Qui Gon's "Cheating"

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by SlayerOfGungans, Jan 12, 2002.

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  1. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Well it all worked out didn't it? :p
  2. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Well it all worked out didn't it?

    If you consider the Jedi getting wiped out and the Republic destroyed and millions of lives lost as working out, then sure, it worked out. ;)
  3. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    The old Jedi order getting wiped out was half of the balance of the Force. The other half was the destruction of the Sith. So yeah, it worked out.
  4. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    The old Jedi order getting wiped out was half of the balance of the Force. The other half was the destruction of the Sith. So yeah, it worked out.

    WHAT?!!! Where the heck did you get that notion?!! How do you support that?

    It's commonly accepted that the Force is out of balance because the Sith are back in business using the Force for evil purposes. Bringing balance to the Force involves wiping out the Sith. That's it.
  5. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    The old Jedi order getting wiped out was half of the balance of the Force. The other half was the destruction of the Sith.

    So in order to achieve "Balance of the Force," everybody dies?? That's harsh.


  6. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    It's so simple. The old Jedi order was apathetic and complacent. The government was corrupt and things like slavery were allowed to run rampant because of borders. Under the Sith there was no such corruption but there was violence and tyrranny. Both of the old order had to be destroyed so that Luke, a product of both, could start a new order that would be balanced.
  7. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    You're kidding us, right? You're not serious. No way could you be serious. Where in any official SW resource does it say that the Jedi were "complacent" and "apathetic"?

    And more importantly, do you know anyone else that agrees with you on this concept?
  8. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    Didn't the Empire call itself the "New Order"?

    So, assuming you're right, Padme Bra... did Qui-Gon know this himself? That everyone needed to be wiped out, I mean.

  9. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    It's in the film, if you'd watch it for any reason other than to bash it. The Jedi allowed corruption to go on in the senate and slavery in the outer rim of the galaxy. They allowed themselves to be ruled by a corrupt politician and then a Sith lord, no less. So yeah, the old order had problems. The Jedi knew it as well, they knew there was imbalance before it occured to them that the Sith were back. They had to go before a new balance could be restored. I don't think anyone knew what had to happen, only that something needed to be changed.
  10. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    I don't think anyone knew what had to happen, only that something needed to be changed.

    Well, Palpatine and Vader certainly provided a change, all right. However, I doubt it was the change that the Jedi had in mind.


  11. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    Personally, I still see that Qui Jon as a hero. As for his lying and cheating and other whatnots he is being accused of, the truth depends on our point of view.

    For me, his manipulation of the dice was needed to ensure it was Anakin who placed on top rather than his mother. And his "lying" about testing Anakin about midiclorians, well, let us just say we all would be mortal sinners if he was condemned for that. Parents don't tell their kids the whole truth all the time. If kids saw the horrific pictures on tv of the September 11th attack, would parents say, "Some people crashed planes in the WTC, killing 2,000 people who worked there. Yes, those are injured people screaming on tv."

    Similarly, Anakin was not ready to know what Qui Jon suspected. Learning that you could be the Chosen One is not news that kids can take easily, Nor is learning that your father is ruthless killer easy either. Sometimes, we have to evade the truth, until the kids grow old enough to handle it.

    Furthermore, his "stealing" of the bongo: I am not even sure he stole the bongo. Jar Jar and Obi Wan would have protested loudly over this and yet, I do not remember an accusation of stealing. I am assuming that the bongo was received legitimately.

  12. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Padme Bra:

    It's in the film, if you'd watch it for any reason other than to bash it.

    And, conversely, if you would watch the film for any reason other than to gush over it, you would note that nothing you've said is anywhere near reality. :p


    The Jedi allowed corruption to go on in the senate and slavery in the outer rim of the galaxy. They allowed themselves to be ruled by a corrupt politician and then a Sith lord, no less. So yeah, the old order had problems. The Jedi knew it as well, they knew there was imbalance before it occured to them that the Sith were back. They had to go before a new balance could be restored. I don't think anyone knew what had to happen, only that something needed to be changed.


    Ahhhhh,.....do you know anyone that agrees with you on this one? :p
  13. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Padme Bra, the reason the Jedi "allowed" slavery to exist in the outer rim is because it wasn't a part of the Republic. Remember- "We would've found him earlier if he'd been born in the Republic."

    Qui-Gon is not a great hero. He screwed up. He is a fallen mentor who is on the outs with the other Jedi. As for the whole balance issue-Lucas did say that someone on the council knows about the whole balance issue and what it may mean, but we don't know who...yet.
    Frankly, it's a huge stratch to say Jinn is a great hero because he found the boy who eventually chucked Palpy down the shaft - If it weren't for Jinn finding Anakin-who then CHOOSES to join the darkside, then the Jedi would've still been around and prevented Palpy's rise.
    Darth Bane 93-Oh no, not again. :)

    I believe it was TJ who said "balance" meant wiping the Sith out. He's right. The Sith throw the force out of balance. If not, then answer me this - Who is left at the end of ROTJ? No Sith, but ONE Jedi. So is the force now out of balance? No. The balance has been restored. Luke is the real hero,not Qui-Gon.
  14. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    I see Qui Jon as a hero simply because he chose to save and protect Naboo from what he thought was an injustice to them. No matter what he did, I always thought of him as one of the good guys. Some of his actions may be questionable, but then again, not everything is always clear cut.
  15. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "And, conversely, if you would watch the film for any reason other than to gush over it, you would note that nothing you've said is anywhere near reality"


    I'm not a gusher. I have plenty of problems with TPM. However, I got tired of talking about them after the second year or so. Now I only come in here to dispell ignorance where I find it. :)

    Quote:
    "Ahhhhh,.....do you know anyone that agrees with you on this one? "


    I could give a bantha's hind quarters who agrees with me. But it made sense to some people when I mentioned it before.

    Quote:
    "the reason the Jedi "allowed" slavery to exist in the outer rim is because it wasn't a part of the Republic"


    Exactly.

  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Okay Mist, I agree with the Naboo liberation generally. But, heroes do not believe the end justifies the means. They always follow a moral code. Qui-Gon bucks the code and he pays a price for it.
    If someone new to the Saga were to sit down and watch the films in order from 1-6, by the end of 3 they likely wouldn't think too highly of Qui-Gon's judgment regarding the chosen one. By Jedi, when Luke casts his saber aside and says "Never. I'll never turn to the darkside." One would think "Wow. He chose the opposite path of his father." Luke's actions are redeeming towards Anakin and Qui-Gon. He makes up for their mistakes. Where they failed, he did not.

    Exactly what PB? Remember, the Jedi are the guardians of peace and justice IN the Old Republic, not the galaxy.
    So,you are saying a New Order needed to take place so the Jedi had to be wiped out. Cart before the horse? ;)
  17. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    I agree, ShaneP. Qui-Gon seemed to think that Anakin would restore balance to the Force by becoming a great Jedi champion, one who would surpass all others. In that, he was very wrong, as the Council was trying to tell him. Saying that he ultimately may have been right about Anakin restoring balance by killing Palpatine (only after 50+ years, extermination of the Jedi, a destroyed planet, and countless violent deaths across the galaxy) rings pretty hollow if you ask me. Weren't the Jedi supposed to prevent exactly that sort of thing?

    Qui-Gon blew it.


  18. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Padme Bra:

    I'm not a gusher.

    Yes, you are.


    I have plenty of problems with TPM.

    No, you don't.


    Now I only come in here to dispell ignorance where I find it.

    If you consider dispelling ignorance the same as arguing with logic, then you're doing a great job. :p


    I could give a bantha's hind quarters who agrees with me. But it made sense to some people when I mentioned it before.

    Who are these people and what is the name of their therapist? :p

  19. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    TrueJedi, I wouldn't say that I had problems with TPM if I didn't. I didn't like the kiddie elements and I thought the acting and dialogue left a lot to be desired. The difference is that those are my opinions and I'm not inclined to spend years harping on them. The only conversation I feel is worthwhile anymore regarding TPM is discussion of the facts and dispelling so called plot holes and inconsistenies that people claim to have. If that makes me look like a gusher then so be it but I'm not. I just don't believe in reiterating my negative opinions over and over like some people.
  20. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Right VCT. I mean some think Qui-Gon is alright now, but we haven't seen the full scope of the destruction Anakin causes. Even now, things look bad regarding Qui-Gon's choice.
    If you just watch TPM - "Hey, he found the kid that blew up the TF ship! Whoohoo!" So Mist and others are right there.
    We've watched Jedi, so some can say,"See! I knew it all along Qui-Gon was right!" Right. We knew that going in.
    But, what about ANH and TESB? All the slashing, choking,threatening,watching as millions die?

    Not only that, we're still missing the darkest pieces of the puzzle - Episodes 2 & 3.
    And, like you said, "Qui-Gon blew it."
    :)
  21. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    In this case, perhaps this was the only means. Qui Jon could not have simply stolen or taken Anakin without somehow getting it done semilegally through that bet or else Watto would have made a fuss and attracted attention.
  22. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    Oh, and about the huge extermination of the Jedis and the rebellion plus the Empire and all that...

    who knows what the Force has in mind? It is sort of like asking God why certain things happen. It just does...whether or not it seems logical to us. Then again, only about half of our things we do ourselves are logical, if even that much.
  23. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Even now, things look bad regarding Qui-Gon's choice. "


    Well, if the prophecy is taken to mean that the chosen one is the only one who could bring balance to the Force then it was the right choice. Otherwise, Palpatine would have gotten another Sith Lord to help him destroy the Jedi and the Sith would never have been destroyed.
  24. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Mist, perhaps Qui-Gon's tuning into the "living force" is an outdated(by TPM)way of looking at the force. Maybe that's another reason for Qui-Gon's falling out with the council. That's speculation, but Lucas has a lot of explaining to do in Episode 2. In interviews and on the TPM DVD commentary, he says as much.
    PB- Sorry, but it was Luke who saved his father. He brought balance. You still haven't answered my query into the whole balance issue. At the end of Jedi, there's a Jedi left but Zero Sith. Is the force now out of balance because of this? No. Luke restored balance by restoring the Jedi order and destroying the Sith. His descision NOT to turn to the darkside is the point at which he chooses not to follow his father's path and leads to the Sith's downfall.

    Besides, how do we know Qui-Gon didn't pick the wrong Skywalker. :D
  25. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I used to like the whole focus on Anakin but changed my mind some time ago. It seems for this whole "chosen one" nonsense to be accurate, Vader should have done more than toss that old geezer down a shaft. Lucas even stated himself that he realised Vader was the focus after he made the OT...NOT BEFORE. So Vader went from being Tarkin's tough right hand man to the chosen one. Very lame. But if we must accept this then:

    The whole balane thing does not refer to wiping out the Jedi. Since when did the force want to destroy beings who used their power to defend life? Since when did the force want Vader and Palpatine to reign terror and death for decades, destroying the peace? Why? So one day when Palpatine is a slow, old crusty man, Vader can sneak up from behind and throw him down a shaft? That propecy is just so crazy and weak it isn't worth calling it a propecy.

    Instead, you might say Qui-Gon was wrong and that Anakin was the chosen one to destroy the Sith. Aha! That makes sense. It also makes sense that it took this so long to happen after many deaths bc Qui did the wrong thing by taking Anakin from his mother at such a young age and by "cheating" with the force to reach his goal. This missuse of the force turned the chosen one into Vader and due to this, Anakin did not become all powerful and destroy the only the Sith. He destroyed the Jedi too.
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