good friends in 2 movies and then all of a sudden break them up by the third film for no good reason and without any creative input on how a jedi master can properly train his student so that we would know what Obi-wan went wrong with Anakin and what will cause Anakin to turn against Obi-wan.

Having Qui-Gon in TPM helps provide the creative input on how jedi masters train their students, why Obi-wan fails to properly train Anakin, and why Anakin will turn against him.

 

Yes, I appreciated seeing the way how Masters interact with their padawans on missions. And Qui-Gon's way of teaching Obi-Wan is compared to how Obi-Wan taught Anakin. In my book, there really is a slight comparison. Qui-Gon was the better teacher, as has been mentioned time and again.

 

That's the point.

Anakin is going to be Darth Vader and join forces with the Emperor in Episode 3 and it doesn't work to have him and Obi-wan be good friends knowing that the latter will occur early on.


That's the point? That George Lucas was lazy and didn't want to have to do the work involved in showing how a relationship that seems to start off well can end in acrimony? Which actually happens all the time in real life, whether it be , family relationships, friendships or marriages. That has nothing to do with celebrity marriages lasting 15 minutes, in fact it sometimes happens in marriages(and friendships and family relationships) which have lasted for a decade or longer between perfectly normal everyday average people. In fact it's often said that the people who make the worst enemies are those who were once the closest friends.

It works perfectly fine having them start off on a good note and then having it fall apart slowly overtime--where their little differences, and everyone has little differences with the people they are closest to, grow into major rifts due to the personalities of the people involved. And actually it works better because it fits in with what we were told in the OT.

It wouldn't be the matter of showing Obi-Wan and Anakin having a great relationship for two whole films and then suddenly busting up in the third. It would be showing us their relationship starting with hope and the best intentions towards each other(EP I) and slowly over time coming apart(next two films--EP II showing us that they had a close relationship but that they had their differences of opinion--after all Anakin has had ten years to grow and learn about the life he had chosen for himself ten years earlier and ending up much in the same way as it did anyway, with Anakin's secret marriage and then EP III showing us the final dissolution).

And it doesn't show us anything of sort because Qui-Gon was not the perfect teacher. In fact on the TPM DVD Lucas says that what Anakin is missing with Obi-Wan is what he'd be missing with Qui-Gon and that is those early years of Jedi training. The whole point is that Anakin doesn't fall because of Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon, Anakin falls because of Anakin.

 

What JMaster Luke is actually saying, is take everything that was written for Qui Gon, his characteristics, his methods, his personality, and apply it to Obi-Wan. Even if Obi-Wan was too young to be fatherly to Luke, they could have made him somewhat older.

After all, I have a hard time believing Obi-Wan at age 56 or so in the OT is so useless with a lightsaber, when Qui-Gon, at roughly the same age in the PT was so effecient, and Dooku, at 80 in AOTC was even better.

 

If you ask me, there was never a need for anyone to be 'fatherly' toward Anakin. Certainly not Kenobi. In ANH and ROTJ, the words he used to describe Anakin was "..a good friend". Not "..he was like a son" or anything like that. So, a young Kenobi being great friends with Anakin would work, without any need for Kenobi to be fatherly. Thus eliminating any need for Qui Gon to be the father figure (if you call gambling with a young boy's life and taking him away from his mother as 'fatherly' )

*shrug*

 

"This was never explained anyway. GL messed up the continuity himself by never telling us why Dooku left."

Doesn't Dooku say this himself- because of the corruption in the Senate?

 

I've often wondered how TPM would have played out with ObI the main character and not Qui-Gon. I suppose that if you look at it, by having Obi as an apprentice at the beginning, it shows how most young Jedi would respond to their Master. By E2, when Obi is in charge of Anakin, it shows the difficulties a Jedi has in training someone who is talented but impatient.

 

For me, Qui-Gon represented 'The Old Guard' Jedi. What the Jedi might have been like in the ealier (and wiser?) days of the Republic.
His arguments with the JC, and his death, parallel (and illustrate?) the general and slow decline of 'mindfullness'in the living Force, towards the beginnings of the cold and mechanistic Empire.

I thought he was an awesome Jedi, and that Luke could have learned just as much about the Force from one as Qui-Gon as he does from Yoda.

Qui-Gon was the best character in TPM for my money!

 

I don't deny that Qui Gon as potrayed by Neeson was certainly one of the bright moements from TPM. Best character in TPM? Arguably yes! (and hey, I'm a basher here )But what I (and some of the others who share this view) felt is that GL gave too much time for Qu Gon and too little time for Kenobi. And not only inadequate time, but personality as well. Kenobi was just...there.

I mean, if Kenobi was some Bond girl designed to just pout and look hot, then there won't be any complaints from me But the only thing we see about Kenobi was that he frowns stands beside Qui Gon, and deosn't really do anything until Qui Gon dies. And where was his freindship with Anakin??? Guess the line in ROTJ have to be changed...

Kenobi: "Oh, Anakin and I were OK I guess. Actually, I thought he was a brat, and a pathetic lifeform. Sorry Luke, but we weren't buddies. It's just me and my certain point of view."

Luke: "Nooooooo!!!!"

 

I thought Obi Wan's friendship with Anakin happened after TPM. (Kinda like how Luke's friendship with Han happened after ANH...)

 

"For me, Qui-Gon represented 'The Old Guard' Jedi. What the Jedi might have been like in the ealier (and wiser?) days of the Republic.
His arguments with the JC, and his death, parallel (and illustrate?) the general and slow decline of 'mindfullness'in the living Force, towards the beginnings of the cold and mechanistic Empire."

Great points. I agree totally. QGJ IS the best character of the PT so far. He does more good for the story than bad. His differences from the rest of the Jedi show how stagnant and unaware the Jedi really are. That is a huge point GL is trying to convey.

 

Surely with his lying and cheating, Qui Gon is more of an example of the arrogance that has crept into the Jedi order- he's convinced that he's right about Anakin HAVING to be trained in the Jedi Arts, and through his single-minded determination and refusal to listen to the wisdom of the council, he brings us Darth Vader...

Arrogance. Pure and simple.

 

No.

Having the jedi council not believing Qui-Gon about the Sith's return and being attacked by one until he's killed, not realising that Palpatine has been poisoning Anakin's mind for 10 years, refusing to help Obi-wan with Anakin's training leaving him to handle the mess alone, and not doing diddly squat to give Anakin any kind of guidance on how to cope with the harsh realities of life or try to train him the way Yoda and Obi-wan will do Luke later on is what brought them Darth Vader.

That is arrogance.

Besides, you can't have Anakin kill the Emperor and bring balance to the force with absolutely no knowledge of the force or any training in the jedi arts knowing that Anakin will be annihilated instantly by the Emperor and yes, Qui-Gon did cheat but he is NOT a liar unlike some other jedi who shall remain nameless....*cough**Obi-wan**cough*.

"That's the point? That George Lucas was lazy and didn't want to have to do the work involved in showing how a relationship that seems to start off well can end in acrimony?"

No, that Anakin and Obi-wan CAN'T be friends because if that happened as well as Obi-wan being the one to find Anakin, then like Qui-Gon, Anakin will look up to Obi-wan like he's Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, or Superman as every other child does in real life when they look up to someone they admired the most.

When that happens, nothing Palpatine will say can change Anakin into the person we see in AOTC nor will it convince him to turn against Obi-wan because Anakin looks up to him more than he does Palpatine.

You got to have Anakin look up to somebody else namely Qui-Gon in order to have Palpatine successfully warp Anakin's mind to the point where Ani looks up to him the most and to make Anakin's betrayal of Obi-wan more convincing.

Qui-Gon may not be the perfect teacher but at least he is smart enough to know how to train jedi or else Obi-wan would never have succeeded in not giving in to the darkside when he finished off Darth Maul.

 

>>>Besides, you can't have Anakin kill the Emperor and bring balance to the force with absolutely no knowledge of the force or any training in the jedi arts knowing that Anakin will be annihilated instantly by the Emperor

Why not? Without any knowledge of the Force or training in the Jedi Arts he managed to singlehandedly stop the battledroid invasion. And he wasn't even trying...

and yes, Qui-Gon did cheat but he is NOT a liar unlike some other jedi who shall remain nameless....*cough**Obi-wan**cough*.

So he aquired a pod racer in a game of chance? And was checking Anakin's blood "for infections"?

From what point of view?

 

"Why not? Without any knowledge of the Force or training in the Jedi Arts he managed to singlehandely stop a battledroid invasion. And he wasn't even trying."

But he blew up the control ship by accident and that's NOT what I call using the force because he didn't have some jedi ghost call him from the grave to tell him to "use the force" like his son, Luke has.

"So he aquired a pod racer in a game of chance?"

That was Anakin's idea to have Qui-Gon say that to Watto.

From the dinner scene:

Shmi-Anakin! Watto won't let you.

Anakin-Watto doesn't know I've built it. (To Qui-Gon) You can make him think it was yours.

"And was checking Anakin's blood "for infections"?"

That could have happened offscreen before he told Obi-wan to make a midichlorian count on Anakin's blood.

 

>>>But he blew up the control ship by accident and that's NOT what I call using the force because he didn't have some jedi ghost call him from the grave to tell him to "use the force" like his son, Luke has.

No, but with his thousands of midichlorians constantly telling him the Will of the Force, does he really need Jedi training in how to manipulate it before he can follow it?

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

>>>>That was Anakin's idea to have Qui-Gon say that to Watto.

It's still Qui Gon lying to Watto though.

"It takes two to lie- one to lie and one to listen."

>>>That could have happened offscreen before he told Obi-wan to make a midichlorian count on Anakin's blood.

He could have done, but it's a bit of a stretch of the imagination... Especially as we see him immediately call Obi Wan and ask him for a midichlorian count.