Qui Gon's "Cheating"

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by SlayerOfGungans, Jan 12, 2002.

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  1. snailwalker_DK Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Qui Gon never do like the Council tells him to!!

    So from his point of view lying is OK

    Got it :)
  2. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    DarthBane93:

    You clearly make stuff up as you go. That much is evident.

    Did you miss the part about Anakin having the most amount of midi's than anyone else? If that's so and Luke beat Anakin, what should that tell you? Clearly, you don't follow the saga very well.

    As for the rest of the stuff that I've already covered before, SomeRandomNerd does a great job in refuting you.


  3. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Padme Bra:

    You think Luke's lightsabre could have somehow deflected Palpatine's lightning? Cause that's the only variable. If Luke had the ability to deflect it with the Force he would have done it.

    We don't know what Luke could have done because he didn't try. The whole point was that Luke was trying to save his father and the only way to do that was to have his father save him.

    It's a beautiful story Lucas has written even if it is difficult to understand at times.
  4. Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2001
    star 6
    And I stand by what I said- the council DIDN'T "decide to train Anakin"- they decided not to stop Obi Wan from training him.

    "Agree with you the council does, you're apprentice Obi-won will be."

    So, your saying that the council agree that whatever Obi-won decided, he was right? Interesting, I've never heard that translation of that line before. What makes you think that? Something in the novelization?


    Lucas said that no matter what, Qui-Gon was ULTIMATELY RIGHT in standing up to the council and his stance on Anakin being the chosen one. End of story.

    I find it distrubing, on many, many levels, that Lucas is now taking the approach that Anakin/Vader is now the real hero of the SW universe, and that it was a good thing he wiped out the Jedi, just as long as he tosses the Emporer down a well at the end of the story. What, like killing Palpatine in ROJ actually made up for everything AND made the universe a wonderful place to live finally?
  5. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>So, your saying that the council agree that whatever Obi-won decided, he was right? Interesting, I've never heard that translation of that line before. What makes you think that? Something in the novelization?

    No- I haven't read it.

    I think you're missing my point (or I'm not putting it very clearly.)

    The council never say that Obi Wan (or Qui Gon) isn't allowed to take on Anakin. They just say (at first) that they won't train him. So Qui Gon says he'll take him on as his padawan- which the council apparently don't have a problem with, so long as Obi Wan "graduates" first.

    After Qui Gon dies, we don't see Obi Wan ask for permission to train Anakin. We see him promise Qui Gon that he would train him. Then we see him talking to Yoda- threatening to train Anakin without the councils permission. Then Yoda gives Obi Wan the councils permission.

    Yoda is speaking on behalf of the council- that much is clear. Whether he's saying that the Council agrees with him that Obi Wan has Qui Gon's defiance, or that the council agrees to allow Obi Wan to train Anakin, or that the council just agrees that one way or another Anakin will be Obi Wan's apprentice, I don't know.

    >>>>I find it distrubing, on many, many levels, that Lucas is now taking the approach that Anakin/Vader is now the real hero of the SW universe, and that it was a good thing he wiped out the Jedi, just as long as he tosses the Emporer down a well at the end of the story. What, like killing Palpatine in ROJ actually made up for everything AND made the universe a wonderful place to live finally?

    You got all of that from a Lucas quote about Qui Gon (taken out of context)?

    [face_shocked]

    Let me reassure you that Lucas did not say that "no matter what, Qui-Gon was ULTIMATELY RIGHT in standing up to the council and his stance on Anakin being the chosen one."

    The actual quote was;

    I think it is obvious that Qui-Gon was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrfice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor.
    - CUT interview 09/07/99?
  6. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Why doesn't the Council (via Yoda) give permission until Obi Wan has effectively threatened to leave the Order and take Anakin with him?"


    That's just when Yoda decided to tell Obi Wan. He says that the council agreed. That means that the entire council must have voted to allow Anakin to be trained, with possibly only Yoda in disagreement. If they had agreed to allow him to be trained just because Obi Wan threatened to do it anyway, they're not much of an organization and desrved to die.

    Quote:
    "Did you miss the part about Anakin having the most amount of midi's than anyone else?"


    He had more midis than anyone tested. We simply don't know how many Palpatine had. All we know about him is that out of countless Sith lords over the millenia, he was the one who revealed himself and his apprentice to the Jedi. He's the Sith "chosen one" of sorts. As for Luke having as many or more than his father, that's doubtful.

    Quote:
    "We don't know what Luke could have done because he didn't try. The whole point was that Luke was trying to save his father and the only way to do that was to have his father save him."


    So you think that he allowed himself to be tortured and almost killed by the Emperor so that his father could save him? Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that.


  7. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>That's just when Yoda decided to tell Obi Wan. He says that the council agreed. That means that the entire council must have voted to allow Anakin to be trained, with possibly only Yoda in disagreement.

    Or it means that Yoda's head of the council, and what he says goes,
    Or it means that the council was split, and Yoda had the deciding vote which he saved until he'd spoken to Obi Wan,
    Or it means that the council didn't really care one way or the other and let Yoda do what the Force told him to do,
    Or (my own interpretation) the council agreed that they didn't want him to be trained, but would rather him be trained under their supervision and control than as a maverick Jedi.

    If they had agreed to allow him to be trained just because Obi Wan threatened to do it anyway, they're not much of an organization and desrved to die.

    A little harsh...

    >>>>So you think that he allowed himself to be tortured and almost killed by the Emperor so that his father could save him? Well we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

    Well, Big George puts it best;


    ...Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act - when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this" - that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.
    - Extract from Time interview (Bill Moyers) 03/05/99


    Interesting that it's when he tosses his green lightsaber aside and stops "working intuitively" that he is able to undo Qui Gon's mistake...
  8. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    Thanks for the clarification, RandomNerd. I understand where Stryphe is coming from, though. According to some people here, it is almost as though the whole idea of the fall of the Republic, extermination of the Jedi, destruction of Alderaan, death of billions in galactic conflict, etc etc etc., should be considered "acceptable collateral damage" towards Qui-Gon's end.

    If they had agreed to allow him to be trained just because Obi Wan threatened to do it anyway, they're not much of an organization and desrved to die.

    This is the sort of argument that gives me reason to make my above statement.

    I don't believe that the resulting "collateral damage" was remotely acceptable, and I'm willing to bet that neither would Qui-Gon had he known what would ultimately happen. Not if he was anywhere near as noble as people are saying.

    I would like to think that Qui-Gon's "ghost" would admit to some responsibility for the outcome of his decisions and express some remorse over it. Just as Obi-Wan did, when he said "I thought I could train Anakin as well as Yoda. I was wrong." Some of Qui-Gon's apologists here seem to think that he shouldn't even have to do that, that he is truly not at fault for anything. After all the Council ultimately approved the training, so if anything the blame is now theirs, yada yada yada. I don't buy it.


  9. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Or it means that Yoda's head of the council, and what he says goes,
    Or it means that the council was split, and Yoda had the deciding vote which he saved until he'd spoken to Obi Wan,
    Or it means that the council didn't really care one way or the other and let Yoda do what the Force told him to do,
    Or (my own interpretation) the council agreed that they didn't want him to be trained, but would rather him be trained under their supervision and control than as a maverick Jedi."


    That's all wild speculation. The simpler and more logical answer is that the council agreed to allow Anakin's training. Again, the Jedi do not seem like a group that would cave in after a threat.

  10. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    SomeRandomNerd:

    "No- the reason they denied Anakin his training was because they thought the danger of his falling to the Dark Side was too much."


    Ok smartguy, why did they want to eventually train him then? And in the novelization, it is stated that Qui-Gon signifies the Living Force whereas the council doesnt.

    >>>>2. Lucas said that no matter what, Qui-Gon was ULTIMATELY RIGHT in standing up to the council and his stance on Anakin being the chosen one. End of story. (you quoted me here...and your response is....)

    "No- Lucas said Qui Gon was ULTIMATELY RIGHT about Anakin being the chosen one. Not about his training."


    Ummm...what is your point here? That is exactly what I am saying.

    "So you've seen Episode 3 then? What's it like?"

    Wow. I must be the smartest man alive to know that all but 2 Jedi die at the hands of Palpy and Vader! Did you watch the OT? What does Yoda say when he dies? "The last of the Jedi will you be". What does that tell you?
  11. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    TrueJedi:

    "Did you miss the part about Anakin having the most amount of midi's than anyone else? If that's so and Luke beat Anakin, what should that tell you? Clearly, you don't follow the saga very well."


    No, I didnt miss that part. The key line you wrote is that "Anakin" has the most midi's than everyone else. Luke doesnt. The Force conceived Anakin whereas Anakin conceives Luke. You dont inherit everything from your parents. Only some is passed down if you know anything about genetics.

    And you are travelling on a tangent heading for the EU by saying Luke could have done this and that. While I personally believe that Luke Skywalker is the hero of the OT, Anakin still is THE ONLY ONE who can kill the Emperor. That is STRAIGHT FROM LUCAS' MOUTH. So NO, Luke cannot kill the Emperor. Accept it.
  12. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    DarthBane93:

    No, I didnt miss that part. The key line you wrote is that "Anakin" has the most midi's than everyone else. Luke doesnt. The Force conceived Anakin whereas Anakin conceives Luke. You dont inherit everything from your parents. Only some is passed down if you know anything about genetics.

    Yeah, I know about genetics but this is a fantasy so reality is suspended. We really don't know if Anakin has more midi's than Luke but Luke did beat him so it's an open issue. I merely pointed out the obvious.


    And you are travelling on a tangent heading for the EU by saying Luke could have done this and that.

    That's right. And I made it clear that this discussion was something for another time. By which Padme Bra decided to debate the merits of this issue in this forum. I merely responded with my thoughts. Then, of course, you jumped in and here we are.


    While I personally believe that Luke Skywalker is the hero of the OT, Anakin still is THE ONLY ONE who can kill the Emperor. That is STRAIGHT FROM LUCAS' MOUTH. So NO, Luke cannot kill the Emperor. Accept it.

    You need to accept that I have already accepted that for the saga only Anakin would be the one to kill Palpy. The discussion of Luke fighting Palpy was a "what if". Accept it and let's move on, shall we?

  13. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    "Yeah, I know about genetics but this is a fantasy so reality is suspended. We really don't know if Anakin has more midi's than Luke but Luke did beat him so it's an open issue. I merely pointed out the obvious."

    - Perhaps Anakin wasn't interested in killing his son.
  14. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Perhaps Anakin wasn't interested in killing his son.

    Perhaps slicing his son's hand off was an act of love.
  15. DarthSeti5 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2001
    star 5
    He had plenty of chances to kill him in ESB. He seemed more bent on turning him, not killing him.
  16. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Yes, we know that but later in ROTJ Vader seemed resolved to kill Luke.
  17. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    TrueJedi:

    "Shall we move on?"

    Sure. No worries.

    But I agree with the other poster in the fact that it was never Vader's intention on killing Luke. Yes, Vader couldnt defend himself against his son, but since he did save him, he obviously never wanted him dead.
  18. naw ibo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 1999
    star 5
    Interesting that it's when he tosses his green lightsaber aside and stops "working intuitively" that he is able to undo Qui Gon's mistake...

    Ah...you've done it again, SRNH. Given me a good line I can use. Everyone always wants to say "Oh but Luke is using the same color as Qui-Gon so that means he's following Qui-Gon's way, blah blah" but you are right, he tosses that "green Qui-Gon colored saber" aside and in doing so, in making a rational decision as opposed to Qui-Gon's way, he succeeds. LOL!! It's wonderful.

  19. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Naw Ibo,

    Damn right!
    :)

    Padme Bra,
    >>>>That's all wild speculation. The simpler and more logical answer is that the council agreed to allow Anakin's training. Again, the Jedi do not seem like a group that would cave in after a threat.

    No more specualtive than your interpretation. (I was trying to list alternative interpretations.)

    The most logical answer is that Lucas showed us Obi Wan and Yoda's discussion because it was important/relevant- otherwise he could have just skipped to Obi Wan telling Anakin that "the council has given me permission to train you" conversation.

    Why did he show us Obi Wan threatening to train Anakin without the councils permission?

    DarthBane93,

    >>>>why did they want to eventually train him then?

    They didn't. Qui Gon did, then Obi Wan had a promise to keep. I don't think there's anything in the film to suggest that the Council wanted to train Anakin, or that they wanted Obi Wan to do it.

    I think they simply would rather have him trained under their supervision than outside the order. (There's an old Ep 2 spoiler rumor about the number 20 that might be relevant here.)

    >>>>"No- Lucas said Qui Gon was ULTIMATELY RIGHT about Anakin being the chosen one. Not about his training."

    ..what is your point here? That is exactly what I am saying.

    My point is that Qui Gon was right that Anakin is the Chosen One, and his destiny is to bring balance to the Force, but he was wrong that he should have been trained.

    >>>>Wow. I must be the smartest man alive to know that all but 2 Jedi die at the hands of Palpy and Vader! Did you watch the OT? What does Yoda say when he dies? "The last of the Jedi will you be". What does that tell you?

    Watch ANH:
    Obi Wan: "I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father."

    ie. he was, but isn't any more.
    How many more ex-Jedi that weren't killed are in the galaxy?

    Anyway, my point was that we don't know how or why the Jedi Order is wiped out- you might be right, it could well be "Because the concil is rigid, arrogant, egotistical, blind, and stagnant." But it might not.

    Personally, I think it will be because they have allowed themselves to become isolated from the people they are supposed to be serving.

    TrueJedi,
    >>>>We really don't know if Anakin has more midi's than Luke but Luke did beat him so it's an open issue.

    Ah, but what if Obi Wan beats Anakin in Episode 3?
  20. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    SomeRandomNerd:

    "I don't think there's anything in the film to suggest that the Council wanted to train Anakin, or that they wanted Obi Wan to do it."

    I now quote Yoda from TPM, "Agree with you the council does, your apprentice, Skywalker will be." End of story.

    "My point is that Qui Gon was right that Anakin is the Chosen One, and his destiny is to bring balance to the Force, but he was wrong that he should have been trained.

    How can Anakin bring balance without being trained in the ways of the Force? That is Qui-Gon's whole point. That is what Lucas means that Qui-Gon was ultimately right. That is what Lucas is showing us so you cant say Anakin could have done this and that...that is EU fanboy stuff. And how could Anakin defeat Palpy without being trained in the ways of the Force in the first place?

    Ok, I agree we really dont know if there are other ex-Jedi out there, only after EpIII will we know for sure. But I think Obi telling Luke that he was "once" a Jedi Knight is just his shame and guilt talking for his role in Anakin's fall, so he doesnt consider himself a Jedi anymore.
  21. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    DarthBane93:

    But I agree with the other poster in the fact that it was never Vader's intention on killing Luke. Yes, Vader couldnt defend himself against his son, but since he did save him, he obviously never wanted him dead.

    I would agree that early on during the fight in ROTJ Vader was still trying to turn Luke to join him but after Vader says:

    "If you will not fight, then you will meet your destiny."

    Vader is resigned to end Luke's life since turning him has failed. And especially so when Vader sets his thoughts on turning Leia.
  22. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Ah, but what if Obi Wan beats Anakin in Episode 3?

    Let's wait and see what happens in Ep.3.
  23. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    TrueJedi:

    "Vader is resigned to end Luke's life since turning him has failed. And especially so when Vader sets his thoughts on turning Leia."

    Sure, I do agree, but all Vader wanted to do was goat Luke into getting mad. Vader was just unprepared for how powerful his son really was. Caught him off guard, and like all sith, they get overconfident...just like Maul was when he could have defeated Obi in TPM.
  24. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "Why did he show us Obi Wan threatening to train Anakin without the councils permission?"


    To show Obi Wan's resolve, not to portray the council as a spineless group that caves under threats.
  25. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Padme Bra,
    >>>>To show Obi Wan's resolve, not to portray the council as a spineless group that caves under threats.

    Maybe. But I think TPM makes it clear that they couldn't stop Qui Gon from taking Anakin on as his padawan (how could they? Take away his badge and lightsaber?) So I don't think they could have stopped Obi Wan either- if they didn't give him permission he would have trained him anyway, which would have meant an inexperienced Jedi teaching a kid with incredible potential (and because of his age, one who's particularly susceptible to the Dark Side) without their supervision/advice/etc.


    DarthBane93,
    >>>>I now quote Yoda from TPM, "Agree with you the council does, your apprentice, Skywalker will be." End of story.

    If I can refer you to my previous posts- only after Obi Wan has threatened to train him without the councils permission. They don't want him to be trained- even though they (or at least Yoda) accepts that he's the Chosen One.

    >>>>How can Anakin bring balance without being trained in the ways of the Force? That is Qui-Gon's whole point. That is what Lucas means that Qui-Gon was ultimately right. That is what Lucas is showing us so you cant say Anakin could have done this and that...that is EU fanboy stuff. And how could Anakin defeat Palpy without being trained in the ways of the Force in the first place?

    Anakin is attuned to hearing the Will of the Force. He's been brought into being by the Force where he WONT be detected and trained as a Jedi. He is the Force's "tool", or slave if you like- it effectively controls him- as demonstrated in the Naboo battle.

    Jedi training gives him control over the Force, so rather than following the Will of the Force, he can manipulate the Force to his own will. Which is (I think) basically the Dark Side.

    Listen to Yoda:
    The chosen one the boy may be. Nevertheless, grave danger I fear in his training.


    >>>>Ok, I agree we really dont know if there are other ex-Jedi out there, only after EpIII will we know for sure.

    At least we can agree on something!
    ;)

    >>>>But I think Obi telling Luke that he was "once" a Jedi Knight is just his shame and guilt talking for his role in Anakin's fall, so he doesnt consider himself a Jedi anymore.

    Maybe. But he wasn't so ashamed that he didn't tell Luke that he'd taught him in the first place...

    I always interpreted it as meaning that the Jedi Order didn't exist anymore, so even though Obi Wan and Yoda were still around, they just weren't Jedi anymore, because there wasn't such thing as a Jedi.(Until "Return of the Jedi"...)
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