Qui-Gon should have been killed off earlier in the film

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Mace Windy, Mar 17, 2004.

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  1. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    Hi all. I've had this idea in my head regarding TPM for a long time but I'd never expressed it on these boards before.


    At lot of people have issues with Lucas' decision to include the character of Qui-Gon, citing that it detracts from the character of Obi-Wan Kenobi. While I agree with this point somewhat, I truly love the Qui-Gon character and would not have liked to loose Liam Neeson's incredible performance. If I had written the script, I think that I would have come up with a sort of a compromise:


    I believe that Qui-Gon should have been slain in his desert duel with Darth Maul. Prior to his desert duel, the film should have remained the same. Qui-Gon goes off without Kenobi onto Tatooine, discovers Anakin and brings him back to the ship, where is he attacked by Darth Maul. Anakin enters the ship and tells Obi-Wan that they are to take off no matter what. As they do, Obi-Wan is forced to watch from the cockpit as his master is slain.

    Returning to the Jedi Council, Obi-Wan now has two agendas. First: he wants to find the identity of the Sith who killed Qui-Gon and second - he pleads to have Anakin trained, as Qui-Gon would have wished. He is denied on both accounts. Anakin is dangerous and Obi-Wan has yet to face the trials. The Council debates on which master should take on Obi-Wan to continue his padawan training. Obi-Wan is vocally upset.

    Upon hearing of the Queen's sudden move, Obi-Wan jumps at the opportunity to return to Naboo, correctly making the assumption that through following Amidala, he will be led to Maul, and a chance to avenge his master's death. The Jedi Council deny him his request, citing that he must calm his head before going on any assignments, and that sending a padawan without a master would be an unprecedented move.

    "Reckless" Obi-Wan decides to make the move anyway. He falsely tells Panaka that he has been assigned to protect Amadala and returns to Naboo with the Queen and her entourage. It is there where he finally gets his chance to avenge his masters death and a one-bladed Maul is defeated.

    The Council is indebted to Obi-Wan. Not only has he confirmed that the Sith have returned, but he's destroyed their master...or maybe apprentice? Mace isn't quite sure. It is decided that through "protecting" the Queen and killing Maul that Obi-Wan has successfully completed his trial. They grant him the status of Jedi Knight, and after a bit of work, he is allowed to train Anakin, as Qui-Gon had hoped.




    Had George written The Phantom Menace in this way, it would have fleshed out the character of Obi-Wan better, and given him more motivation to have Anakin trained, as well as justifying the "reckless" comment that Yoda makes to Luke in ESB. I find it a shame that Obi-Wan, a character so predominant in the entire saga, was virtually pushed to the background in TPM and had Anakin practically dumped upon him. By the same token, I loved Qui-Gon, and feel that his warmth was a great asset to the film. With Qui-Gon dying earlier in the film, of course, we wouldn't have been treated with the fantastic 2 on 1 lightsaber battle, but, judging by Obi-Wan's importance to the rest of the saga, I think that loosing that classic duel is a sacrifice that I would have been willing to make for the betterment of the over all story of the film and the saga.




    :cool: Mace Windy,
    kiss me, I'm windy!
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  2. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    Very interesting story change, Windy; I hope people read it and put thought into it instead of giving the typical knee-jerk reaction of saying "I liked the movie the way it was."

    I agree though, while Qui-gon was a great character and Neeson gave a wonderful performance, he detracted greatly from Obi-wan. Someone who is important in the Saga was relegated to the side and never really fleshed out. He was one dimensional at best. Most people will say that Obi-wan in EpI is an "emerging character," but I don't think he should be, like Qui-gon wasn't.

    In any case, I think this is a great thread, but unfortunately it's gonna be swarmed with bickering and arguing.
  3. appleseed Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2002
    star 4
    Although I am pretty happy with the film as it is, this is actually an interesting idea. The original concept of Qui-Gon not showing up until they reached Coruscant is just as good, though. I don't if losing Qui-Gon so early would have changed the way people look at the movie though-I think most people who hate it hated it going into the theather or soon afterward. When the media turned on it, quite a few people just mindlessly fell into line and did as told.

    I don't think your idea would have made the movie any better or worse-just different. I personally feel Obi-Wan got a good amount of screen time. An emerging character is like Bail in AOTC or Mace in TPM, characters who have just small parts. Obi-Wan was in TPM quite a bit, although he did drop out just a bit when they were on Tatooine.
  4. Darth_Fless Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 9, 2003
    star 1
    I like the movie the way it is! (sarcasm)

    I agree with the previous post for the most part.

    Anyway, interesting idea - would have added some additional emotion to the ordeal.

    One question:
    Would Obi-wan still have wanted to train "another pathetic life-form"? Nothing before the desert duel was communicated to Obi-wan about QGJ wanting the boy trained, or would have compelled Obi-wan to want the boy trained himself.
  5. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Wow! This is a great idea! It would have been interesting to see how things would have played out... I still enjoy the film as it is, but this is a very intriguing idea!

  6. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    Nice read Windy. Would you have used Qui-gon in the other prequels. Would you have had Obi-wan be the one that first has the ability to retain his identity and not Qui-gon. Just a question.

    Jag29

  7. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    "Would you have used Qui-gon in the other prequels. Would you have had Obi-wan be the one that first has the ability to retain his identity and not Qui-gon."

    I don't know. I guess my answer to that would depend on how things play out in Episode III.




    :) Mace Windy,
    kiss me, I'm windy!
  8. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    Based on your changes would you have had Yoda hear him in ATOC.

    Jag29
  9. JediWithoutACause Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 1

    for the most part, i agree with you that obi's character needs some beefing up. but i dont think cutting out QGJ's scenes after tatooine is the solution. the problem with your vision is that obi-wan's character, while gaining some much need characterization, is changed quite a bit. if obi actually harbors feelings of revenge(at least until the queen returns to naboo) and actually plots to get it(lying to capt panaka!?!?) he doesnt appear to be just reckless, he appears to be heading down the dark path. which may condone anakin's own dark tendencies in the next movie. if obi lied & plotted to murder maul, is anakin's emotional slaughter any worse?

  10. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    Hmmm, that would have been a clever twist -- earlier death ala ANH Obi-wan (which had allowed Luke to grow more as a character on this own... same for Obi-wan in TPM, had they followed your idea.)
  11. royalguard96 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 5
    I like your thinking here. But having Qui-Gon die midway through the film I think, would have paralleled the death in ANH too closely, in my opinion.

    Plus, it takes away from the best saber fight to date, and Obi-Wan isn't able to specifically carry out Qui-Gon's last dying wish, which is to train Anakin.

    OMG someone call the Phantom Editor!!!1111 8-}
  12. JK33 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2003
    star 4
    I like the "compromise." I think Liam Neeson is an incredible actor that brought a lot to that film, but Obi-Wan is, and always has been, my favorite character. Ewan could have carried this film on his own from that point forward.

    But somebody makes a good point: the three-way lightsaber duel is the best to date thus far.
  13. brook_33 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 30, 2003
    star 4
    i sense an "alternate second half"
  14. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    While this is an original idea, I must speak in opposition to it. The way you speak of Anakin coming into the guidance of Obi-Wan seems kind of forced, as more a less here is this kid and now I have to train him because I think Qui-Gon wanted him trained, not because he made me promise to do so. This would lessen the burden of Obi-Wan's plight throughout the remainder of the PT in the sense that he couldn't just drop this kid as his padawan because he promised his slain master he would do so. On top of that, it would seem hard for Obi-Wan to just assume Qui-Gon wanted Anakin trained without him actually telling Obi-Wan, not making it as meaningful as it was originally deplicted in TPM in the sense of his dying wish.

    I'm not totally in agreement with the fact that Obi-Wan seems to have a vengeful, reckless nature about him in this re-write. Throughout the time we know Obi-Wan in the Star Wars saga, he always has this prevailing calmness and maturity about him, even as a padawan. I think this is more so a characteristic of the man, rather than something he has learned over the years.
  15. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    "I'm not totally in agreement with the fact that Obi-Wan seems to have a vengeful, reckless nature about him in this re-write."

    After Qui-Gon was killed in the film, one cannot argue that Obi-Wan was fighting recklessly with vengence until the moment that he sliced Darth Maul in two. I don't think that it would be that much of a stretch to take those emotions and to explore and expand upon them a bit.





    :cool: Mace Windy,
    kiss me, I'm windy!
  16. Spike2002 Former FF-UK RSA and Arena Manager

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2002
    star 6
    That would probably have been better than the way the movie played out. As you said, it would have shown Obi-Wan to be reckless as he said, "So was I if you remember?" in ESB.
  17. Glorian-Eversea Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2002
    star 2
    Windy, Your idea is brilliant. As it is, TPM is all about Qui Gon's decisions, Qui Gon's faith, Qui GOn's philosophy.

    Then Qui Gon Dies and so does any of TPM relevance.
    You suggestion focuses the story on Obi Wan. I love it.
    In terms of TPM quick fixes: this is now one of my top choices (just beneath "Make Anakin older" and "Disimagine Jar Jar")

    Elsewhere:
    "When the media turned on it, quite a few people just mindlessly fell into line and did as told."

    Excuse me. Who mindlessly fell in line? Isn't it possible their reactions were legitimate.

    Glorian
  18. All_Powerful_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2003
    star 4
    The way you speak of Anakin coming into the guidance of Obi-Wan seems kind of forced, as more a less here is this kid and now I have to train him because I think Qui-Gon wanted him trained, not because he made me promise to do so.

    As far as forceability goes, I don't see much of a difference. The way Anakin is suddenly standing next to Obi-Wan at the end of TPM. Whether he made the promise to Qui-Gon at the very end or in the middle of the movie, it still happens in a forced manner.

    At least, if it happened in the middle of the movie, it would put more emotional weight on Obi-Wan's decision to train Anakin, which is crucial to the direction of the next 5 movies.

    I think the movie would have been regarded much better this way, personally, because Obi-Wan is just too important of a character to be a sidekick. I understand why Lucas did it (Obi-Wan's subserviant role sets the tone for Anakin's rebellious role), though.

    But, Lucas did it the way he did it and we ended up with a good lightsaber duel, so I'll live with it.
  19. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    I like your thinking here. But having Qui-Gon die midway through the film I think, would have paralleled the death in ANH too closely, in my opinion.

    Well, GL is known for making parrelel's, though.
  20. -_-_-_-_-_- Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 6
    At least, if it happened in the middle of the movie, it would put more emotional weight on Obi-Wan's decision to train Anakin, which is crucial to the direction of the next 5 movies.

    How so? In the way the story currently plays out, Obi-Wan is bound to Anakin no matter what, and simply because of a promise to his master. Without that promise, it seems more theisable that Obi-Wan could have stopped training Anakin when things got rough and would have made more sense considering he had nothing to keep him training him.

    Edit: On the subject of validating the quote Obi-Wan uses in TESB, it really isn't necessary. There is plenty of time before the events of TPM, several years in fact when Obi-Wan could have been "reckless", thus the audience doesn't necessarily have to see it to make it more believable.
  21. EmpireForever Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 2004
    star 8
    >"Reckless" Obi-Wan decides to make the move anyway. He falsely tells Panaka that he has been assigned to protect Amadala and returns to Naboo with the Queen and her entourage. It is there where he finally gets his chance to avenge his masters death and a one-bladed Maul is defeated.<

    yeah only one problem, maul kills a real jedi in the real film, while fighting a padawan at the same time. the only reason Obi-wan kills maul is the sudden rage at the death of his master, i think if his anger would have set there, it weould have been more anger less rage, and therefore he would not have had the power to defeat him. thats just my opinion, i think your idea was great though.
  22. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Glorian: I think the "mindlessly fell in line" comment is referring to the mindless sheep in the world who follow whatever is trendy. I don't believe it was aimed at anyone who posts here. Sadly there are people like that in this world. They annoy me to no end.

  23. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    While an interesting idea, Qui's death on Tatooine wouldnt have been dramatic enough to warrent it, esp when you compare it to Ben's in ANH.

    Liam Neeson made TPM great. If Qui was to die that early, they might as well have had William Shatner play Qui-Gon then.

    Now thats an interesting idea! :p
  24. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    Actually, no - Obi-Wan only kills Darth Maul when he is calm and collected - even though he's hanging from a little outcropping in the SW Abyss of Doom.

    The reason he is hanging there is b/c he was angry and not using his head, and Maul Force pushed him into the Abyss.

    I think Windy's is one of the best "edit TPM" suggestions I've ever heard.

    But I also agree that not every line from the OT needs to find a connection in the PT.

    - Obi-Wan is reckless in some ways - on Naboo, he's running from droids he could have easily destroyed, had his lightsaber not been extinguished (although that's not in the theatrical cut).

    - He almost falls to his death, as I mentioned above, by fighting Maul too recklessly.

    - In AOTC, he seems like the totally calm and wise teacher....until he jumps through a window and grabs the assassin droid....8 billion feet above ground.

    -He turns his back to Zam and pulls his saber at the last second.

    - He jump kicks Jango when his arms are entwined with a cable....attached to Jango's wrist.

    - The "I don't think so" line also springs to mind.

    It seems to me that Lucas is showing that Obi-Wan is almost unbeatable when he's calm and collected - when he is reckless, he gets in trouble.

    I assume this is supposed to be setting us up for The Duel in Episode III - and it's how Obi-wan will defeat Anakin (speculation, folks).

    Anyway, I think it's an interesting idea Windy, but I think it's also neat to see how a "proper" Padawan should behave. Although that point was made in the first 1/2 regardless...

    I suppose Qui-Gon's usefulness is pretty much over by the time they are ready to leave Tatooine.

    Hmm...meditate on this I will.
  25. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    "Qui's death on Tatooine wouldnt have been dramatic enough to warrent it"

    How can you say that having Qui-Gon die in the desert would not have been a dramatic death?

    Imagine the drama and tension as Obi-Wan must tell Ric to take the ship off. He lookis out the window hoping that his mater will prevail, when, in fact, he is stabbed through the gut and falls. It mirrors the scene near the end of the duel, actually. In both cases, Obi-Wan is seperated from his master and can only be a spectator as he is slain. In both cases he is tortured by the fact that his master is dying and there is nothing that he can do to help him.





    :cool: Mace Windy,
    too windy for words!
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