Qui Gon's "Cheating"

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by SlayerOfGungans, Jan 12, 2002.

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  1. Obi-Gon_Jinnobi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2001
    star 3
    Qui-Gon was right about training Anakin. True, he did turn to the Dark Side. He also helped destroy the Jedi. But he also was the father of Luke and Leia, which wouldn't have happened if he wasn't trained. Some say that it's possible, but if you look at it reasonably, it's quite impossible. I think you would agree that if he wasn't Obi-Wan's apprentice he wouldn't have ever seen Padme again. So we can safely say that Luke/Leia wouldn't have been born if Anakin wasn't trained. Another thing is if Anakin wasn't trained he wouldn't have destroyed Palpitine. You see, if he never got close to Palpatine while he was young, he wouldn't have gotten to know him. Unless, of course, if the council refused to let Obi-Wan train him and Palpatine hunted him down, making him his apprentice right away! Now that would be trouble!

    Now, back to topic. Yoda, Qui-Gon, or anyone else knew what would happen in the future. Yoda felt danger, but that's it. Qui-Gon followed his heart. He actually listened to the Force. It spoke to him. He couldn't ignore it. Now, if you say Qui-Gon is wrong, you're basically saying the Force was wrong.

    If in doubt, look to the movies themselves! Qui-Gon said nothing happens by accident. Doesn't that say anything? He was probably more attuned to the Living Force (IMHO) than any other Jedi living at that time. You see, the Unifying Force gives clues and knowledge of the future, the past, ect. The Living Force focuses on the "here and now." Even though they're almost completely opposite, don't you think they're in harmony? The Force is the Force. Even though Yoda sensed danger, it doesn't mean that it's a bad thing, does it?

    Look at the WTC. Sure, it was bad, but in the end, it may cause terrorism to cease. Which is better in the long run?

    I would like to see Qui-Gon appear in episode III to clear his name. I really hope so. Obi-Wan will probably curse his name, and Qui-Gon'll just appear behind him and tell him it's alright. It's the Will of the Force, is it not?

    I hope this subject will be cleared up in the next SW movies, or I'm gonna scream! :)
  2. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>He also was the father of Luke and Leia, which wouldn't have happened if he wasn't trained.

    I don't know about that- if he'd not been taken back by Obi Wan after Qui GOn got skewered, maybe he could have lived on Naboo with Padme?

    And if he hadn't turned to the Dark Side, he wouldn't have needed Luke to "redeem" him...

    >>>>Another thing is if Anakin wasn't trained he wouldn't have destroyed Palpitine. You see, if he never got close to Palpatine while he was young, he wouldn't have gotten to know him.

    True- but if Episode 1 had ended differently, there's no telling what could have happened...

    >>>>Now, back to topic. Yoda, Qui-Gon, or anyone else knew what would happen in the future. Yoda felt danger, but that's it. Qui-Gon followed his heart. He actually listened to the Force. It spoke to him. He couldn't ignore it. Now, if you say Qui-Gon is wrong, you're basically saying the Force was wrong. If in doubt, look to the movies themselves!

    OK...


    YODA : (Cont'd) Master Qui-Gon more to say have you?
    QUI-GON : With your permission, my Master. I have encountered a vergence in the Force.
    YODA : A vergence, you say?
    MACE WINDU : Located around a person?
    QUI-GON : A boy... his cells have the highest concentration of midi-chlorians I have seen in a life form. It is possible he was conceived by the midi-chlorians.
    MACE WINDU : You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force...you believe it's this boy??
    QUI-GON : I don't presume...
    YODA : But you do! Revealed your opinion is.
    QUI-GON : I request the boy be tested.
    The JEDI all look to one another. They nod and turn back to OBI-WAN and QUI-GON.
    YODA : Trained as a Jedi, you request for him?
    QUI-GON : Finding him was the will of the Force...I have no doubt of that. There is too much happening here...
    MACE WINDU : Bring him before us, then.
    YODA : Tested he will be.


    :)
  3. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    Here's what I shall say to True Jedi in 2005:

    "Young fool. Only now at the end do you understand. You have paid the price for your lack of vision."

    :)
  4. TJ_Redeemer Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2002
    I say, all this rubbish about Qui-Gon foolish...until you know the whole story.

    EDIT: Go Duckman!!

    :)
  5. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    RandomNerd:

    I don't know about that- if he'd not been taken back by Obi Wan after Qui GOn got skewered, maybe he could have lived on Naboo with Padme?

    And if he hadn't turned to the Dark Side, he wouldn't have needed Luke to "redeem" him...


    I smell EU here. It didnt happen that way so you cant say that.

    Plus, if Anakin never turned to the darkside, how would he even get close to Palpy to destroy him in the firstplace?

    That is a MAJOR POINT that people keep on missing here. As Qui said, "Nothing happens by accident". Good point Obi-Gon Jinnobi! Have you ever wondered why Obi-Wan or Yoda (immediately after the events in EpIII) never went after Vader and Palpy? If Obi does in fact beat Anakin, why couldnt he do it again and then him and Yoda double team on Palpy?

    Because they couldnt get near Palpy. He had an Empire protecting him. I know Anakin is the only one who could have killed Palpy, but if Anakin were still a Jedi, how do you forsee him even getting close to Palpy? He would then have the same trouble as Yoda or Obi would.

    The WHOLE POINT of the saga is that Anakin is redeemed by his son and kills Palpy. Only way it could have happened is if he turned to the darkside and would gain the trust of Palpy who would then not see it coming (Anakin returning and killing him).

    Those who cant see that...sorry, I dont know how you misinterpret the SW Saga.
  6. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    I say, all this rubbish about Qui-Gon foolish...until you know the whole story.

    The whole story? We saw the whole story in TPM and the whole story is that Qui is a liar, theif, and cheater. When will you get it through your head? :p
  7. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    DarthBane93:

    Plus, if Anakin never turned to the darkside, how would he even get close to Palpy to destroy him in the firstplace?

    Well, doesn't Anakin get close enough to Palpy in order to get turned to the Dark Side in the first place? Hello?

    We don't have enough info at this stage to make a determination. And, we won't have that info until 2005 when I will laugh in Duckman's face. :p

    So unless you're helping GL write the prequels, your theory that Anakin had to turn into Vader, murder lots of people, including wipe out the Jedi, is pure speculation, and way out there as well.

    The reality is that Anakin was created by the midi's for the purpose of bringing balance back to the Force. The imbalance was created by Palpy's use of the Dark Side. Did the midi's create Anakin so he could be turned to the Dark Side? Sounds kind of off for the midi's to have a plan like that, right? Yes, indeed. I think the midi's created Anakin to fight and defeat Palpy, head on. But because of Anakin's pride and whatever other emotions got in the way, he instead got turned to the Dark Side.

    So while your theory takes us through some bizarre assumptions, mine is clear and straight forward.

    I'm guessing that my theory will be the clear winner by 2005.


  8. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>I smell EU here. It didnt happen that way so you cant say that.

    I was responding to the point that if Anakin wasn't trained he wouldn't have had Luke and Leia. Nothing to do with EU.

    >>>>That is a MAJOR POINT that people keep on missing here. As Qui said, "Nothing happens by accident."

    Exactly- Anakin being born outside the Republic where the Jedi wouldn't detect him wasn't an accident. But Qui Gon was so convinced that he should be trained because of his midichlorian count that he let his own opinion get in the way of the Will of the Force.

    >>>>Have you ever wondered why Obi-Wan or Yoda (immediately after the events in EpIII) never went after Vader and Palpy?

    I'll wait to see what happens in Episode III before I address that point.

    >>>>Because they couldnt get near Palpy. He had an Empire protecting him.

    But without Anakin's help in destroying the Jedi, he wouldn't have had an Empire...

    >>>>The WHOLE POINT of the saga is that Anakin is redeemed by his son and kills Palpy.

    No- the whole point of the Original Trilogy is that Anakin is redeemed by his son and kills Palpatine.

    The Prequel Trilogy is about how Anakin got into the position that he needed to be redeemed by his son.

    >>>>Those who cant see that...sorry, I dont know how you misinterpret the SW Saga.

    Instead of talking about how Return of the Jedi proves that Anakin had to become Vader to bring balance, try to bring up something from Episode 1 to support your theory that Qui Gon was right to train Anakin. Just one, single point. Please.
  9. Duckman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2000
    star 4
    "And, we won't have that info until 2005 when I will laugh in Duckman's face."

    Who will laugh more? The fool or the laughing fool who follows him?
    :p
  10. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Oh Geez...

    TrueJedi:

    "So unless you're helping GL write the prequels, your theory that Anakin had to turn into Vader, murder lots of people, including wipe out the Jedi, is pure speculation, and way out there as well"

    and "The imbalance was created by Palpy's use of the Dark Side. Did the midi's create Anakin so he could be turned to the Dark Side? Sounds kind of off for the midi's to have a plan like that, right? Yes, indeed."


    Lucas said in an interview prior to TPM, and I have the mag (I will look it up and post it tonight...right now I am at school) that it was Anakin's fate to turn to the darkside of the Force. That is why all the tragic events (edit spoiler, him getting separated from Shimi, council's initial decision to reject Anakin, Qui dying, etc etc) happened. It all led him to feel the way he did and to eventually make that choice.

    The Empire and Palpy's rise to power was going to happen anyways...regardless if Anakin existed or not. In TPM, Anakin had nothing to do with Palpy becoming Chancellor. In AOTC, Anakin has nothing to do with *edit spoiler*. And in EpIII, there will be 2 sith (Palpy and *edit spoiler*). All Anakin/Vader does *edit spoiler*. By the end of EpII, hundreds (maybe thousands...I dont know the exact # here) die, including some *edit spoiler*. By the end of EpIII, thousands more will die due to the *edit spoiler*...in which Anakin is fighting FOR the Jedi. So Anakin doesnt wipe out any Jedi at that point. Most of the Jedi are gonna already be dead by the time Vader arrives. So when you say the midi's plan is for Anakin to turn, no it isnt the midi's plan, but it is fate that puts Anakin in that position to balance the Force. Everyone here is assuming that Anakin kills hundreds or thousands of Jedi. Who knows if he even kills one? All we know is that he kills Old Ben in ANH. Again, and YOU CANNOT DENY THIS, Palpy would have his Empire regardless if Vader came along or not. And if Vader didnt, no Jedi would get close to Palpy regardless to hurt him. End of story.

  11. VCT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 3
    Uh, DarthBane93... try to make your point without listing a lot of spoilers. This being a non-spoiler forum and all that.

  12. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    SomeRandomNerd:

    "But without Anakin's help in destroying the Jedi, he wouldn't have had an Empire...


    Read my previous post above. I explain it there.

    "The Prequel Trilogy is about how Anakin got into the position that he needed to be redeemed by his son.

    Exactly. Why would Lucas make Anakin turn bad you think? If it was the story of Luke Skywalker as the ultimate hero...fine...then Vader/Anakin is just a bad guy and being Luke's father is a plot device. But NO, Lucas HAS SAID the story is of Anakin and him being the chosen one. So, there is a reason why he turns bad...and you people just dont get it.

    "Instead of talking about how Return of the Jedi proves that Anakin had to become Vader to bring balance, try to bring up something from Episode 1 to support your theory that Qui Gon was right to train Anakin. Just one, single point. Please.

    You dont like evidence do you? And if you have even read my other posts, I have said stuff from EpI why Qui was right. And the fact that Lucas says the next 2 movies will show stuff which will make EpI more clear...I dont know how much more clearer that gets for you. But you want points...here you go:

    1. Qui sensed that Anakin was the chosen one. He then tested Anakin's midi count and it proves it. Lucas said so himself so if you complain about this point, you really dont know what you are talking about.

    2. The council agreed with Qui in the end, and wanted Anakin to be trained...even though Yoda senses fear...but that doesnt mean Anakin does not bring balance. It actually is a little thing we call forshadowing that Anakin will turn to the darkside.

    3. Us seeing the OT know Anakin becomes Vader. Pretend you havent seen the OT and you dont know. Look at all the forshadowing that Anakin will turn...teaser poster, hint of Imperial March, etc. It is Anakin's fate to begin with. Why would Lucas do stuff like that if not to give the audience hints of his darkness?

    And you are asking why Anakin had to become Vader to bring balance...well...that is the way GL wants it to be. That is the story. You dont like it, just go watch something else. And you cant really say why he HAD to until EpII or III anyways. So it is harder to prove with EpI points. But its all forshadowing...fate.
  13. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    >>>>Lucas said in an interview prior to TPM [...] that it was Anakin's fate to turn to the darkside of the Force.

    I'd be very interested to see that!

    >>>>Everyone here is assuming that Anakin kills hundreds or thousands of Jedi. Who knows if he even kills one? All we know is that he kills Old Ben in ANH.

    What about what Obi Wan says in ANH- "A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil, helped the Empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights."
  14. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    VCT:

    Damn, sorry. I keep forgetting which forum I am in. I edited any spoilers.
  15. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    RandomNerd,

    I am at school. I will look for the mag and quote from it later.

    And when you say Vader hunts down and destroys the Jedi...I cant say much on that in this forum without posting any more spoilers.

    All I can tell you is...GL likes to obvously change things, and how do you know that it isnt another one of Obi's "point of view" lies he keeps telling Luke?

    Lightsabre fights traditionally happen at the end of GL's SW movies. So if this "rumoured" Anakin vs. Obi fight occurs, then how much of Vader do you think we will see...if at all? We wont know till EpIII. So there is a possibility he may not even kill any other Jedi. Palpy and his Empire are probably mostly responsible regardless.

    I would like to get into it more, but I cant say more without posting AOTC spoilers. Sorry.
  16. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    DarthBane93,

    >>>>Why would Lucas make Anakin turn bad you think? If it was the story of Luke Skywalker as the ultimate hero...fine...then Vader/Anakin is just a bad guy and being Luke's father is a plot device. But NO, Lucas HAS SAID the story is of Anakin and him being the chosen one. So, there is a reason why he turns bad...and you people just dont get it.

    I get it fine. It's about the Force, and how it's power can corrupt. The fight between Good and Evil is ultimately an internal one.

    The reason he turns bad is because he is seduced by the power of the Dark Side of the Force, ("Someday I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever") which he would never have been exposed to if it wasn't for Qui Gon's stubbornness on his opinion that he should be trained in the Jedi arts.

    >>>>Qui sensed that Anakin was the chosen one. He then tested Anakin's midi count and it proves it. Lucas said so himself so if you complain about this point, you really dont know what you are talking about.

    Absolutely 100% correct- but doesn't have anything to do with whether he should have been trained.

    >>>>The council agreed with Qui in the end, and wanted Anakin to be trained...even though Yoda senses fear...but that doesnt mean Anakin does not bring balance. It actually is a little thing we call forshadowing that Anakin will turn to the darkside.

    As I have pointed out, the council did everything they could to stop Anakin being trained. Yoda made this explicitly clear. But because of Obi Wans insistence, they couldn't.

    >>>>. Us seeing the OT know Anakin becomes Vader. Pretend you havent seen the OT and you dont know. Look at all the forshadowing that Anakin will turn...teaser poster, hint of Imperial March, etc. It is Anakin's fate to begin with. Why would Lucas do stuff like that if not to give the audience hints of his darkness?

    But without seeing the OT, Darth Vaders shadow on the teaser poster, the imperial march (in a major key) etc. mean nothing!

    There is no hint of darkness in Anakin in TPM. He's depicted VERY clearly as a sweet, selfless, generous little boy.

    Trailers and posters are not canon.

    >>>>That is the story. You dont like it, just go watch something else.

    [face_laugh] "You don't like it?" I love it!!! Try to find something I've posted about something I didn't like in the story- I challenge you!

    >>>>I am at school. I will look for the mag and quote from it later.

    Much appreciated. :)

    >>>>GL likes to obvously change things, and how do you know that it isnt another one of Obi's "point of view" lies he keeps telling Luke?

    Could well be, I guess. We'll see.

    >>>So if this "rumoured" Anakin vs. Obi fight occurs, then how much of Vader do you think we will see...if at all?

    Well, I think we'll see Anakin as Vader before the duel, and Obi Wan will inflict the injuries that leave him sealed in the Vader suit. (I reckon the mask and voice box will start off as a disguise for him to do sith-type stuff anonymously- like Palpatine/Sidious. Then after the battle he'll be stuck that way- with the evil "burnt" into him.)
    Just my speculation though...
  17. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    DarthBane93:

    Oh Geez...

    Yeah, my sentiments exactly.


    Lucas said in an interview prior to TPM, and I have the mag (I will look it up and post it tonight...right now I am at school) that it was Anakin's fate to turn to the darkside of the Force. That is why all the tragic events (edit spoiler, him getting separated from Shimi, council's initial decision to reject Anakin, Qui dying, etc etc) happened. It all led him to feel the way he did and to eventually make that choice.

    OK, stop right there. I'm giving you 12 hours to post the article. After that, if you haven't backed it up, you will be denounced by everyone. I swear I will hunt you down if you have lied to us again.

  18. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Quote:
    "As I have pointed out, the council did everything they could to stop Anakin being trained. Yoda made this explicitly clear. But because of Obi Wans insistence, they couldn't."


    Then you incorrectly pointed it out. Yoda said that the council agreed with Obi Wan. So what's more likely, that the council didn't really agree, and Yoda was speaking for them because he caved under a threat from a newbie Jedi or that Yoda was telling he truth and the council agreed that Anakin was to be trained?

    It's a shame when you have to explain very clearly spoken (if grammatically backwards) lines of dialogue.
  19. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    While I am still not at home, what are you going to do to me TJ?

    I will look up the mag, and if I am correct, I will post it. If not, I will admit it...unlike you.
  20. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    You have 10 hours and 34 minutes left. I suggest you use them wisely. :p
  21. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Insecurity suits you well TJ.
  22. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    Evading of the issue suits you well, DarthBane93. :)
  23. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    You still havent explained what you are going to do to me? You are threatening me...what are you going to do, whether I am right or wrong.
  24. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Posting the article will do you no good. TJ will just say that Lucas was crazy and senile* at the the time.

    :p
  25. DarthBane93 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 1999
    star 4
    Good point PB. It is a waste of my time to even bother talking to TJ.

    TJ, as it stands, I take back my comment then on "it was Anakin's fate to turn". That is not official. If I can find the article, i will post it, if not, then its not. Goodbye.
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