Qui Gon's "Cheating"

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by SlayerOfGungans, Jan 12, 2002.

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  1. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    You are right SRN, Qui-Gon does have people who look at his actions from different points of view.

    BTW, about Luke's importance to the saga: I was reffering to the FACT that Anakin being close enough to Palpy alone,in and of itself, cannot justify VADER's Actions. If we're going to say it was Anakin who CHOSE to turn to the dark side, then the same must be said it was Vader who blasted millions into oblivion, strangled a rebel commander, and hacked his own son's right hand off.

    This whole "It Was His Fate. FATE MADE ME DO IT! What?! Either he was responsible for his own actions or not. This whole "We must understand him and his motivations" is a bunch of hooey. So, next time I watch Vader commit all of his diabolical acts in ANH and ESB, I won't be blaming Palpatine,which is what some people apparently want, I'll blame Vader.

    Dear Lord, 5 years from now hopefully there won't be fans who look at Anakin as Vader in ANH and burst out crying, "The poor man!" "It wasn't his fault he crushed that man's esophagus. Really, it wasn't." He had no choice" He had to do it so he could eventually bring balance."

    Vader was one of Palpy's henchmen and I'd hate to see Lucas try and sentamentalize or weaken the true villian that is Lord Vader, one of the greatest villains in cinematic history. IMHO, big mistake.

    But, I'm going to wait until the credits roll on Episode 3 until I reach a conclusion.
  2. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    TrueJedi, why don't you just admit you like Qui-Gon and join us? You're like, one of the smartest folk out there (look at how long you've bashed Qui-Gon, one of your favorite characters). Just admit you like Qui-Gon and defend him like you want to!
  3. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Sincra_Kunnar:

    Are you so certain?

    I'm absolutely positive. :)
  4. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Join us! Join us!

    *Croud chants*

    We want TJ! We want TJ!
  5. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Obi-Gon_Jinnobi:

    TrueJedi, why don't you just admit you like Qui-Gon and join us? You're like, one of the smartest folk out there (look at how long you've bashed Qui-Gon, one of your favorite characters). Just admit you like Qui-Gon and defend him like you want to!


    Padme Bra once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the basher side. I must obey my master. It is too late for me, Obi-Gon_Jinnobi. The Phantom Editor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now. :p


  6. -Soup Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    TrueJedi is the hero that Qui-Gon should have been. :cool:
  7. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    *Starts weeping*

    Noooooo! You can't do this! You still have good left in you! I can feel it!

    Don't make me fight you! ;)
  8. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
    Just let TJ think whatever he wants to think. I happen to agree with parts of both sides of the argument. Yes, there are several ways to look at this character. If you look to the future, yes, he did set into motion the events that would eventually lead to the Jedi purge, so how can he be considered a hero for that? On the flip side, he also helped free the one who is supposed to bring balance to the Force. I don't think we are really in a position to see how wrong or right he was until the next two episodes are out. The way it looks now, with his insistance on training Anakin eventually leading to the downfall of the Jedi, he comes out looking pretty bad.

    As far as all that nonsense about the Jedi having to die for there to be balance: I guess we'll have to wait and see. But right now, it sounds pretty hokey, IMHO. ;)

  9. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    LoL! Yes Jinnobi, TJ is smart but, by trying to turn him to the dark side are you admitting the gushers are lacking? :)
    SJ, I guess both sides have reached an impasse.
  10. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    No, we are not lacking. He's a fine fellow, on the inside. GIVE HIM UP!
  11. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Well I think this is concluded. Qui can be looked at, as both hero and hack.
  12. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    The Knights of Basherdom will never give him up. NEVER!
    Actually, TJ, SJ, Quix, B_S, VCT, Hawk, and others are the true bashers. I lurk on the periphery of their province and try to fight off the occasional gusher at the gate. :)

    And no, we don't want Go-Mer in exchange.

    Nice Points Hawk - Qui-Gon : Episodes 1 - 5 3/4 = Fallen Mentor. Episode 1/4 Flawed Hero.
  13. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    I find this all very interesting as well. I agree it all depends on your point of view, but I'm going to add my $.02 anyway.

    Let's take it from a different perspective: How would Qui-Gon himself feel about how things turned out, assuming his "Force ghost" could stand by and watch all of the events over the 50 years following his death?

    Would he be unmoved by all of the ensuing carnage, remain on his high horse and maintain that he was justified in following the will of the "Living Force" -- after all, Anakin killed Palpatine, and thus restored balance to the Force just like he thought? Unfortunate that it was in such a roundabout way, but such is fate? To me, that is what some of his 'defenders' on this thread are more or less doing.

    Or would he be appalled at what he helped wrought? Anakin turns to the dark side, as Vader he helps Palpatine establish tyranny over the galaxy, virtually all of the Jedi are exterminated by his hand, an entire civilized planet is destroyed, and untold millions (probably billions) die in galaxy-wide conflict. Over 50 years, Anakin eventually brings balance to the Force in the same way it can be said that Hitler eventually brought peace to Europe. The only real difference is that he redeems himself at the very end and kills the one evildoer that was even worse than he was.

    Would Qui-Gon's conscience prevail and would he admit the folly of his hubris? (For that is what it was -- hubris: Overbearing pride or presumption; arrogance.)

    If he has a conscience at all, I'd like to think that he would be a man and admit to his folly. He wouldn't be defending himself the way some people are defending him here.

    Qui-Gon is a very flawed hero at best -- sort of like King Creon in the ancient Greek tragedy "Antigone." Like Creon, he is so convinced that his judgement is the correct one that he ignores any signs of what will eventually prove to be horrifying consequences. Personally I think that is more what Lucas was aiming at with Qui-Gon -- he believed himself to be doing good, but his arrogance was a fatal flaw, and thus he was not a "hero" in the truest sense.


  14. TJ_Redeemer Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2002
    Qui-Gon is a true hero! You just can't admit it.

    As for TJ, he has good still left in him. I can feel it. So he's not a true basher!
  15. Bud Frescoe Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2000
    star 3
    I think VCT pretty much nailed it in his last post, ladies and germs ...
  16. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    After some really deep thoughts about this subject, I come to the following conclusion:

    Qui Gon had the best of intensions, but the consequences as a result are NOT his. He freed the boy from slavery using means that he thought were needed in the situation. He saved Naboo using means that he thought necessary. He may have manipulated Boss Nass for the bongo, or he may not have. Qui Gon saw great potential for the boy as a Jedi and knew he could not leave him as a slave on Tatooine.

    It was Anakin, however, who ultimately decided to turn to the Dark Side. Perhaps it is fate, perhaps it is not, depending on how you view life. I do NOT believe that Anakin's turning to the Dark Side, however, was influenced by Qui Gon. Qui Gon could never have predicted with absolute certainty that Anakin would fall to the Dark Side and he thought what he was doing was best.

    For example, and without going into specifics, Isreal was created with the best of intentions for the remaining Jews after WWII. Perhaps no one could have predicted absolutely, however, was the eventual conflicts Isreal would have with its neighbors.

    [EDIT: A little addition here: That is not to say that Qui Gon will not regret his decision to free the boy; possibly he would regret it even more than Obi Wan, but at that time, he thought he was trying to free a boy who had great potential to be a Jedi.
  17. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Guys, I appreciate the effort but I'm paid up on my basher subscription until May 2002. If I quit now, there will be a substantial withdrawl penalty and I won't get the remainder of my money back. So I'm kinda stuck. :p
  18. DarthBane93 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Qui-Gon Jinn is no different than the way Old Ben Kenobi was portrayed in the OT.

    Qui-Gon did what he had to do in order to get the chosen one out of slavery. He could have killed Watto, used the Force to find the little device in Anakin and deactivate it. Did he? No. He didnt use any aggression. He actually taught Watto a very valuable lesson.

    I love Luke, but Luke tells Jabba that he should free Han or die. Is that any better? No. Slavery is evil. Watto is a slave owner and a gambler. Instead of killing Watto to free Anakin, Qui-Gon used his own weaknesses against him. He never stole anything. He just used the Force to even up the chance cube thing...which is already fixed in Watto's favour (which is why he was so angry when it went against him).

    So you could say that QUi-Gon just OUTSMARTED his opponent, instead of taking aggressive action. Isnt that what a Jedi is supposed to do. The Jedi are guardians of peace and JUSTICE. Qui-Gon was just teaching Watto a lesson.

    And even when Watto was saying he couldnt have Anakin after Anakin won the race...did Qui-Gon take any violent actions? No. He just said that he would inform the Hutts who would arbitrate the case. Obviously Watto knew he (Watto) was the one who was cheating Qui-Gon, which is why he just let Qui take him.

    End of story. You bashers are so closed minded that you dont know what is in front of you.

    Qui-Gon is a very compassionate man. He shows no anger, no fear, no biggitry, and no favoritism. He is honest, regardless of what you bashers make him out to be.

    You know...I think I know why you Qui bashers hate him so much. You must all be Obi-Wan diehard fans and are upset that Qui stole screen time away from Obi.

    While I would have preferred Obi to have more screen time to...it didnt happen. Regardless of what you think, the SW saga (Vader, Luke, Leia, destruction of Palpy) would never have happened if Qui-Gon didnt do what he did. You cant say it may have...because GL made it this way. Anything else is fanboy EU crap.

    Oh and by the way:

    1. TrueJedi: Where did you see that quote that Lucas said that QuiGon was "WRONG" to have made those choices? It sound very un-Lucas like. Until I see an actual quote on that, I wont believe it. Please provide it if you can, it would settle alot of this too.

    2. There have been many people who have said Luke it the hero of the SW saga. I love Luke. I agree! Long live Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight and friend of Captain Solo!!! :)
  19. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Lucas did say this. But he also said he was ultimately probably right too.


    VCT definately did nail this topic 100%. Good job. :)
  20. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    I need some clarification regarding VCT's post. Where exactly were the signs that Anakin would become an evil Darth? Anakin is shown to be powerful, yes, by his midi count, but having great potential does not make one bad.

    In all fairness, Anakin proved to be a boy of morals: he risked his life for Qui Gon and the others in the podrace and seemed loving of his mother. What were the other signs that Qui Gon could have seen that would have pointed of Anakin's future?
  21. SlayerOfGungans Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2001
    star 1
    Guys(and ladies)...

    All I asked was whether or not anyone thought the chance cube was loaded.
  22. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    The council thought he would be dangerous as did Obi-Wan. They sensed fear in the boy and drew that conclusion. That should be reson enough for Qui's "signs" that he was potentially dangerous. Even after the council said he wouldn't be trained, Qui told Anakin to watch him and stay close. Basically he was going to make Anakin a Jedi no matter what they said. It was even his dying wish.
  23. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>He may have manipulated Boss Nass for the bongo, or he may not have.

    Yeah. Maybe he was just stroking his CGI dog that they forgot to add in...


    >>>>The council thought he would be dangerous as did Obi-Wan.

    Not quite.

    Yoda: "Grave danger I sense in the boy's training."

    Obi Wan didn't put forward any opinion of his own- he just sided with the council; "the boy is dangerous, the council can sense it, why can't you?"
  24. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    Not neccessarily a sign. Luke ignored the advice of Yoda, like Qui Qon, when Luke went off to save his friends, thus perhaps, Luke was giving in to his fear at that point. Luke managed to turn out ok this time being that he did not turn like his father as a Sith, although with his hand chopped off.

    Being a flawed hero is not really a bad thing. I think it is more likely that Luke also had bouts with hubis, such as the before-mentioned episode, when he thought he could save his friends with the minimal training he had.
  25. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    DarthBane93:

    1. TrueJedi: Where did you see that quote that Lucas said that QuiGon was "WRONG" to have made those choices? It sound very un-Lucas like. Until I see an actual quote on that, I wont believe it. Please provide it if you can, it would settle alot of this too.

    I already did. Here it is again:

    George Lucas told the Japanese CUT Magazine, "I think it is obvious that he (Qui-Gon) was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct."
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