Qui Gon's "Cheating"

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by SlayerOfGungans, Jan 12, 2002.

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  1. SlayerOfGungans Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    I hear a lot about Qui Gon's manipulation of the chance cube as cheating, but I disagree with it. It certainly seems as though that particular cube is weighted to land on red. Watto's look of utter surprise and subsequent outburst tell of something amiss. Just my thoughts.
  2. Darth_Reign Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2001
    star 4
    That's what I thought. I think it say's something about the dice being rigged in the novel, but I'm not sure.
  3. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Find some evidence in the FILM for it landing on red, and I'll listen. The film has to explain this on its own in order to make sense to those of us who don't read novelizations. Unless the film makes it clear that Qui-Gon had to cheat to win, rather than depend on the Force to be with him, then it is not the case.
  4. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    Okay. Evidence from the film

    1) The chance cube has 5 red sides and 1 blue
    2) The chance cube can be seen clearly rolling along with the blue side facing outwards - ie if it carried on, it wouldn't land on the blue side
    3) As stated in the original post, Watto's subsequent reactions
  5. LadyAnakinSkywalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2001
    star 4
    Thanks for the information, halibut.
  6. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    Life as a free boy without his mother isn't much of an improvement, at least not if Jedi Knighthood is his goal.
  7. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Life as a free boy without his mother isn't much of an improvement, at least not if Jedi Knighthood is his goal. "


    Actually if we was to become a Jedi, life without his mother is the only option.

    Who cares even if Qui Gon had cheated? Show me the part in the Jedi code that says you can't cheat a slave owner at a dice roll in order to save a little kid.
  8. tonyl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 1
    Is the Jedi Code actually written down somewhere, in black and white? And even if it were, I don't think it'll be as specific as that, Bra.

    EDIT: I have more to say. :p

    Slayer of Gungans, you're right. Qui-Gon *didn't* cheat anybody. You've been reading too much of TJ's post. Just ignore him. Most of his posts are just sarcasm. Even if you reply with sarcasm, his worshippers will immediately take the defensive and start backfiring on you about how you take things too seriously and... Just ignore him.
  9. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    You know what I thought about the cube thing?

    I believe the die was loaded. Qui-Gon knew it. He reversed the load so it landed on the impossible side. Watto KNEW something was up because it was never supposed to land on the side that it did, which explains his temper tantrum.

    If that's the case, Qui hardly cheated if he undid a cheat.
  10. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Is the Jedi Code actually written down somewhere, in black and white? And even if it were, I don't think it'll be as specific as that, Bra. "


    Uh, yeah I know, I was engaging in hyperbole. :p

    TJ has worshippers? LOL
  11. SHB-JR Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2000
    star 4
    How dare you attack the mighty TJ !!! ;)
    LOL

    Yours SHB JR
  12. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    If the dice was loaded, then Qui-Gon using the force just evened things out a little.

    He brought balance. ;)
  13. Harabec Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2001
    star 4
    I knew it. Qui-Gon is the Chosen One, not the little horny runt Skywalker.

    It just works better.
  14. tonyl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 1
    I'm very sure that Qui-Gon's capabilities would allow him to bring balance (without having to turn to the Dark Side, of course). But, sorry guys, he's not the Chosen One. He is already one with the Force.

    You must let go now...
  15. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    So, A Jedi only uses the Force for knowledge, defence and making sure the right slaves get released?

    :confused:
  16. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    Perhaps Yoda updated the rules AFTER this little incident.
  17. halibut Ex-Mod

    Member Since:
    Aug 27, 2000
    star 8
    Anyway, he didn't use the force to change the chance cube. He was trying to swat a fly.
  18. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    He cheated from a certain point of view. He could always claim the whole "it was the will of the Force" to justify his cheating.
  19. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Forget the cheating, what about the lying and stealing?
  20. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    Would you like to elaborate on the stealing and the lying?
  21. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    As far as lying goes he lied to Anakin when he told him that he was checking his blood for infections.

    Yes.


    That's minor compared to Ben's lie to Luke. Ben telling Luke that a young Jedi named Darth Vader betrayed and murdered his father is much worse. If Qui-Gon telling Ani a little white lie about checking his blood for infections is evil then Ben lying about the true identity of Lukes father is a sure sign that Obi-Wan was a Sith Lord.

    No, I disagree. From certain point of view, Ben was telling the truth. Sadly for Qui, there is no certain point of view.

    Also, Qui lied to Watto as to how he acquired the pod racer. He did not win it in a game of chance. Flat out lie. And he lies right in front of Anakin. So Anakin learns to lie himself whereas previously he always told the truth. Like I said before, Qui is at fault for turning Anakin to the DarkSide. Filthy scumbag liar.


    And as far as stealing goes, Qui-Gon stole a power cell from Watto in either a long cut scene or in the novelization.

    Yes, but Qui also stole Nass' bongo. And he tried to steal the parts from Watto but Watto would not succumb to Qui's mind-rape. Qui's a freak'in thief. I hate the bastard.


    In my mind it didn't happen.

    In my mind, alot of stuff in TPM didn't happen. That's why I prefer TPRE. ;)
  22. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Ben lied to Luke, flat out. I don't buy the Clinton-esque "certain point of view" nonsense. Ben knew that Luke took him literally and he allowed Luke to continue believing it. It was a lie, plain and simple. Don't be fooled by Ben's clever lawyer tricks.

    So obviously there's nothing in the code about a Jedi not being able to lie.

    And Nass gave Qui Gon the bongo. All Qui Gon did was suggest that they transport them to the surface. Nass could have sent him up with an escort or something. He didn't have to give Qui Gon a bongo. Anyway, the cut waterfall scene shows why it couldn't be returned.
  23. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    LOl!

    Although he's not a villain,IMHO, he's not a true hero either. Wait...didn't I say the same thing not too long ago? :?
  24. TheJediCharles Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    I don't think Qui-Gon's use of unconventional means for the higher good means he's not a Jedi.

    It means he's a super freak Jedi that's gonna kick yo butt to da house a justice! He breaks th' rules then breaks yo uglee slave-drivin' face!
  25. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>So basicly rather than cheat a slave owner you'd prefer Qui-Gon to leave a young boy to lead a life of slavery without even his mother to guide him? This is your idea of fair play?

    Not at all- the issue in my mind is that Qui Gon used to Force to cheat a dice roll. I don't think there's anything wrong with a Jedi cheating, stealing etc. if it's for the greater good, but I think that misusing the Force like this is at the very least a step towards the dark side; Quick and easy path and all that... especially considering what Lucas has said about "the lines between good and evil becoming blurred"- Qui Gon's doing the wrong thing (using the Force to cheat/steal) for the right reason (help liberate Naboo/rescue a slave), with the end result that Anakin gets trained as a Jedi- if he hadn't been trained, then he would have just been a "tool" of the Force, like he was in Episode 1, with no taste of the power of the Dark Side.

    >>>>So obviously there's nothing in the code about a Jedi not being able to lie.

    Of course, Obi Wan wasn't a Jedi by then...

    "I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father."

    >>>>And Nass gave Qui Gon the bongo. All Qui Gon did was suggest that they transport them to the surface.

    Yes. And all it took was a little wave of the hand to distract him...
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