Qui-Gon should have been killed off earlier in the film

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Mace Windy, Mar 17, 2004.

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  1. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    If not more dramatic as Obi-wan is not only separated from his master, but leaving; the feeling of abandoning Qui-gon and feeling he should have stayed to help would gnaw at him, making him a more tortured character. Brilliant, Windy!
  2. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    "How can you say that having Qui-Gon die in the desert would not have been a dramatic death?"

    Uh, they wouldnt have been together long enough in the movie for me to feel anything.

    Its better the way it happened.
  3. JediMasterGuff Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 5
    I'm not too sure. After disregarding the Council's orders, do you really think the Council would be happy to make Obi-Wan a Knight, even after killing a Sith? Obi-Wan is supposed to be a very by-the-book Jedi, but showing this act of rebellion would make Obi-Wan seem very much like Anakin (reckless, arragant, unpredictable, out for revenge) which obviously isn't what we want. In order to emphasise how arrogant and unstable Anakin is, we need a clear good-guy character to show the audience what a Jedi should be like (Obi-Wan), compared to what a Jedi shouldn't be like (Anakin).

    Get me?
  4. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    I love Qui-Gon and wasn't cool with the initial idea when I read the thread title, Windy, but I do like the way you played it out--it makes the transition to the OT more smooth. :)
  5. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 4
    While I am a huge fan of TPM. I have to say that that is one of the few good ideas as far as re-doing the film goes.

    Not saying that is nessessarily better than the way it played out. Just that if it HAD been like that, that would have been great as well.

    One thing though aboutthe Obi-WAn being reckless topic, that everyone seems to never get staright.

    In ESB when Obi-Wan says "so was I if you remember" refering to his recklessness, he was refering to his equivelent stage of training to what Luke was at at the time, which is just getting ready to become a padawan. And as we know know, tradiationally in the republic, jedi are brought in at a very young age. So my thinking is that when Obi-Wan says he was once reckless in ESB, he is most likely refering to his days when he was prolly 10 years old or even younger when he was JUST starting out. By the time TPM comes around, he is well into his training and is about ready to become a full fledged jedi. So the arument that "obi-Wan wasn't reckless enough in TPM because he said he was in ESB" is null and void. Just needed to clear that up.
  6. Obi_Frans Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2003
    star 4
    While this is definitely a interesting edit of the movie, i feel the GuiGon/ObiWan/Anakin-triangle is one of the most interesting relationships Star Wars has to offer.

    the Fact that GuiGon puts ObiWan aside for a "boy he just met"(even if GuiGon says ObiWan is ready for the trials) i think really plays a big part in the relationship between Obi/Anakin, ObiWan doesn't like him and Anakin knows this("i don't wanna be a problem sir") which already causes a rift between them.

    Plus via the Jedi Council scenes we really see how different the current ObiWan is from his Master, we have to see through Anakins eyes he is more/wants to be/tries to be like GuiGon instead of ObiWan.

    I REALLY hope Anakin will somehow/someway mention GuiGon to ObiWan in Episode III(wether to anger him - "he chose me over you", turn him - "GuiGon would've done this", confuse him - "i hear GuiGon talk when i get angry" etc etc.) because Episode I gave him all this attention.

    GuiGon in Clones was cool and reminding ("i'll watch over him, you have my word") but he's too important(at least in the way TPM put him in the story) not to come up again.
  7. Billy_Dee_Binks Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 4
    //Oh yeah, a one-bladed Darth Maul would have been more exciting.//sarcasm

    I say, if you had Qui-Gon killed off that early in the film people would act the same as they do about Obi Wan. Not enough of the character was shown. It´s just another "what if...?" story- not meant negatively.
  8. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    "if you had Qui-Gon killed off that early in the film people would act the same as they do about Obi Wan. Not enough of the character was shown. It´s just another "what if...?" story- not meant negatively."


    Realistically speaking, had Qui-Gon died in the desert it would not have been "that early" on in the film. Prior to the desert duel, Qui-Gon has a great deal of screentime and is the character that we had gotten to know best. Had he died in the desert, his character would have been more than fleshed out.

    So, in order to accept or enjoy my idea, you have to ask yourself what would I rather have seen: a film where Qui-Gon was fleshed-out at the expense of Obi-Wan's character, or a film in which Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were essentially fleshed out to the same degree. Since Obi-Wan survives the film, I'd much rather see a film where he plays a dynamic role.

    People should be saying "what if...?" about the character who appears only in one chapter of the saga as opposed to the one which graces all six films.




    :) Mace Windy,
    too windy for spoilers!
  9. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    TPM is not a separate movie, it's a beginning. Obi-Wan has four episodes to play around in(not counting when he's dead). Qui-Gon only has one.
    I like it better the way it is, because the more Qui-Gon you have in TPM, the more important the character becomes. And if he shouldn't be very important, why have him in the story at all?
  10. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Exactly. And I prefer Qui-Gon in there. I think what lost me and what Lucas screwed up on is their lack of chemistry in AOTC.
  11. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    "And if he shouldn't be very important, why have him in the story at all?"

    Qui-Gon, prior to the desert duel, is extrodinarily important: He is Obi-Wan's master; he locates Jar Jar who eventually allows them the means to reach Theed, he makes the decision to land on Tatooine; he finds the choosen one; he makes a deal to free Anakin from slavery; he tests Anakin and shockinly discovers that this boy has more force potential than does Yoda. How can you say that this list is not very important?

    After the desert duel, what does Qui-Gon do? He petitions to have Ankain trained as a Jedi and then he is killed.

    In my version, the fact that he does not directly petition to the Jedi Council is the only significant (or "important") act which Qui-Gon commits which would no longer be in the film to his credit.

    The character is more than important in the early going, especially on Tatooine.





    :) Mace Windy,
    too windy for spoilers!
  12. Loco_for_Lucas Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2002
    star 5
    ie, he served his purpose leading up to the desert duel.
  13. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    Realistically speaking, had Qui-Gon died in the desert it would not have been "that early" on in the film. Prior to the desert duel, Qui-Gon has a great deal of screentime and is the character that we had gotten to know best. Had he died in the desert, his character would have been more than fleshed out.

    True--and think about how tragic it would be if Qui-Gon had told Shmi, "I will watch over him--you have my word," then had been slain in the desert a few minutes later. :_|
  14. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I agree, he is still important, but it's not enough. I would miss the interaction between Qui-Gon and the council, which is what makes his character powerful.
    The little conflict between him and Obi-Wan is also interesting. All films have a character that changes drastically. In TPM, it's Obi-Wan. With your change, the conflict disappears and so does Obi-Wan's change of character. Not good.
  15. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Mace Windy,

    I was a little concerned when I first saw the title of the thread, but when I read your first post, I was intrigued.

    I like your change. Qui-Gon's influence on Obi-Wan is evident in his lying to the council to get back to Naboo, etc. I think the training of Anakin is something that Obi-Wan should have decided to do on his own, not something that was 'forced' upon him by the council. This tension between Anakin and Obi-Wan that develops because Obi-Wan is more or less forced to take him as a padawan is not necessary in TPM.

    While I liked Liam Neeson's portrayal of Qui-Gon, having him die earlier in the film would redirect the focus onto Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship. After all, they are supposed to be good friends.

    And, as a_g said, it makes Qui-Gon's statement to Shmi that much more tragic.
  16. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    Up!

    I'd love to see some new reaction to this thread. :D



    :cool: Mace Windy,
    too windy for spoilers!
  17. Harabec Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2001
    star 4
    Your disdain of Qui-Gon has earned you a special place in hell, with all of the rapists and killers [face_plain]

    I guess I'm one of the alleged minority who not only liked Qui-Gon, but wish that he'd survived TPM and stuck around for a while longer. In particular, how he would have played into AOTC, with his former master organizing an armed opposition to the Republic, would have been intriguing.

    And something tells me that if Obi-Wan, a mere padawan, had defied the Council in such a way as you had described, they probably would not be so quick to stick him with the supposed Chosen One, whom they already acknowledged was "too old" and dangerous to begin training. It's also unlikely that they would reward him with knighthood after he'd pursued and killed a Sith for vengeance. He'd probably end up in Jedi time-out instead.
  18. Mace Windy Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 1999
    star 6
    Maybe you should have read my full post:

    "At lot of people have issues with Lucas' decision to include the character of Qui-Gon, citing that it detracts from the character of Obi-Wan Kenobi. While I agree with this point somewhat, I truly love the Qui-Gon character and would not have liked to loose Liam Neeson's incredible performance."


    The rest of your points may certainly be valid. However, the Jedi Council did stick Obi-Wan with the chosen one even though he was too old. Their actions make little sense as it is.



    :cool: Mace Windy,
    too windy for spoilers!
  19. Harabec Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2001
    star 4
    [Not appropriate.]

    While it is true that the Council did stick Obi-Wan with the Chosen One, the point of it is that he hadn't defied the Council in order to get there. They sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan back to Naboo, and for some reason Anakin tagged along. They were supposed to draw Maul out. What you proposed is that Obi-Wan go AWOL to kill a Sith for revenge. Would the Council be so quick to make the same choice with Anakin's fate after all of that? That's the part of your (otherwise interesting) proposal that just doesn't make much sense to me.

    Clearly the Council makes poor and odd decisions, but I don't think they would make one that obviously problematic.
  20. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Clearly the Council makes poor and odd decisions, but I don't think they would make one that obviously problematic.

    And perhaps they wouldn't but Obi-Wan would train him anyway.

    After all, in the existing film:

    "I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin...against the will of the council if I must."

    It's entirely possible he would go against the council to train Anakin.


  21. Harabec Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2001
    star 4
    An excellent point, I'd forgotten about that line.
  22. lazykbys_left Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2005
    star 4
    The changes sound interesting. I think it needs tweaking, though.


    First, I think it needs to be established that Qui-Gon thinks Anakin is the Chosen One and is determined to train him, and that Obi-Wan knows this. This could be done by adding a few lines after Obi-Wan's "Why do I sense we've picked up another pathetic life form?"

    Qui: It's the boy who's responsible for getting those parts.

    Obi: (pause) The blood sample you sent me. It's him, isn't it. (pause) Master, do you really believe this boy is the . . .

    Qui: The Chosen One? (smiles and nods)

    Obi: You can't be serious. The Council will never allow it. He's too old.

    Qui: He will become a Jedi, I promise you.

    Obi: But -

    Qui: Keep your doubts to yourself until you meet him. You still have much to learn, my young apprentice.

    . . . or something to that effect.


    Second, for this to work we need a really convincing reason why Darth Maul, who (in this alternative TPM) killed Jedi Master Qui-Gon in a one-on-one lightsaber duel, can be defeated by a mere padawan.

    It might be fun to have Obi-Wan dip into the dark side when fighting Maul, then be pulled back when he hears Qui-Gon's voice. He could ask Yoda about it later, and Obi-Wan - and the viewers - would be told that it's never happened before. (I'm still irked that there's no way of knowing that by just watching the films. [face_plain])


    - lazy
  23. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Second, for this to work we need a really convincing reason why Darth Maul, who (in this alternative TPM) killed Jedi Master Qui-Gon in a one-on-one lightsaber duel, can be defeated by a mere padawan.

    Well, that happened anyway in the existing film. He beat Maul because Maul was overconfident and arrogant and Obi-Wan took advantage of his distraction at the right time.
  24. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Hmm...while the idea is interesting I do not think this would make it any better for the characters. The ideas as to why have already been expressed-mainly that it would take away from the dying wish that Obi-Wan promised to fulfill and the result of it. Also, Having Qui-Gon Jinn killed that early in the movie would weaken, and cheapen, him as a character and the importance of his influence on Obi-Wan.

    We'd all be wondering what would happen "If Qui-Gon surived?" too. And a two-on-one saber duel is cooler.

    :cool:


    Ciou-See the Sig
  25. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    The ideas as to why have already been expressed-mainly that it would take away from the dying wish that Obi-Wan promised to fulfill and the result of it.

    Not really. You could just have Qui-Gon say those things as he dies aboard the Queen's ship. Maybe he's severely wounded by Maul but barely escapes only to die right after he tells Obi-Wan to train this little one.

    With some work, Windy's is a better idea.
    As for his influence,that can be revealed in later conversations between Obi-Wan and the JC when Kenobi goes against the council and ventures to Naboo. Also when he tells Yoda he'll train Anakin with or without council approval that influence is clear. Yoda even says the line: "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you."

    Jinn's influence on Kenobi would still come through even if he died earlier.
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