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Qui-Gon ruined TPM!

Discussion in 'Archive: The Phantom Menace' started by hew, Sep 7, 2002.

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  1. ferelwookie

    ferelwookie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Oh god. Please don't sink to the level of using box office (unadjusted) to prove the "quality" of a movie. Right now, Indepence Day has made more money than AOTC (adjusted AND unadjusted). Does that make it a better movie? Schindler's List didn't gross more than 100 million...I guess Independence Day, Austin Powers III, and XxX are "better" movies then. Please. [face_plain]
     
  2. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    It makes it successful.

    The weird thing is a film would be very lucky to have the kind of following that TPM and AOTC enjoyed. The reason why so many people act like they "failed" is because everyone expected to like it.

    No film is liked by everyone.

    P.S. I was talking adjusted figures...
     
  3. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    I personally don't see why we needed more Kenobi. He wasn't integral to the story all the time, and to focus on him because he is "Ewan McGregor" or because he was one of the "cool characters" from the classic trilogy sort of goes against the philosophy of being true to the story.


    He SHOULD have been because we needed to know about the kind of person he was BEFORE he took on Anakin as that is going to have an influence. We didn't get to see enough of him or to learn enough about him in ANY kind of depth in TPM. It has nothing to do with being "cool" or with being Ewan McGregor, it's just lucky an actor like Ewan was playing him or else Obi-Wan would have been a total non-entity and not even managed to have the miniscule presence he managed to squeeze out of the part.

    True to story would have not had Qui-Gon Jinn taking over the whole danged movie. That didn't happen in any other Star Wars film.

    Seeing as Obi-Wan is the one who was going to be defeating the Sith at the end, being true to the story in terms of how the other stories are formatted would have meant seeing his development throughout the film so that way we'd know what got him to that point, how the issues he was struggling with prior to that were overcome, or not, to allow him to defeat Maul. That would have been true to the way the rest of the films have been done.

    Kill Qui-Gon off just as they are getting ready to leave Tatooine(which would also echo Ben's being killed just when the others are about to escape the Death Star) and you get the best of both worlds, unexpectedly killed by a Sith cool Jedi Master who you and the other characters have grown attached to AND real character development for Obi-Wan plus getting to see Obi-Wan and Anakin starting to form their own relationship in the aftermath.

    This in turns adds to the depth of portrayals in EP II and EP III. I mean Palpatine uses the Naboo incident and Obi-Wan specifically in order to get Padme to accept Jedi protection("an old friend like Master Kenobi"--what old friend? They weren't friends, they would barely even qualify as acquaintances from what we saw) and then later on Padme insists that they have to go to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan, she looks more upset than Anakin does when he gets captured on the hologram(no I'm not suggesting anything funny :) )--yet in TPM they exchanged exactly two lines.

    And of course the audience interest and attachment to Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship would have been greatly enhanced by seeing it's beginnings in TPM and thus having a much more emotional reaction to it's slow and steady dissolution over the next two films.

    I can't imagine why anyone would say he was a "cold fish". I thought every time he was on screen taking jabs at Qui-Gon, he proved himself to have the better sense of humor of the two.

    Where have you been the last three+ years? ;) :D That was one of the biggest complaints even amongst people who liked the film--Obi-Wan came across as a one dimensional cold fish. Or when not as a complaint as a simple matter of fact that obviously Obi-Wan was cold and one dimensional, lacking depth.

    The way Lucas does it, there is no "well Qui-Gon told me to do it." And that's the point. He could have said that, but because he is the straight arrow, he takes reponsibility for his own actions.

    I didn't say Obi-Wan said that, of course he takes responsibility for his own actions. I said that is what in fact happens. That is his character arc in the prequels. "Qui-Gon told me". I'm sure Qui-Gon'll be telling him even more things to do when someone brings him back as a ghost. Even when he's a Jedi master in his own right we're still going to be getting "Qui-Gon told me".

    You don't lose that by losing Jinn half way through the film(heck you can still keep the death bed promise if you really want, just have it in the sands of Tatooine after Maul jumps on his speeder and gets away) I just think it's preferable and shows more proactivity for Obi-Wan to have hhmmm..."taken it upon" himse
     
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I thought we learned plenty about Kenobi before he took on Anakin's training, that was my whole point about why Qui-Gon has to be there as much as he is.

    I never heard of him being reffered to as a cold fish, and honestly, I don't understand that conclusion. He was much more "lively" than Qui-Gon was.

    I see your point but I think the whole saga is much better rounded for having Qui-Gon the way Lucas used him.

    In original drafts for ANH Luke was a girl. Does that mean it was wrong for Lucas to turn Luke into a boy?

    Same thing, it's just now you know about what could have been. Back then, you accepted ANH the way it ended up on screen, you didn't go back through his early drafts to see how he had "forsaken" the story.

    Qui-Gon did "tell him" but the whole point is he doesn't use that as a cop out.

     
  5. naw ibo

    naw ibo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 1999
    that was my whole point about why Qui-Gon has to be there as much as he is.

    We would have learned alot more about Obi-Wan Kenobi if we'd actually gotten to see HIM. You don't learn more about a character, a character does not get more development by not doing anything and being given next to nothing to say. It's a true case of out of sight, out of mind in TPM when it comes to Obi-Wan too, we didn't even get a scene where maybe Qui-Gon mentions him to Shmi or Anakin so we could learn something about him indirectly.

    Obi-Wan wasn't even needed to guard the ship. He didn't do anything the Naboo couldn't have done perfectly well on their own. Qui-Gon could have just told them, "don't send any transmissions without contacting me first" and it would have had the same effect and it didn't matter anyway, because Maul found them anyhow.

     
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    He is only out of sight out of mind for one of us then, because as I have stated, Obi-Wan's character hinges on how Qui-Gon shaped him, so developing Qui-Gon actually does contribute to Obi-Wan's overall character because he essentially absorb's Qui-Gon's development at the end of the film.

    Also it is silly to think the Naboo should have been left to themselves. They are merely a royal enturage and volenteer security force. You can't tell me they wouldn't feel better with one of the Jedi around. Just because Maul found them in the end doesn't mean they should just give up trying to protect the Naboo in the first place does it?
     
  7. Lurking_Around

    Lurking_Around Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    Mindtricks don't work on me, only more screen time for Obi!

    Best quote ever!!! Goes to my sig, that one!

    [face_mischief]

    ...so developing Qui-Gon actually does contribute to Obi-Wan's overall character because he essentially absorb's Qui-Gon's development at the end of the film.

    See, you're making our points for us. You yourself are stating that it's all Qui Gon, and nothing for Kenobi. Sorry, but that's not good character development. What next, Anya is good because her development hinges around Xander??? Troi is good because her character's development hinges around stating the obvious ("You are sad" said to someone with an obvious sad face? Wow, great psychic powers! [face_plain]). Sorry, but I can't understand the argument. (ignore the refrences to characters in other shows if you don't understand ;))

    You can't tell me they wouldn't feel better with one of the Jedi around.

    Exactly! And who would they feel better with? A Jedi Master who could advise them, or some two bit Padawan who should been assigned the errand of picking up spare parts? Which one would command more respect? Which one would have the wisdon to advise figures like the queen? Why should the Master waste himself on an errand fit for a Padawan?

    [face_mischief]
     
  8. DarthBane93

    DarthBane93 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 1999
    "That's your opinion.

    IMO, Jar-Jar was ONE of many lame and stupid characters/plot devices that helped to sink TPM...Qui-Gon was another one."


    Thats your opinion. Funny how that works.
     
  9. DarthBane93

    DarthBane93 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 1999
    "Sorry, but that's not good character development."

    Actually it is. Having Obi not really want to train and believe in Anakin creates symmetery with what we know about him in the OT. Not only does that create, and has created tension between the two in AOTC and in EpIII (better than a stupid love triangle idea that was rumored to be true before TPM came out...whew), but it coincides with what Obi thinks about Vader in the OT.

    Obi didnt really seem to think Vader was really redeemable. I dont think Yoda seemed sympathetic to Vader or still didnt believe in him either. Only Luke did. Obi even wants Luke to kill Vader and that is it.

    "I cant kill my own father." - Luke
    "Then the Emperor has already won" - Obi
    This is said in ROTJ

    This conversation implies that Obi never really believed that Anakin is the chosen one, when we (the audience and Qui-Gon) do know/believe that he is. Luke didnt know about the prophecy. All he knew was that Vader was redeemable. While Obi once thought that was true (and we will see IF that happens in EpIII), he obviously gave up. Luke didnt. Qui wouldnt have either.

    But my POINT being is that having Qui Gon discover Anakin, him believing in Anakin, etc etc instead of Obi fits in with what we already know about Obi-Wan. IT creates tension between the two. And we also get to know a different character (Qui-Gon) in these movies. I am glad. To have all those Jedi and not to really get to know a differnt one well would have been a waste.

    But I do agree that more Obi and Anakin time in TPM (one or two more scenes done nicely) would have been great.
     
  10. Lurking_Around

    Lurking_Around Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    This conversation implies that Obi never really believed that Anakin is the chosen one

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh] [face_laugh]

    I seriously doubt GL already intended for Anakin to be some sort of Messiah during that time.

    But my POINT being is that having Qui Gon discover Anakin, him believing in Anakin, etc etc instead of Obi fits in with what we already know about Obi-Wan. IT creates tension between the two.

    As opposed to them being close friends who later became enemies??? Sorry, but not making them close firends takes away any tension. Why should I feel sorry for them now, Anakin is just a brat and Kenobi is some English dude who is so stiff, you'd need a surgical procedure to remove the lightsaber stuck up his @$$.

    To have all those Jedi and not to really get to know a differnt one well would have been a waste.

    I'm not one of those who say that Qui Gobn ought to be deleted outright. Let hium exist, but give adequate character development for Kenobi too. And remember continuity, for that conversation wasn't talking about some chosen concept that hasn't been thought of yet, it was about Kenobi remembering that he and Anakin were good friends, and how he already had some sort of sdmiration for Luke's father right when they first knew each other. TPM completely disregarded all this. Kenobi thought Anakin was a pathetic lifeform and didn't want him trained. The line "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda" has now lost significance (especially considering the fact that Yoda's own Padawan, Dooku, ended up with the dark side to! [face_plain] Wow!).
     
  11. Darth Sin

    Darth Sin Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 14, 1999
    I also can make my arguments that there may should not have been a Qui-Gon, and that all that he did should have been what Obi-Wan should have done for the most part. But for me, I really liked Qui-Gon and so I think he was a refreshing change for the beginning of the saga.

    The only thing that I wish had been different was Qui-Gon's dying words. I wish he had never said to Obi-Wan that he must train him. But rather that Obi-Wan would have decided that this is something he wanted to do and could because Qui-Gon wanted to train Anakin, so he decides to take it upon himself.

    The only minute thing that I wish were different was Obi-Wan and Anakin's meeting one another. I wish Obi-Wan had been around Anakin with Qui-Gon, and that it was he that initiated the Midichlorian test because he sensed and observed that Anakin may have Jedi abilities.

    Darth Sin! :cool:
     
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I prefer Qui-Gon telling him to train Anakin because it gives Obi-Wan an out for responsibility.

    One that he chooses not to take.
     
  13. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    >>>(especially considering the fact that Yoda's own Padawan, Dooku, ended up with the dark side to! Wow!).

    I keep seeing this. Where did this idea come from? Is it just where Yoda calls him "padawan" when they're fighting? Because he calls the younglings "padawan" too, so that doesn't mean he was Yoda's one-on-one apprentice.

    :confused:
     
  14. stone_jedi

    stone_jedi Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 17, 2001
    ^^^^ I think it's another one of those implied things. Take it as you will. ;)

     
  15. DarthBane93

    DarthBane93 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Lurking_Around:

    "As opposed to them being close friends who later became enemies??? Sorry, but not making them close firends takes away any tension. Why should I feel sorry for them now..."


    1. That may be yours and other peoples views on it. Thats your problem.

    2. They are close friends in AOTC. While I agree I would prefer it not so implied, GL wanted it this way.

    3. And if what you say is true, that they are not close friends...then obviously there is a tension between them. Thus, Obi doesnt like Anakin and Anakin doesnt like Obi. Hmmm...tension would exist there.
     
  16. Lurking_Around

    Lurking_Around Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 26, 2002
    The only thing that I wish had been different was Qui-Gon's dying words. I wish he had never said to Obi-Wan that he must train him. But rather that Obi-Wan would have decided that this is something he wanted to do and could because Qui-Gon wanted to train Anakin, so he decides to take it upon himself.

    Now that is a good argument in favour of Qui Gon. If that had happened, it doesn't realy diminish Kenobi's character. At the very least, he does at least one independant act, free of Qui Gon influence. Alas...

    3. And if what you say is true, that they are not close friends...then obviously there is a tension between them. Thus, Obi doesnt like Anakin and Anakin doesnt like Obi. Hmmm...tension would exist there.

    My emphasis there. There see, that's why I don't like it! There would be more tragedy if they had been best friends, and it would also made more sense for the continuity as per the dialogue in ROTJ. Like I said, why should I feel pity now, in Episode 3 I'll probably cheer Obi Wan as he pushes the little brat into whatever that caused Anakin to be Vader. Good riddance to a lousy Padawan, and a mass murderer, and he'd probably be a bad father too! [face_mischief]

    As for the tension you mention...it's tension, but the tension between friends who later became enemies would be far greater. As it is, now I won't feel anything when Vader in turn whacked Kenobi in ANH. Yeah, get him Anakin, he called you a pathetic lifeform! Take that, stiff English dude! See what I mean? Thank goodness I have Oakes' rewrite, and I can pretend that was TPM. *shrug*

    So hey, the way I see it, you're making my point for me. I'm not saying my opinion is the gospel truth, but it's just my opinion.

    :D
     
  17. DarthBane93

    DarthBane93 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Sigh.

    This is what I wrote earlier and you quoted me on this. Notice my bolding now as a point I am making.

    "3. And if what you say is true, that they are not close friends...then obviously there is a tension between them. Thus, Obi doesnt like Anakin and Anakin doesnt like Obi. Hmmm...tension would exist there."

    I was just responding to your previous post about them not being close friends. My point is, is that they ARE close friends. Sure its implied, and I dont like that either, but its there and we have to deal with it. They are even closer than friends. Its implied in AOTC that they have a father/son kind of relationship after 10 yrs btwn TPM and AOTC.

    So when you quoted me earlier, I was just saying if YOU think they are NOT close friends...tension would still exist.
     
  18. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    Obi-Wan wasn't reckess in TPM, he was reckless when Yoda was teaching him. This happened before TPM.

    In TPM, Obi-Wan decides to train Anakin against Yoda's wishes.

    In AOTC it would seem that they have a good friendship, albeit strained by Anakin's impatients. Anakin talks about how unfair Obi-Wan is one second, and then compares him to Master Yoda and Mace Windu the next. It's obvious they started out with a great friendship, and lately things have strained that.

    Obi-Wan did convince the council to train Anakin. When Qui-Gon tried, he failed to convince them.
     
  19. DarthBane93

    DarthBane93 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Gomer:

    I pretty much agree with you in what you are saying about Obi being reckless when training with Yoda. However, I do see some of it residing in him during TPM. Thats how he "lost" to Maul initially because he wasnt calm and at peace. As people say, there may have been hints of the darkside there. He overcame it and then defeated Maul. After that, seems like he became a whole new person...the one we see in AOTC. You can really tell the difference btwn Obi in TPM and Obi in AOTC. And it aint just the Mullet or the beard!
     
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    I agree about his being unbalanced. Jedi don't halve people as a rule, because they feel it is uncivilized butchery. There is no doubt Obi-Wan lost it at the end there.

    But Obi-Wan was reminding Yoda about when he first taught him.
     
  21. Jeff 42

    Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 14, 1998
    If you think Obi-Wan was "unbalanced" at the moment that he killed Maul, you obviously misunderstood both the post you were replying to and the movie itself.
     
  22. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    Obviously.
     
  23. Jeff 42

    Jeff 42 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 14, 1998
  24. Go-Mer-Tonic

    Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 22, 1999
    That's right.
     
  25. ferelwookie

    ferelwookie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2001
    Uh-huh.










    Figured I'd chime in with an empty post also! :D
     
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