Qui Gon's "Cheating"

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by SlayerOfGungans, Jan 12, 2002.

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  1. TrueJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    In all seriousness, yeah, if you have the article, great I would like to see. If not, I appreciate that you already retracted your comments. I hope you realize this game of tag has been in all in the spirit of fun. :)
  2. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    I'm here!

    So what's up?

    P.S. DB93- I'm TJ_Redeemer.
  3. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
  4. SomeRandomNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Padme Bra,
    "As I have pointed out, the council did everything they could to stop Anakin being trained. Yoda made this explicitly clear. But because of Obi Wans insistence, they couldn't."
    >>>Then you incorrectly pointed it out. Yoda said that the council agreed with Obi Wan. So what's more likely, that the council didn't really agree, and Yoda was speaking for them because he caved under a threat from a newbie Jedi or that Yoda was telling he truth and the council agreed that Anakin was to be trained?

    OK- let me get your interpretation of the story straight.

    Qui Gon brought Anakin before the Jedi Council, with the opinion that Anakin should be trained. The council agreed to test him, and came to the conclusion that despite his midichlorian count, his obvious connection to
    the Force and the possibility of him being the Chosen One of the prophecy, he shouldn't be trained. Presumably (and I can't think of any reason other than the one stated- "much fear I sense in you") because there was too much of a risk of him turning to the Dark Side.
    Right so far?

    Then Qui Gon said that he'd take him on as his padawan as soon as Obi Wan completed the trials. The council didn't stop him, because they didn't have the power- the best they could do was to make him wait until he'd
    "graduated" his existing padawan. They didn't like it, but they couldn't stop him. Or at the very least, they wanted to wait until later before they dealt with the issue. (Mace Windu: "Now is not the time")
    Let me know if I've missed anything up to this point.

    Qui Gon died, and Obi Wan stepped into his shoes and said he'd take Anakin on as his padawan learner. And for no given reason, the council suddenly decided as one, offscreen, that Anakin should be trained. That the risk of him turning to the Dark Side
    had suddenly vanished, now that he was to be trained by Obi Wan (who had been promoted to the level of Jedi Knight literally SECONDS earlier.) Not by them, or by Yoda, or by some other Jedi more experienced, but by a kid trained by someone who didn't follow the Jedi Code, who still hadn't grown out his padawan haircut. And this had nothing to do with Obi Wan effectively threatening to secede from the Order and train Anakin without their permission?

    I'm pretty certain you're an intelligent guy who knows his Star Wars, and this isn't what you thought was happening- where did I lose track of your reasoning?
  5. DarthBane93 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    RandomNerd,

    Padme Bra is right, not because of his/her point of view, but because that is what happened.

    The "council" had already made up their minds and agreed that Anakin should be trained even before Yoda was talking with Obi at the end of TPM.

    "Agree with you the "council" does". That means, that the council had already discussed the matter and wanted Anakin to be trained.

    Yoda was just telling Obi of his disagreement with the council on this matter and of his concerns. Obi just insisted that Anakin would be trained no matter what and by himself. Whether the council wanted Obi to train Anakin in the first place...I have no idea.

    Obviously Obi wanted to train Anakin himself because of his promise. So when Obi talks to Yoda of this, the council had previously discussed the matter and would allow Anakin to be trained. Plain and simple.
  6. TheJediCharles Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 28, 2001
    star 3
    Those of you that voiced support in "Drop the "Jar Jar was a mythic representation of the clown/outsider figure" crap, please!" thread by saying something to the effect that "since Lucas said Jar Jar was made for kids the whole tollorance angle is officially wrong" then you individuals can't say that Qui-Gon is a cheater because Lucas never said it. Can't have it both ways, you know.

    But to the rest of you that don't support the "Lucas says thererfore you must accept it" rule, but still think Qui-Gon is a cheater, all I've got to say is just give it up. If Han can shoot first and still end up a hero then Qui-Gon can cheat and still be a great Jedi Knight... even though he didn't.
  7. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Yeah, look at Han. Does he have the right to cheat because he's not a Jedi? Hmmm....

    Qui-Gon cheated to set a slave boy free. He lied not for himself, but for others. He was never selfish, always kind. Plus, I never seen him cheating, lieing, or stealing in JA.

    The Bible or anything like it never existed in SW, so you can just forget about saying he broke the law. As for the Jedi Code or whatever, it could be bent, sometimes. It so happened that here was the exeption.

    So Qui-Gon's a hero, no matter what you think of him. At least to me, and DB93.
  8. DarthBane93 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Well said Jedi Charles and Obi-Gon!!!

    Well said.
  9. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Let me know if I've missed anything up to this point. "


    You missed the council telling Qui Gon that Anakin's fate would be decided later. Would they say if they were powerless to stop him?

    I just can't believe that the Jedi would cave in to someone's threats like that. They changed their mind because of the battle of Naboo.

  10. DarthBane93 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Yup,

    It was after the battle and after they realized that the sith have indeed returned and Qui-Gon was right about that, that they changed their minds on Anakin being trained, despite their concerns.
  11. jedimaster chris Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 1999
    star 2
    Obi Wan did say to Qui Gon "If you would follow the code you would be on the Council." So maybe Qui Gon did you his powers to get the upper advantage but then you would also have to say that Obi Wan used his powers to lie to the Stormtroopers on Tatooine in Mos Eisley. Was that a bad thing he did?
  12. wilde_karrde2002 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 2
    Qui-Gon cheated to set a slave boy free. He lied not for himself, but for others. He was never selfish, always kind.

    He cheated to set a Jedi boy free, possibly the one who will bring balance to the Force. I'm not sure Qui Gon would have even bothered with Anankin if he was just a regular boy.

    I also think it's possible that Qui Gon was being selfish. He wanted to take Anakin as his padawan, even though a)he already had one, and b)Anakin was too old to begin training. Even after he was denied it was his intent to train Anakin, at least indirectly. Qui Gon felt he could train the most powerful Jedi, when he wasn't even on the Jedi council. If that's not selfishness it's at least vanity. And that isn't very Jedi-like, either.
  13. MountainMan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2001
    star 3
    Qui-Gon, and later Obi-Wan, were quite fond of seeing things from a certain point of view. I mean, Obi-Wan pretty much flat out lied to Luke about his father, and that doesn't seem to phase any of you very much. Or what about his manipuation of the Stormtrooper? More lies and deception. It is quite obvious to me that the Jedi operate with a "the end justifies the means" mentality.

    As for the council agreeing, did it occur to any of you that the decision was not unanamous? Yoda obviously had some misgivings, and it is doubtful that he was the only one.
  14. SomeRandomNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Padme Bra & DarthBane93,

    The facts are, the Council tested Anakin, decided he wasn't to be trained, then for whatever reason changed their mind. Maybe it was because the Sith were back, and they didn't wnat him to be taken in by them? I don't know, I'm pretty sure the film doesn't so much as hint at the answer, so any guesses are pure speculation.

    We're essentially debating what happened off camera now- did the council agree before Yoda's speech, was it unanimous, what could they have done etc. which is entirely speculative on both sides of the argument.

    I just think it's odd that they allowed Obi Wan to train him, rather than give his training to someone with some experience.
  15. SlayerOfGungans Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    So...

    After all the input, has anyone ascertained whether or not the chance cube was loaded?
  16. SomeRandomNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    I think general concesus is that the novelisation says it was (I haven't read it though) and the film shows only one blue side.

    Watto: "We'll let fate decide."

    Yeah, right...
  17. Duckman Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Of course the chance cube was loaded! I really fear for the intellectual level of people that can't figure that out. No wonder they didn't understand the film :)
  18. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    You see the monster you created Slayer of Gungans? LOL! :D
    Look closely at the cube in TPM, and you can see the multiple red? sides.
  19. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    This thread is officially put...to rest! ;)
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