Qui Gon's "Cheating"

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by SlayerOfGungans, Jan 12, 2002.

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  1. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    "I think it is obvious that he (Qui-Gon) was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct."

    Sounds like a Lucas quote to me.
  2. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    So Lucas said that ultimatly Qui Gon may have been correct. So what's the problem? Anyway, again, the council and Yoda ultimatly decided to allow Anakin's training. So if the decision was wrong, it's not all on Qui Gon's shoulders.
  3. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    Mist, as for clarification concerning my last post, Hawk just did a good job of providing it. However, to elaborate further:

    I agree that Anakin displayed little if any "evil" tendencies to Qui-Gon; by all rights he seems like a darned good kid. But that's not really the issue. Qui-Gon blithely ignores the counsel of his elders and superiors. In this he is actually worse than King Creon in "Antigone," to bring up a classical analogy again. In Antigone, Creon sticks to his guns quite stubbornly until he meets with a wise old prophet, Teresias, who foretells disaster if he continues his current course of action. Because he respects the old man's wisdom, Creon realizes he just might be wrong and acts to reverse his policies. This being a Greek tragedy, he is too late, and the doom that Teresias warned about comes to pass.

    Now, wouldn't you say that Yoda plays the role of Teresias here? He's Qui-Gon's elder by, oh, 800 years or so. He's the head of the Jedi Council. His wisdom should far supercede Qui-Gon's, and the latter should respect that. But he doesn't. To Qui-Gon, Anakin is the "chosen one" and that's all there is to it. He'll have the boy trained no matter what, to heck with Yoda's wisdom. If that isn't blatant hubris, I don't know what is.

    Is Qui-Gon the only one at fault for everything that happens? Of course not. He isn't directly responsible for turning Anakin to the dark side. And the Council (rather inexplicably) post-mortem decides to appease his wishes that the boy be trained. But the fact is, Qui-Gon was the one who brought Anakin into the Jedi fold. It was HE, not anyone else, who insisted that Anakin be trained as a Jedi, despite the misgivings of, well, anyone not named Qui-Gon Jinn. Quite simply, Qui-Gon was the catalyst that started it all.

    I ask again -- would Qui-Gon have been proud of his role in how things turned out? I wouldn't be if I were him. In fact, I'd be feeling pretty darned stupid (to put it very mildly). Anyone with a conscience would.


    Being a flawed hero is not really a bad thing.

    I never said it was a bad thing. In fact, I believe it makes Qui-Gon a more interesting character than if he were just a "true hero." My posts are intended to refute those that were asserting that Qui-Gon is a pure hero through-and-through and "I just can't see it."


  4. wilde_karrde2002 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2002
    star 2
    I think Qui Gon did cheat.

    Obi Wan makes reference to the fact the Qui Gon would be a member of the Jedi Council if he didn't disagree with them so often.

    He seem to be a believer in "the ends justifying the means." He used the Force on Boss Nass to provide transport to Theed. He tried to use it on Watto to get the hyperdrive parts. Despite his denial to Yoda, Qui Gon did believe that Anakin was the Chosen One. He decided to use the Force to influence the chance cube in order to bring the Chosen One back before the Jedi Council.
  5. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Ok, here's some info I gathered from www.qui-gonline.org. For all o' ya--mainly TJ....

    Is Qui-Gon bad?--
    "There are many schools of thought on this issue. Some Star Wars fans are ready to condemn Qui-Gon for what they consider hypocrisy in committing such acts as gambling, lying or concealing the truth (about his identity, refusing to allow the Queen to know about his plans to "trust our fates to a boy we hardly know," gambling her property without her knowledge, etc), cheating (by using the Force to affect Watto's chance cube), and even stealing (in a notorious cut scene from TPM, Qui-Gon was to have been shown surreptitiously swiping the power unit from Watto's shop which he later gives to Anakin to test his podracer. His use of the mind trick to make Boss Nass to give him a bongo transport has also been construed as stealing by some).There are some compelling defenses for Qui-Gon's actions. Perhaps the best one is that Qui-Gon's moral code does not prohibit such methods, but rather embraces them as being savvy, their effectiveness in achieving larger goals far outweighing any moral weight they may carry. As Lyta Alexander points out in an essay, the Ninja have a similar philosophy toward stealth and trickery. Another defense is that it is the will of the Force that Qui-Gon completes his mission by whatever means. Qui-Gon's individual acts can in many cases be simply explained away; for instance, it can be easily argued that Qui-Gon was never really gambling because, as Watto later accuses him, "you knew the boy was going to win! Somehow you knew it!" Qui-Gon replies, "whenever you gamble, my friend, eventually you'll lose." In order to avoid coming to the immediate conclusion that Qui-Gon really is a hypocrite for lecturing on the very vice he himself apparently has been indulging, we must conclude that there is some degree of truth in Watto's words. There is a lot of evidence for that in the utter confidence Qui-Gon has prior to the race in Anakin's still-unproven abilities. The novel suggests that the chance cube that it was loaded anyway, making Qui-Gon's "cheat" merely a response to Watto's.But even if some things can be explained away, a larger theory which integrates the methods in question into the accepted Jedi repertoire is simpler as well as more satisfying. There is a lot of discomfort in our society with the idea of the ends justifying the means, but in this case that seems to be a reasonable way of looking at it. There seems to be no "ten commandments" of Jedi behavior saying that lying or cheating is below a Jedi. The Jedi must sometimes overlook small instances of good and bad in order to objectively pursue the greater good. And as George Lucas said in an interview with Bill Moyers, "the Light Side and the Dark Side are designed around compassion and greed." All Qui-Gon's actions are selfless in nature, done out of compassion for others and a desire to serve. There is no motive of greed, of personal gain, in the character, and therefore no good argument can be made that he has Dark Side tendencies."1

    Why do the council and Qui-Gon have a disagreement over Anakin?--
    "The Masters on the Council are apparently more in tune with the Unifying Force than the Living, as they need to look at the big picture when deciding fates and missions, but this has caused them to lose touch with the moment-to-moment Living Force ways of Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn. They cannot see past the sense of dread they get surrounding Anakin's future to see that Qui-Gon may ultimately be right. They're not bad, they just have a different point of view from Qui-Gon and may be a little too rule-bound as well. Although Mace Windu (and Yoda, for that matter) is rather condescending.The Terry Brooks novel describes Obi-Wan's thoughts:Qui-Gon had been right in his suspicion that the boy was possessed of an inordinately high midi-chlorian count. Obi-Wan had run the test himself. But that alone was not enough to demonstrate Anakin was the chosen one. If there was such a one, which Obi-Wan seriously doubted. There were hundreds of these o
  6. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    I'll tell you what I think when I have seventeen years to read all that.
  7. stone_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2001
    star 4
  8. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Where's the cliff notes version when we need it? Geesh Jinnobi.
    VCT still made more sense in 250 words than those people did in 2,500.
    There's a Jedi Code BTW, contrary to what the first person says.
  9. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    Although I believe your intentions were honorable, and I commend you on your efforts, but is there a way to get a more concise version?
  10. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Obi-Gon!

    My god! That is the longest post I have ever seen! Way to go!
  11. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Actually, according to Word, it's 5,341 words. Can someone give me the gist of the synopsis of the Cliff notes?
  12. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Its a good read Padme Bra, I would suggest reading it all.

    Thanx Obi-Gon!
  13. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
  14. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    I actually read it prior to writing my last 2 posts and had already taken what it said into account. I agree that it's an interesting read, but it really doesn't affect the point I have been trying to make. Most of it is rambling speculation and offers little in the way of concrete conclusions.


  15. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    It looks like this has been debated for some time.

    After reading some of the long post, I would like to modify my argument. I not believe hubris or arrogance was the fault of Qui Gon now, because he just wanted Anakin to be trained, but he did not care by WHOM. He would not have objected if Anakin was trained by another Jedi.

    Moreover, as SomeRandomNerd pointed out, Yoda sensed only danger in Anakin's training, but not his future. Luke himself had confronted a few dangers during his "training" namely the loss of his hand, but his future was very much positive. No future is set in stone, "Always in motion is the future." Anakin could have very well became a great Jedi leader instead of an evil Sith.

    Thus, there was no indication that Anakin would become bad and Qui Gon was no so arrogant to say that only HE can teach the Chosen One, just that he should be trained because Qui Gon felt great potential. [EDIT: It was only after the Council's first decision that Qui Gon took the inititive.] And Yoda sensed only "danger in the boy's training." Sensing itself is not an absolute prediction, but rather just a feeling or a vague prediction. Qui Gon may not have followed the Council's decision, but even the Council changed its own mind after Qui Gon's death. Obviously, the Council, in all its wisdom, decided that perhaps training Anakin was best after all.
  16. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    Mist, you bring up good points, but you are still missing mine. I've never disputed the fact that Qui-Gon is trying to do the right thing and no doubt has the best of intentions -- for Anakin, the Jedi, everyone. As far as "intention" goes, he is fine.

    But what I have been trying to say here is that he never seriously considered the fact that he could be wrong. This is where hubris comes in. Hubris is not necessarily an overtly evil or selfish act. On the contrary, often the person committing it has the best of intentions and truly believes that he/she is doing what is necessary and right. It is that belief that can be blinding.

    As for there not being any indication that Anakin could turn bad -- come on. The Council made their decision the first time: Anakin has much fear in him as a result of his separation from his mother (which, by the way, Qui-Gon is responsible for), therefore he should not be trained. Obi-Wan: "The boy is dangerous. The Council senses it, why can't you?" How much more obvious does it need to be? Lucas spells it out for us. Apparently only Qui-Gon and his biggest fans fail to realize it.


  17. Mist1024 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2001
    star 2
    One more comment before I decide to bow out of the JC forums for a break. I may lurk around but I won't be posting for some time.

    It does not explain why the Council, despite its misgivings, decided to side with Qui Gon in the end. Despite its misgivings, the Council decided to train Anakin. Why?

    And Yoda's sensing and first refusal to train Anakin is not neccessarily to be a sign; Yoda initially refused to train Luke also because he was "too old" and I believe, impatient or reckless, but Luke turned out well.

    Although I do believe that training was eventually a mistake, I do not believe that Qui Gon was at fault. Anakin could have turned out well from his training; he truly could have even with his fear. He could have overcame his fear, but something happened later to cause him to fall and fall deeply.

    Qui Gon, however, was far from perfect, evident from his less than honest means. I do believe, however, that he was practical. In order to survive in a outlaw world, some manipulation may have been needed.
  18. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Despite its misgivings, the Council decided to train Anakin. Why?

    Because Obi Wan said he'd train him without the councils permission if he must. The council didn't "decide to train him"- they gave him permission.

    How they would have stopped him, I'm not sure...
  19. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    SomeRandomNerd:

    Because Obi Wan said he'd train him without the councils permission if he must. The council didn't "decide to train him"- they gave him permission.

    How they would have stopped him, I'm not sure...


    Well said. And let me add this:

    Qui-Gon took Anakin as his Padawan as is his right. When Qui-Gon was struck down by Maul, his dying words to Obi-Wan was for Obi-Wan to train Anakin. So the right to train Anakin was passed on to Obi-Wan.

    That's why Lucas states that Qui was both wrong and made a dangerous decision. Why wrong? Because Obi-Wan was not capable of training Anakin properly. He was far too new a full Jedi Knight and was not up to the task of training the Chosen One.

    Plus, there may be some other reasons like hawk and others have mentioned for why Anakin should not have been trained in his current condition, including the situation with Shmi.

    But, Lucas states that training Anakin in some fashion was the right thing to do because he alone was destined to kill the Emperor. Whether Luke could have done it himself is an argument for another time.
  20. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    Because Obi Wan said he'd train him without the councils permission if he must. The council didn't "decide to train him"- they gave him permission.


    I swear some of you haven't seen the film. Yoda had already spoken to the council before Obi Wan threatened to train Anakin on his own. Yoda said that the council agreed to allow Anakin's training. Now unless Yoda had a telepathic meeting with the council in the two seconds after Obi Wan said he'd train Anakin, I think the council had already decided that he was to be trained.


    Quote:
    Whether Luke could have done it himself is an argument for another time


    Actually, we can settle it right now. Palpatine had Luke in the fetal position screaming for his father. If not for Anakin, Luke would have been barbequed. I think it's safe to assume Luke was powerless against the Emperor.
  21. TrueJedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Actually, we can settle it right now. Palpatine had Luke in the fetal position screaming for his father. If not for Anakin, Luke would have been barbequed. I think it's safe to assume Luke was powerless against the Emperor.

    I would have preferred another time but since you insist...The reason Luke was laying on the ground in a fetal position is because he refused to fight Palpy.

    I mean, he threw down his lightsaber and just stood there. There's no way of knowing what would have happened if he tried to fight Palpy. Clearly, he had more midi's than Palpy and maybe even more than Anakin. Luke also had the knowledge of what actions and thoughts would lead to the Dark Side and the additional benefit of not having the same emotional issues that Anakin had. So, unless you have some quote from GL on this, it remains speculation.

    My only thought is that Anakin is the Chosen One since GL wrote the prequels and he was meant to kill Palpy and that perhaps he was the only one that could do it.

    However, as hawk said, Luke was the focus of the saga in the OT and the "Son of Suns" (a clear reference to the Messiah or Christ of the Bible, who is Himself the Chosen One) and that Luke is also the "new hope". So perhaps as such, Luke could have defeated Palpy.
  22. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    You think Luke's lightsabre could have somehow deflected Palpatine's lightning? Cause that's the only variable. If Luke had the ability to deflect it with the Force he would have done it.
  23. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    TrueJedi:

    "Clearly, he had more midi's than Palpy and maybe even more than Anakin."


    You clearly make stuff up as you go. That much is evident.

    Your flaws in Qui-Gon, to you, are flaws. To the SW saga, they are not. Let me tell you something:

    1. The reason why Yoda and the council first denied Anakin being trained is because they disregard the "living force". Qui-Gon doesnt, he even tells Obi-Wan that and from what you see in Old Ben in the OT, it is obvious that he himself has adapted to being like Qui-GOn.

    2. Lucas said that no matter what, Qui-Gon was ULTIMATELY RIGHT in standing up to the council and his stance on Anakin being the chosen one. End of story. The council saw this too...because they saw there was "more to meet the eye" about the sith returning. Qui-Gon told the council that he thinks the sith had returned. The council, as "rigid" as they are, didnt believe him at first until Qui-Gon died. That just shows that they are so complacent with their ways, they wont budge in any direction until it bites them in the a$$.

    3. With that being said, that is how the council falls to Palpy. Dont you find it hard to believe that 2 sith destroy almost 10,000 Jedi. Only 2 survive. Everyone else dies. Wanna know why? Because the concil is rigid, arrogant, egotistical (in their own suttle way), blind, and stagnant. That is how Empire's fall...because they think nothing can harm them. That is how the Empire was defeated in ROTJ. That is how the Jedi will fall too. So it just goes to prove that the concil really didnt know anything IMO. If they did, they wouldnt have all died.
  24. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
  25. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Padme Bra,
    >>>>I swear some of you haven't seen the film. Yoda had already spoken to the council before Obi Wan threatened to train Anakin on his own. Yoda said that the council agreed to allow Anakin's training. Now unless Yoda had a telepathic meeting with the council in the two seconds after Obi Wan said he'd train Anakin, I think the council had already decided that he was to be trained.

    Is there anything more than this in the novelisation;


    YODA : Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Coucil does. But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not.

    OBI-WAN : Qui-Gon believed in him.

    YODA : The Chosen One the boy may be; nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training.

    OBI-WAN : Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must.

    YODA : Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree, the council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be.



    Why doesn't the Council (via Yoda) give permission until Obi Wan has effectively threatened to leave the Order and take Anakin with him?

    Could it be because they still didn't want Anakin to be trained?

    And I stand by what I said- the council DIDN'T "decide to train Anakin"- they decided not to stop Obi Wan from training him.

    DarthBane93
    >>>>1. The reason why Yoda and the council first denied Anakin being trained is because they disregard the "living force".

    No- the reason they denied Anakin his training was because they thought the danger of his falling to the Dark Side was too much.

    >>>>2. Lucas said that no matter what, Qui-Gon was ULTIMATELY RIGHT in standing up to the council and his stance on Anakin being the chosen one. End of story.

    No- Lucas said Qui Gon was ULTIMATELY RIGHT about Anakin being the chosen one. Not about his training.

    >>>>3. With that being said, that is how the council falls to Palpy. Dont you find it hard to believe that 2 sith destroy almost 10,000 Jedi. Only 2 survive. Everyone else dies. Wanna know why? Because the concil is rigid, arrogant, egotistical (in their own suttle way), blind, and stagnant. That is how Empire's fall...because they think nothing can harm them. That is how the Empire was defeated in ROTJ. That is how the Jedi will fall too. So it just goes to prove that the concil really didnt know anything IMO. If they did, they wouldnt have all died.

    So you've seen Episode 3 then? What's it like? Does Qui Gon appear in it?
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