Qui-Gon ruined TPM!

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by hew, Sep 7, 2002.

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  1. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    In order to make amends for the spoiling, I'll not debate your points...for now!

    ;)


    Sorry, I always get so guilty when I accidently spoil people :p :( [face_laugh]

    EDIT: Hey, I even get top page! Woohoo...I mean, yippie!

    :p
  2. JenX Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 3
    Ahh, BtVS talk! Why didn't you call me sooner?

    I don't think season 5 set up Anya's storyline in season 6 at all. Season 6 in and of itself was enough to show the lack of "connectedness" with the rest of the Scooby Gang. Heck, Season 4 did that too.

    And, what kind of bizarre retconning made Anya a fish out of water in the first place? In both "The Wish" and "Doppelgangland" Anya was very familiar with the world of humans and could convincingly fake being a human (heck, why shouldn't she? She's been interacting with them for a millenium!). But suddenly Mutant Enemy (the people who make BtVS) needed a blunt comedy gal to replace Cordelia and *boom* Anya becomes Miss Dumb America.


    ...oh yeah, Qui-Gon. Err...would have prefered to have Obi-Wan discover Anakin and train him on his own accord without any death wishes from his master.
  3. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    But suddenly Mutant Enemy (the people who make BtVS) needed a blunt comedy gal to replace Cordelia and *boom* Anya becomes Miss Dumb America.

    Are you stealing thoughts from my mind??? [face_laugh] Exactly! I agree 100%! Oh, and don't forget Spike replacing Riley (and, to a certain extend, Angel). At least Spike was invlolved with the plot, even if he was rendered as nothing more than a vamp obsessed with ####### the Slayer (and hey, the Spike crossover episode kicked @$$)

    OK, to bring back on topic....

    Anyway, Obi Wan is in a similar situation in TPM- he isn't ready to be out on his own, training his own padawan, but he's thrown in at the deep end at the end of the film, and because he thinks he's good enough, he takes on something he's clearly (to me, anyway) not ready for.

    And doesn't that struck you as odd? Why did conservative, stiff Obi Wan sudddenly have a change of heart? If he had been asked to go to Mos Espa (or was it Eisley? Sorry, forgot name) he would have gained confidence, befriended Anakin and gained a wee bit of wisdom. Not to mention practicing some Jedi skills. This could have been more natural factors that made him suddenly feel that he could train Anakin.

    And if he was the one who strongly believed it was his destiny to train Anakin, the he would have championed that cause (without it being all just about doing it for Qui Gon).

    Sorry, but the sudden 180 degrees turn for Obi Wan at the end of the movie just wasn't natural, IMHO.

    :D
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    It's called character development. The whole film he is questioning his Master's apparent minority view, but at the end, he understands what he is talking about.

    In the end, he did champion that cause.
  5. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    It's called character development. The whole film he is questioning his Master's apparent minority view, but at the end, he understands what he is talking about.


    It isn't called character development. It's called plot device. Obi-Wan wasn't a character in TPM, he was a plot device. He had to be there because Lucas already established in the OT that he'd trained Anakin, but he didn't give him anything to do until the point where he'd have to train Anakin. Character development is seeing the character develop an understanding(or misunderstanding) of something. Or it's being allowed to see how the character developed the understanding he has now through character revelation. Obi-Wan got none of that. We didn't see Obi-Wan develop any understanding or come to any conclusions or even get an inkling as to why, when he obviously respected and cared a great deal for his master, he disagreed with on various aspects. He just went from one to the other.

    As Lurking said, for all the good he did, not only to the plot of the story but to developing the character, he may as well not even have been there until the end of the film.
  6. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    So if Obi-Wan isn't the main character, he should even be there?

    We do see Obi-Wan understanding where Qui-Gon is coming from. He even apologises to Qui-Gon, who then tells him he is a much wiser Jedi than he is.

    If you ignore Obi-Wan's presense in the film until the final duel, then sure he doesn't get any development.
  7. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    "Anakin was a good friend. When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    Obi is going to blame himself regardless. He did train Anakin after all. He still did took it upon himself to train Anakin did he not? The reasons are just explained now. Isnt that the point of the PT? The problem with many people is that they have this pre-visulaized concept of the PT, and since its not GL's vision, they are disappointed.

    And about being Anakin's story and having the OT central around Luke & co. is again an unfair comparison. Anakin/Vader was the villian. Of course the good guys (Luke) is going to be focused in on them. Now Anakin is a good guy. Since its his story...we need some more stuff on him even more than Obi.



  8. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    The problem with many people is that they have this pre-visulaized concept of the PT, and since its not GL's vision, they are disappointed.

    Of course people have a previsualized (or better put it, preconceptions) of the PT. It's a prequel. Where do we get our assumptions? From the OT movies themselves. I'm not some EU nut who wants to see Thrawn or Mara Jade or one of those little critters created by Zahn whom I can't spell [face_laugh] (hey, I like his books, but Zahn's fondness for creatures with weird names is annoying). It's called having something called continuity.

    You can go on with saying he's infallible if you want, the rest of us need only to point to his movies to illustrate the continuity errors. Not anything else. but the movies. His 'vision' (which steadily becomes 'revision' what with the Ultra Edition coming along...let's hope he uses that to fix the errors rather than adding Jar Jar to the OT).

    If I make illustrate further: if you do a Batman: Year One storyline based on the Tim Burton movie, then the following things must happen:

    1--Bruce's parents get killed

    2--The killer is Jack Napier, who then becomes the Joker.

    These are all preconceptions, but they derive from the source they are based on: the Burton movie (by contrast, if you do it based on the comics, different preconceptions would take place). Same with the PT: we have preconceptions, derived from the OT. I make no apologies for wanting a sense of continuity. As it is, the PT have as much continuity problems as the EU (oh no, I'm a EU lover who dares to criticise the EU, blashphemy!!! [face_plain] Sigh...why do people take it personally, like it's a religion or something?)

    We do see Obi-Wan understanding where Qui-Gon is coming from. He even apologises to Qui-Gon, who then tells him he is a much wiser Jedi than he is.

    Nope, we don't see why he suddenly takes a complete 180 degrees turn. Why? One minute he acts like he's Yoda's incarnate or something, next minute he apologizes for no reason. Did Anakin suddenly display his talents before Kenobi? Nope. Was Qui Gon displaying wisdom during the time of apology? Nope, for if I remembered correctly during taht scene tehy were following onto the Queen's scheme, not Qui Gon's or Ani's. So it's not character development, it's just an inexplicable turn which isn't explained nor illustrated on screen. Though it's nothing compared to Obi Wan suddenly wanting to train Anakin just because he Qui Gon wished it. Not because "I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda".

    Again, that dialogue comes from Lucas' own "vision", nowhere else.

    Hmmmm?

    [face_mischief]
  9. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Assumptions by their very definition are things you made up to "fill in the blanks" of what the OT -DIDN'T- tell you.

    They are meant to be placeholders for your comprehension until real facts can be subbed in.

    The prequels are trying to do that for us, but there are many who have mistaken their assumptions for how it really went down in the prequel era, and now they act like the way it actually happened is wrong.

    Really, it is your assumptions that are wrong.
  10. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    What the OT didn't tell me??? Haven't you read what I posted? All my assumptions are derived from the movie. From quotes. There was an actual quote about being good friends, I didn't drew that oput of thin air. There was an actual quote about Kenobi playing a role in discovering Anakin, knowing him as someone strong with the Force, and saying he thought he could train Anakin just as well as Yoda (nothing about "because I wanted to fulfill a death wish").

    If my assumtions are wrong, the blame falls squarely on it's source: Lucas' "vision" (or rather, "revision" once the Ultra Edition comes).

    I don't mind a few twists here and there. For example, Qui Gon as Kenobi's master I didn't mind, I thought the part about Yoda also being Kenobi's Master doesn't really contradict continuity. Even the Chosen One bit I could tolerate, despite no mention of it in the OT (see? If there's no mention, I made no assumption. It's because of a mention that I have assumptions. Again not from EU, so I don't suddenly expect Owen to be Kenobi's brother. It's all drived from the movie themselves)

    :D
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    There was no such line. Kenobi talked about when he first knew Anakin, he was surprised at how strong he was with the Force.

    You assumed he "discovered" him, but really, Qui-Gon did.

    When it comes to saying he took it upon himself to train the boy with no mention of his promise to Qui-Gon, well that's what he did, but also Qui-Gon had him make the promise. The point of what Kenobi says at the end of the saga has to do with his choice to take the blame for his own actions. Blaming Qui-Gon would have just been an immature dodge in his mind.

    Lucas does this to contrast with Anakin, who always finds someone else to blame for his own actions.

    If they don't talk about the existance or lack of the chosen one prophesy, then it isn't contradicting that to say it exists. By the classic trilogy, this will all have been spelled out to the point where it would be redundant for the audience to go over it again.

    And, no, the assumptions you made are your own creations, not Lucas' fault.
  12. ST-TPM-ASF-TNE Moderator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 27, 2001
    star 6
    I could never understand why some fans thought kenobi discovered Anakin. There was nothing in ANH top indicate it. Obi-Wan saying when he first knew Anakin doesn't provide any evidence Kenobi discovered him.

    I could never get where some people got this idea from.

    Oh well :D
  13. Lurking_Around Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2002
    star 6
    I could never understand why some fans thought kenobi discovered Anakin. There was nothing in ANH top indicate it. Obi-Wan saying when he first knew Anakin doesn't provide any evidence Kenobi discovered him.

    Not ANH. ROTJ, actually. And there was a line there, Go-Mer. But now, was Kenobi impressed when he first knew Anakin? Should he be? Was he witness to all the great stuff Anakin did in TPM (and are they great?)? He certainly wasn't impressed enough into backing Qui Gon to train the boy, now was he?

    If they don't talk about the existance or lack of the chosen one prophesy, then it isn't contradicting that to say it exists. By the classic trilogy, this will all have been spelled out to the point where it would be redundant for the audience to go over it again.

    Like I said, no mention = I have no assumptions. Then again, with the whole prophecy thing being such a big deal in the PT, why wasn't it mentioned at all in the OT? Even in passing? Like I said, "revision".

    And, no, the assumptions you made are your own creations, not Lucas' fault.

    Riiiight, I created those lines myself. Lucas stole them from me!

    [face_laugh]

    [face_plain]
  14. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I could understand your crying revisionism if this didn't fit perfectly with what happes in the classic trilogy.

    Your assumption was that because they didn't mention a chosen one prophecy, there wasn't one. That assumption was wrong.

    Kenobi first met Anakin in TPM, and while he didn't see things first hand, he heard that the boy won the pod race, and single handedly saved the day at the battle of Naboo. You say he wasn't impressed enough to want to train the boy, but at the end, doesn't he vow to train him and tell Yoda he will do it without the council's blessing if he must? He seemed pretty passionate about it to me.

    Lucas created the lines in the classic trilogy, you added the parts about there not ever being a prophecy and how Kenobi "discovered" Anakin. There is no mention at all in the classic trilogy about either assumption.

    Don't get me wrong, you made good assumptions, but now that you know they are wrong, the intelligent thing to do is to correct what you thought you knew, with what you actually know now (after seeing the prequels).
  15. EruIluvatar Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2002
    I just want to mention something really, really simple, here. It's very true that Qui-Gon could have been replaced and such and no, he's not necessary at all - but niether was Panaka.
    The point is just that Qui-Gon, setting aside father/son relationships, was the BEGINNING. He was where Obi-Wan came from, and where Anakin came from. It's not that he can't be replaced, but it gives Obi-Wan a starting place, a home.
    And, well, honor is a strong theme in knight stories. Just look at samurai epics. The oath is a powerful and important theme. ANY Jedi would follow through with his master's dying wish. ANY Jedi. And he wouldn't see it as a burden. A REAL Jedi would take it upon himself with zeal. And it DOESN'T detract from the tragedy of Obi-Wan. He was sort of sucked into everything. In truth, Obi-Wan is the most tragic character in the trilogy.

    Think of Oedipus. He didn't CHOOSE to be sent off from his family. Obi-Wan didn't CHOOSE to be honor-bound to his master. It doesn't detract from the story of Oedipus that it's not his fault. It doesn't make it any less tragic or poignant that what happened wasn't his fault.

    In a way, Qui-Gon is the thing that makes Obi-Wan THE most noble character in the story because he honor-binds himself to Qui-Gon (Rashly, I might add) and spends the REST OF HIS LIFE making up for his mistakes. In truth, the Galactic Civil war is almost all his fault. And he knew it. He knew it in his heart.

    The truth is, Qui-Gon wasn't necessary, but he adds so many extra layers to Obi-Wan's character, you just have to see them.
  16. Krash RSA Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2000
    star 5
    Qui-Gon brings something to the story that Obi-Wan couldn't...a sibling rivalry between Obi-Wan and Anakin.

    As Qui-Gon's apprentice, Obi-Wan looks at Qui-Gon as a "father-figure" A relationship explored very well in the "Jedi Apprentice" series of books. There is a bond between "master" an "apprentice", similar to "father" and "son." With the intorduction of Anakin, and Qui-Gon's immediate interest in the training of the boy, Obi-Wan is noticably resentful of Qui-Gon's request to take Anakin as an apprentice.

    On the other side, Anakin never knew a father; so when Qui-Gon made it his goal to have Anakin trained as a jedi, he essentially was adopting the boy. Immediatly taking a fathliek role with Anakin.

    When Qui-Gon dies, he asks Obi-Wan to raise Anakin as a jedi; asking the "older borther" to raise his sibling. Among other things, this "father-figure" role makes Qui-Gon a vital character in TPM.
  17. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>If I make illustrate further: if you do a Batman: Year One storyline based on the Tim Burton movie, then the following things must happen:

    1--Bruce's parents get killed

    2--The killer is Jack Napier, who then becomes the Joker.


    Not necessarily. Points of view are important.

    We "know" alrady that Jack Napier killed Bruce's parents. However, we only know that from Bruce Wayne's recollections. So the things that actually must happen are

    1--Bruce sees his parents get killed

    2--He believes the killer is Jack Napier, who then becomes the Joker.

    (nb- I haven't read a great deal of the Batman canon, so I might be incorrect about the details, but my point's the same.)
  18. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    QUI-GON OWN YOU BASHERS SO YOU BETTER SHUT YO MOUTHS BEFORE I NEED TO SLAP 'EM SHUT YO!!!!!

    OK, now you know. :)

    Mesa all better now.
  19. ferelwookie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 4
  20. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    [worries about ferelwookie]
  21. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    First of all, Qui-Gon is one of my most favorite characters in the saga.

    Now why was he included? I know a lot of people complain that his character rendered Obi-Wan useless in Episode I, but I disagree. I think Qui-Gon was added so we could see what the model master/padawan relationship looked like. Personally, I really like the contrast between Qui-Gon/Obi-Wan and Episode II's Obi-Wan/Anakin, and I don't think the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship would have been as compelling if we didn't know what that relationship was supposed to be like.
  22. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    The point of what Kenobi says at the end of the saga has to do with his choice to take the blame for his own actions. Blaming Qui-Gon would have just been an immature dodge in his mind.

    Excellent point!
  23. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    It doesn't detract from the story of Oedipus that it's not his fault. It doesn't make it any less tragic or poignant that what happened wasn't his fault.

    You really missed the point of that story. ;) The only thing not Oedipus' fault is what happened to him as an infant, everything else is. It's all about how he reacts, or as the case may be OVERREACTS, to the situations put in front of him(such as the situation which led to his unknowingly killing his own father). Of course it's his fault, it wouldn't be a tragedy if it wasn't.

    In truth, the Galactic Civil war is almost all his fault. And he knew it. He knew it in his heart.


    Its his fault that Yoda decided to bring the Clones, which could only have had nefarious beginnings, with him to Geonosis? It's his fault that Mace decided "gee 200 hundred Jedi'll be plenty to take care of this problem"? It's not his fault they didn't let him take his chances, sure he most likely would have died, but he was doing everything he was trained for and devoted to. Because quite honestly, much as I love Obi-Wan, it was kind of stupid to go to Geonosis like they did. They should have planned it more and if that meant a rather gruesome death for Obi-Wan alone in the Arena so be it.

    After all Obi-Wan didn't say they were setting out *that day* to start a war, just that everything was in place to start one. He was like the Bothan spies who died to get the Death Star plans. Obi-Wan simply reported what he saw, the armies and alliances of the Confederacy, he didn't tell them to start the war RIGHT THEN over it and he certainly didn't tell Anakin and Padme to try that brainless "rescue effort" of their's. Obi-Wan discovers two massive, previously unknown armies in the space of a couple days(not to mention a few near death experiences himself)--but manages to react really amazingly calmly to the whole thing.

    We already had a background set up for Obi-Wan, a Jedi trained by Yoda--in TPM show us the Jedi, show us Yoda and we know where Obi-wan came from, that's his starting point. However, I'm not necessarily advocating completely removing Qui-Gon from the story--just simply giving Obi-Wan more to do in TPM that might actually qualify as real character develoment and revelation, like giving over the second half of the film to showing him develop once his basic relationship is established with Qui-Gon. We knew everything we needed to know about Qui-Gon by the time they reached Tatooine if his purpose was to give an extra layer to Obi-Wan's character and to show a "non-Skywalker" master/apprentice relationship, the whole rest of the film was just dedicated to pounding it in, ad nauseum. It is time that could have been used to develop Obi-Wan instead.

    Qui-Gon brings something to the story that Obi-Wan couldn't...a sibling rivalry between Obi-Wan and Anakin.


    There is no sibling rivalry between Obi-Wan and Anakin. Just because they aren't twenty five years apart doesn't mean they are siblings either. This has never even been mentioned by Lucas as an aspect of their relationship. They are a parent/offspring pairing thus his, again, pounding us over the head with Anakin saying "he's like a father to me" half a million times(which he had to do because he certainly didn't take the time to really show it in the films--something which also would have been greatly helped by greater development of the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationship in TPM).

    Obi-Wan and Anakin are 16 years apart, even today there are people who are parents at that age and it was certainly common in the not so distant past. Obi-Wan was a grown man, young, but still a mature young man and Anakin a little boy of 9 when they got together. This is more than enough for a parental-type relationship. Anakin is rebelling against a parental-type authority figure, who isn't actually his parent(as any Jedi teacher of his would be in the same position) while at the same time being tempted by another--the little devil on his shoulder known as Palpatine.

    Besides I see no rivalry on Obi-
  24. White_Menace Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2002
    star 1
    I think Qui-Gon did have a purpose...how about this?

    Qui-Gon bounded with young Anikan and did everything he could to see that the boy be trained,meanwhile Obi-Wan showed a kind of negative outlook on the matter...."Something tells me we picked up another worthless life form"-Obi-Wan-Kenobi "The Phantom Menace"
    And through out the movie he should that he didn't really care for Anikan,then in the second movie we see that Anikan thinks Obi-Wan is holding him back and may even be jealous of his talent.I mean add it up,in the first movie it is clear Obi-Wan doesn't to much care for Anikan and in the second we see a kind of hostilty from Anikan towards Obi-Wan,I think Lucas was just giving us a idea of where Anikans darker feelings came from.
  25. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Anakin's statements that "Obi-Wan is holding me back, he's jealous," stemmed from Anakin's need to blame the Tusken Raider slaughter on anybody but himself. Padme herself saw thru this when she asked him what was wrong.

    Obi-Wan was not holding Anakin back. Anakin was not ready for his trials, his arrogance alone is proof of that as shown by the exchange in the air-speeder between he and Obi-Wan when Obi-Wan said, "If you practiced more with your lightsaber, your skills would exceed even Master Yoda's," and Anakin responds with, "I thought I already did." And Obi-Wan says, "Only in your dreams."

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