Qui Gon's "Cheating"

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by SlayerOfGungans, Jan 12, 2002.

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  1. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Luke brought balance? Luke? Maybe there was a special edition that I missed but the last time I watched ROTJ, Luke was crumpled in the corner, being electrocuted by the Sith, not destroying it. Anakin destroyed the Sith and brought balance, not Luke. Luke is the balance. With the old Jedi order and the Sith gone, he forms a new order that succeeds where the others fail (maybe).

    hawk, you can't possibly believe it was Qui Gon's lying in front of Anakin that makes him turn to the dark side.
  2. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    It really depends on your point of view. Regardless of what Lucas says, it makes much more sense to see Luke as the Skywalker who brings balance by reaching to Anakin. But if you want to stand by Anakin my above theory makes more sense.
  3. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    No, PadmeBra. It isn't that at all. Qui-Gon FORCED this boy to be trained, cheating to take him away from his mother then pleading with the council. Did you miss all the council bits when Yoda and Mace say he won't be trained and show us that the boy could be very dangerous due to his fear. Obi-Wan was even clever enough to realise he was dangerous. But Qui insisted and against Yoda's wishes, he was trained. So bc of Qui's actions, yes, Anakin turns into Vader.
  4. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    No, Anakin made the choice to turn to the dark side. If you're going to blame Qui Gon for training him you might as well blame Shmi for having him. It was his decision. Sure he woudn't have became Vader if he wasn't trained but he also wouldn't have killed the Emperor and brought balance. And since it was he who killed the Emperor, it was he who brought balance. Sure he couldn't have done it without Luke but in a roundabout way he couldn't have done it without R2 either. He physically did it.

    EDIT: And Qui Gon hardly FORCED anyone to be trained. The decision was ultimatly the Jedi council's. Obi Wan threatened to do it himself but the council already agreed. So the blame for his being trained can hardly be put sqarely on Qui gon's back.
  5. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Umm...PB...did you read my posts? Luke brings balance by DESTROYING the Sith. It was Luke who called out to his father and pleaded to save him. Vader CHOSE to save him, but without Luke - Nope,Nada,Zilch.

    You've implied in your above posts that the Jedi needed to be wiped out because they allowed slavery(No,they didn't)corruption(did you watch the beginning of TPM with the TF?)and where basically just a bunch of lazy bums. Except Qui-Gon! He found the chosen one! He's a great hero! Really? Did He? Is He? How do you know this?

    Perhaps my statements about Luke being the balance is wishful thinking, but how do we know for sure. Maybe that's one of the things Lucas has in store for the next two movies.

    Hawk, yeah good points about the seemingly prevailing opinion about the whole balance of the force, Chosen One theme. If Lucas sentimentalizes and weakens Anakin's downfall with a bunch of "Oh, it wasn't Anakin's fault, he had no choice" junk, then I am done with the PT. Plain and Simple.
  6. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Luke brings balance by DESTROYING the Sith"


    I'm sorry, I guess I'm slow, but I still don't understand this statement. How did Luke destroy the Sith?
  7. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Qui-Gon CHEATED the boy away from his mother. Anakin didn't know any better than to follow. LUKE DID. He told Ben he can't leave but the ultimately, his choices were stagnated when Owen and Beru were killed. Anakin was not old enough to know that his training could hurt him. Sadly, Lucas has made Anakin not responsible for turning evil by introducing Qui. If Anakin were older, like Luke, as originally intended and then trained by his friend Obi-Wan, it would have made more sense. We could then blame him for his downfall. Instead e get Anakin being a slave, getting torn from his mother and, what many of us predict, having girl trouble. ll this leads to his downfall. All of this started with a Jedi who didn't play by the "JEDI CODE" and stuffed around a perfectly innocent kid. THE END!
  8. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Yes, you are. :) Okay...now...listen : Without Luke's denial of Palpy's attempt to turn him, Luke wouldn't have been fried right? Okay, Vader watches his son being fried and calling out for help and he grabs Palpy and gives him the ol' heave ho. Would that have happened without Luke being there? No. Was Vader just waiting until Palps turned his back so he could sneak up and give him the toss? No. What about Luke's importance in this don't you understand?

    IMHO, it was Luke,with his denial of Palp's wishes that he kill his father and join the darkside, that set the ball rolling. In fact, it was the whole confrontation between Luke and Palps. Remember in Jedi when Vader says "It is too late for me son"? Well, he's given up on himself. If not for Luke's descision to confront his father and Palps - Balance would not have been achieved.
    To imply Vader had to get close enough to Palps and was the only one is wrong. Otherwise he could have done it long ago. Luke showed his father that there is still good in him. Just enough to save his son and destroy Palps, and himself in the process. Luke believes this and that's why he doesn't give up, even while he's being fried.

    Hawk, you could say that Luke,being Anakin's son, was another redeeming quality in the whole chosen one theme. Without Anakin, bad as he was, there would be no Luke-The True Hero of the Saga. :D
  9. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    I agree that Anakin could not have done it without Luke. That's a given. But the fact remains, it was Anakin who made the decision to not remain Palpatine's servant. It was Anakin who physically killed the Emperor and brought balance. So if you had to pin down one person who brought balance to the Force, how could you not point to the person who actually did it? There are plenty of characters in the saga, without whom Anakin's redemption would not have been possible but you have to draw the line at the person who actually did it.
  10. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    As for Anakin's turning to the dark side, Anakin does not turn to the dark side because he was trained as a Jedi, as we will see in the next films. His training is just fine. Without getting into spoilers, there are other factors, as well as HIS OWN CHOICE that makes him turn. He exhibited Force powers before training, he could have grown to be a rotten little * anyway.

    But the fact remains. The Jedi council signed off on his training so the blame can't be all Qui Gon's. Not to mention the fact that he was right about the kid being the chosen one and ultimatly training him was the right decision.
  11. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Qui-Gon is a hero. You deny it, but it's the truth!

    Qui-Gon's decision too have Anakin trained brought severe short-term effects, but in the end, benificial long-term effects. So benificial, in fact, that it basically saved the whole galaxy. If Vader never got close to Palpatine, he would have never been destroyed, and reeked more havoc in the galaxy.

    Qui-Gon rules. ADMIT IT!! :)


    EDIT: As always, I recommend a look at this:

    Qui-Gon FAQ

    It should explain a few things.
  12. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Qui-Gon was a hack! He was labelled a Jedi Master and was slewn by an apprentice. Did you see how easily Maul took control of that fight? Obi-Wan was an apprentice and even he killed Maul. Qui-Gon was even stupid enough to encourage the young Darth Vader to be trained. Are you saying if Qui was alive in the OT, he wouldn't feel like a goose for being so devoted to lil Vader/Ani?
  13. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Not if he saw Anakin fulfill the prophecy he wouldn't. As for Maul, he was younger and just a better fighter. Maul kicked Obi Wan's arse too, he was just too stupid to finish him off.
  14. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Qui-Gon Jinnobi, there would have been no need for Vader to get close to Palpy because if Anakin hadn't been trained and chose to follow the dark path, he wouldn't have "helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights." How could Palpy have taken over the galaxy with the Jedi still in place? He couldn't. That's why Qui-Gon's descision to take Anakin off Tatooine led to the downfall of the Jedi,Old Republic, and a planetful of Alderaanians. Qui-Gon was the catalyst while Anakin was the actor.

    PB, fair enough. It seems we agree to a certain point. True, Vader actually picked up Palpy and threw him down the shaft. I would only add that,IMO, balance wouldn't have been reached without the involvement of Luke. Anakin realizes he loves his son, so he chucks the ol'geezer. To me, "Return" in ROTJ refers to Luke, not Anakin as others have reffered.

    Earlier, you said that the Jedi had to be wiped out to achieve balance. Do you still stand by this? IMO, the Sith throw the force out of balance by their mere prescence. The force is out of balance throughout the entire OT until the very end. Balance exists when the Sith are wiped out, not the Jedi. Luke accomplishes this by redeeming his father and to an extent Qui-Gon. Sure it was Vader's action, but he had all but given up on himself until his son convinced him otherwise.

    Lucas seems intent on turining Palpy into the true villain of the Saga - Fine. But, should we really feel sorry for Vader when he chokes,strangles,slashes, and kills his way through the OT? Is this was Lucas wants? That Anakin had no choice? That it wasn't his fault? Lucas has always said that Anakin chose the dark path, but in the last few years he's made statements about us "understanding" Vader's predicament. What? Excuse me? Did we ask Himmler -WHY? Goebbels? Mussolini? Certainly the former is fantasy with the latter, history. But, myths are parables on what values a culture holds, and the psychology behind said culture. The Great-Flanneled One is truly a great figure in cinematic history. But, if he tries to evoke sympathy for Vader's plight - I'm done. I still think he can pull it off.

    Finally,Qui-Gon is no villian, but he's a loner and fallen mentor with many flaws. He's not a hero and doesn't have to be. I still believe that his actions have grave consequences.And it takes the son of Anakin to right his father's wrong doing as well as Qui-Gon's.
    Take care PB.
  15. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Earlier, you said that the Jedi had to be wiped out to achieve balance. Do you still stand by this? "


    Yes I do. It's just my opinion, but I don't think that the Jedi order was doing all that well even without the Sith, for the reasons I gave. Luke embodies the best of both sides of the Force because he follows the light side of the Force but has seen conflict and wouldn't turn his back on the plight of his people and more importantly, he uses compassion to save his father; an emotion that the old Jedi order could never understand. So he is the balance.

    It's a ying yang thing, a concept that good and evil need each other and one cannot completly rule. It's an eastern concept that I can easily see Lucas emulating and it's a much more interesting idea than simply, "the bad guys were messing things up".

    Quote:
    "But, if he tries to evoke sympathy for Vader's plight - I'm done. "


    That's too bad. I don't know why some people feel that if we're made to understand why Anakin turned to the dark side that it somehow makes him less of a villain or makes Lucas some sort of PC sissy. This isn't Palpatine. Vader is not a one dimensional villain, he never was. Well, maybe in ANH but after that we got the sense that he was in conflict and was doing things for a reason other than his own personal power.

    If the PT is going to tell Anakin's story, it will have to give good reasons for his turning to the dark side, not simply because he wants power. Again, too simplistic. His choices are still his own and he is responsible but I think if we understand why he turned and can at least on some level sympathize, it'll make him a more interesting character.
  16. DarthBane93 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    I laugh at these Qui-Gon basher threads!

    :D

    Qui is a hero. He is responsible for helping Anakin bring balance to the Force, and for destroying the sith. Wanna know why?

    1. It was Qui-Gon who freed Anakin from slavery.

    2. It was Qui-Gon who stood up to the council's initial decision for not having Anakin being trained. If not for QUi, Anakin wouldnt have been trained, and Palpy would continue to rule. The Jedi would be wiped out. Vader ONLY HELPED hunt down and destroy SOME Jedi. Palpy and his Empire got the rest. You will see from the events in AOTC that you really dont need just Sith to kill Jedi.

    3. Anakin's decision to turn to the darkside WAS HIS OWN. It wasnt Qui-Gon's fault. AND YOU KNOW WHAT? IT NEEDED TO HAPPEN!! WANNA KNOW WHY? Because no Jedi could get close to Palpy to destroy him. It was ANAKINS FATE that made him make those choices to turn to the darkside. As a result, he was in a position to kill Palpy (because of his position). Palpy trusted him. That is what Obi and Yoda were banking on with Luke. They knew that Luke could help turn back Anakin to the good side. No Jedi could get close enough to Palpy to do it....nor could they do it even if they were close. Anakin's high midichlorian count serves a purpose! WANNA KNOW WHY? Because when he picks up Palpy in ROTJ, he survives long enough due to his high midi count to kill Palpy. Any other Jedi would have been fried. Obi couldnt do it. Neither could Yoda. If they could, dont you think they would have tried after EpIII?? There is a reason why they didnt. BECAUSE THEY COULDNT!

    So it is Anakin that brings balance. Not Luke. I love Luke. He is the ultimate hero IMO. But it was Anakin that brought balance. George Lucas even said so. And that is a quote!

    And how did Anakin get there:

    1. Because of Qui-Gon Jinn's actions to free him from slavery and standing up to the council so he could be trained.

    2. Obi's poor training. But hey, it was fate for it to happen that way.

    3. Anakin's own choices to turn.

    Bottom line, it was FATE for Anakin to turn. It was really nobody's fault. And Qui-Gon Jinn helped Anakin reach his potential (along with Obi) and get into a position to fulfill his prophecy.

    Nuff said.
  17. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    There are too many solid facts:

    1. Qui lied and cheated when there were other alternatives.

    2. He went against the Jedi Code

    3. He forced a young boy into training who ultimately wiped out the Jedi.


    Hence...hack!

    EDIT: Spelling
  18. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    If all the Jedi had been like Qui-Gon, there never would have been a purge. I know people like to believe Obi-Wan when he says it was a golden time before the Empire, but he was wrong. The Jedi were lazy and corrupt. That was how Palpatine managed to turn people against them.
  19. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
  20. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    HERE ARE THE ANSWERS TO YOUR QUESTIONS:


    1. Is Anakin the "Chosen One"?

    - Yes. He is the Chosen One because the midichlorians created him in an effort to combat the new rise of the Sith. His job is to destroy the Sith. As hawk said, when Lucas made the OT, he intended for Luke to be the Chosen One but after the OT, Lucas decided he wanted to make Anakin the focus of the saga. But like ShaneP said, Luke is the true hero of the saga. Nevertheless Anakin is the Chosen One.


    2. What made the Force unbalanced?

    - The practicing of the Sith Arts is what creates the inbalance. Any use of the Force for offensive/evil purposes is what puts the Force in an unbalanced state.


    3. What brings balance to the Force?

    - When Anakin destroys the Sith, then there will be balance.


    4. Are the Jedi lazy, corrupt, apathetic, etc. in the Prequels?

    - No. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that to be the case. The Jedi are doing the best they can to locate the Sith but the Sith have a flawless technique to remain stealth.


    5. Why didn't the Jedi Council send a brigade of Jedi to locate Darth Maul on Naboo?

    - Because Darth Maul would not have revealed himself if he was faced with so many Jedi thus the task of drawing out the Queen's attacker would have failed.


    6. Did Qui-Gon lie, cheat, and steal?

    - Yes, he did.


    7. How did Qui's lie to Watto impact Anakin?

    - At this point there's no way of knowing for sure but how do you think any child would mentally process bad behavior performed by an adult that the child adores? Like hawk stated, Qui's actions have consequences and may very well be a contributing factor to Anakin's downfall.


    8. What did Lucas say about Qui-Gon's insistence that Anakin be trained?

    - I'm paraphrasing but Lucas said in an interview that essentially Qui was wrong to insist in having Obi-Wan train Anakin, but that Qui was right that Anakin needed to be trained. In ROTJ, Obi-Wan confirms that it was a mistake for him to train Anakin and that it would have been better to have Yoda train him.


    9. Was it Anakin's fate to turn to the Dark Side?

    - No. He has more midi's and a better ability to hear the Will of the Force than anyone in the Universe, including Palpy. He could have beaten Palpy but instead because of his poor training and his own selfish desires, he succumbed to the Dark Side.


    Any other questions?
  21. Sincra_Kunnar Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2002
    star 1
  22. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Qui-Gon did what the LIVING FORCE told him to. Qui-Gon was a Jedi with a heart. He wouldn't let a poor slave boy stay a slave if he could help it. It wasn't Qui-on's fault Anakin turned to the Dark Side. But even so, he did bring balance to the Force. Qui-Gon didn't know what was going to happen. He just knew what the Force told him to do, AND HE DID IT! Despite the stupid Jedi Council, despite all the contrary opinions, he did what he thought was right. Did he do it because he felt like it? Certainly not! Did he go against the council because he liked Anakin? No! He knew full well what he was getting into. He was in-tune with the Living Force, and it whispered to him, telling him what to do. And you know what? He did it!

    Vader wasn't that bad, if you think about it. If he didn't turn to the Dark Side, the Jedi Purge was still bound to happen. He most likely ws going to be destroyed too. Also, I doubt if he would have had Luke or Leia if he wasn't trained. So in the end, it was the right choice.

    I have Galactic Battlegrounds. I know this doesn't mean much, but in the game, sometimes if you click on Qui-Gon he says: "If it serves the greater good" or something like that. His decision was for the greater good.

    Qui-Gon was a hero.

    The End.
  23. SomeRandomNerd Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Excuse the long post, but this subject fascinates me.
    :)

    I think the character of Qui Gon is the pinnacle of Lucas' "certain point of view" theme.

    We have Anakin/Vader, Palpatine/Sidious, Obi Wan/Ben, Padme/Amidala, SPOILER/SPOILER ;)

    And Qui Gon, liberator/kidnapper, depending on your point of view. (What are the chances that "Anakin" and "Vader" will have the same point of view on this one?)

    And, of course, your focus determines your reality...

    Just as TPM generally looks like the good guys win in the end, but with the knowledge of the rest of the saga it's actually the bad guys who won, I think that Qui Gon looks like he's being a hero, but with hindsight will look like he did badly.

    Look at the origin of his name;

    From the Qui Gon Jinn website (www.qui-gonline.org) Obi-Gon_Jinnobi posted a link to;

    The name derives from the Chinese "qi gong," (chee goong) a phrase which refers to the ancient Chinese art of Chi, or life force, manipulation.


    Note that Anakin is perfectly well attuned to the Force without any training- he's got midichlorians practically screaming the Will of the Force to him so loud that he doesn't need any Jedi training to be able to hear it, as demonstrated in the podrace and end battle ("In my experience, there's no such thing as luck.")
    But without the training in the Jedi arts, he's got no ability to MANIPULATE the Force to his own will.

    See, the thing I see as Qui Gon's failing is his eagerness to happily use Force-manipulation at whim- to get a submarine off Boss Nass, to try and get Watto to take worthless currency, to make the dice roll go the way he wanted. All the time so focussed on the here and now that he's got no idea what the possible consequences of his actions are.

    And it's this ability to manipulate the Force, this incredible POWER that I think will corrupt Anakin.

    From "Hero of a thousand faces" by Joseph Campbell;

    (in the "unsuspected Aladdin caves" of our subconscious) not only jewels but dangerous jinn abide: the inconvenient or resisted psychological powers that we have not thought or dared to integrate into our lives.... These are dangerous because they threaten the fabric of security into which we have built ourselves and our family.
    But they are fiendishly fascinating too, for they carry keys that open the whole realm of the desired and feared adventure of the discovery of the self. Destruction of the world we have built and in which we live, and of ourselves within it; but then a wonderful reconstruction, of the bolder, cleaner, more spacious, and fully human life...


    1) "Threaten the security [of] our family"- while Obi Wan was happy to leave Luke on Tatooine with his uncle (before they were killed, and Luke was ready to leave), Qui Gon was perfectly happy to whisk Anakin away from his family, despite him being at an age where the maternal bond is too strong to be broken without any consequence (again, too focussed on the here and now.)
    2) "Discovery of the self." Remember that Anakin is a kid who "gives without thought of reward" ie. selfless. But somewhere along the line, he ends up "consumed" by the Dark Side of the Force- acting through selfish emotions.
    3) The "wonderful reconstruction"- ie. the end of ROTJ.

    I have to say, I think it's amazing how rewarding digging into these films is- how anyone can call TPM "lazily written" is beyond me...

    Anyway...


    ShaneP
    >>>>Vader watches his son being fried and calling out for help and he grabs Palpy and gives him the ol' heave ho. Would that have happened without Luke being there? No.

    Would that have happened without Yoda training Luke in how to avoid going down the Dark Path? No. Doesn't make Yoda the chosen one.
    Would it have happened if Palpatine had chosen a quicker way of killing Luke? No. Doesn't make Palpatine the chosen one.
    Would it have happened if the gunner in ANH had seen that there were no life forms on board the escape pod and shot it anyway? No- doesn't make
  24. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
  25. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    SomeRandomNerd:

    Does using the Force to cheat a dice roll count? (Assuming that it wasn't the will of the Force.)

    I find myself now in the unusual position of defending Qui in this instance. Clearly Watto's cube was loaded in his favor. Qui used the Force in a defensive manner to compensate for the fraudulent aspect of Watto's cube. Qui's action was defensive thereby using the Force appropriately.


    The "Ivory Towers", out of touch with the population they were supposed to be serving thing was lost on you then?

    No such thing was shown. You saw far more than was there.


    I'd love to see your source...

    And see it, you shall:

    George Lucas told the Japanese CUT Magazine, "I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct."

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