Saga Qui-Gon's philosophy

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Point_Of_View, Aug 6, 2017.

  1. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

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    From almost the very first scene of TPM we are shown an ideological split between Yoda and Qui-Gon.
    Qui-Gon is shown correcting Obi Wan about Yoda's advice saying that while the future is important, the present moment is more important than Yoda thinks.

    This is the basis of the trilogy and the saga.

    Yoda considers the future enough of a deciding factor to deny Anakin. ("Clouded this boy's future is.)
    Qui Gon does not. ("His fate is uncertain, he's not dangerous")
    This continues in AotC when Yoda and the Jedi can no longer peer into the future. Yoda is very shaken by this because he places so much import on the future. In my opinion, this is a big reason for the Jedi order falling. They had become too removed from reality in many ways. It is no coincidence that their headquarters is a palace in the capital of the galactic government.

    Qui Gon seems more in tune with the force than the other Jedi.
    While they all follow "code", he doesn't, even at the expense of a seat on the council.
    He frees a little slave boy on what he believes to be the will of the force, code be damned. Age be damned.

    And that's not all, but it's a primer.

    I'm relatively new to this site, is what I've laid out generally known?
    Is it considered valid, or bunk?
    To me there seems to be a clear subtext here on George's part.
  2. Master Endz-One Jedi Youngling

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    Another difference is that he doesn't agree with all of the Council's rules and the following of the Senate at times. Qui-Gon is definitely his own man and his philosophy is closer to the Grey than most, due to this less clouded than the Jedi.
  3. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

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    What do you mean by "grey"?
    I think Qui Gon was more in tune with the will of the force than the rest of the order.
  4. Master Endz-One Jedi Youngling

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    Similar to the Legends Character Jolee Bindu or the Bendu from Rebels. I do agree he's more in tune with the present time, it shows with him teaching Yoda and Obi-Wan how to become one with the force. What my point is Qui-Gon had more philosophy differences with the Counsel than the force, he also had differences in decisions the Counsel makes as a whole.
  5. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    Yeah, Qui-Gon's philosophy is pretty similar to the one Luke eventually has at the end of ROTJ, seemingly signified by the fact that he is the first among the Jedi to learn how to become a ghost; as well as being the only one who was certain Anakin was the Chosen One; he was much more attuned to the will of the Force than the others.
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  6. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

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    "His fate is uncertain, he's not dangerous."

    Was Qui-Gon right?
    Think about nature. Qui-Gon follows the will of the force over the Jedi code.
    Nature can be cruel. Nature can bring things back to equilibrium with cleansing disasters.

    What if the Chosen One was destined to cleanse the force of not only the Sith, but of an order that had lost its way?

    Further evidence of this being GL's intent comes from his student film "6-18-67".
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  7. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

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    Jul 7, 2009
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    No. He didn't correct Yoda. He clarified Obi-Wan regarding Yoda's advice.

    "Keep your concentration here and now where it belongs."

    "But Master Yoda said I should be mindful of the future."

    "But not at the expense of the moment. Be mindful of the living Force, young Padawan."

    In other words, he's clarifying to Obi-Wan that Yoda's advice to be mindful of the future doesn't imply disregarding the present. Obi-Wan was doing that and Yoda never said he should.

    Yoda doesn't place "so much importance" in the future. He simply doesn't disregard it and wisely takes the possible futures into account. And he's worried because the fact that the Jedi can't foresee anymore is a sign of the dark side rising and bringing the Force out of balance. It's not good.

    How are they removed from reality? What reality? The Jedi fell because the Sith killed them. They used the dark side to blind the Jedi and exploit the fragilities of the Republic.

    I don't understand the relevancy of the Jedi Temple's location to your argument.

    They didn't lost their way. And balance of the Force doesn't require the end of the Jedi. The end of the Jedi Order only helped leave the Force into more darkness. Balance requires the end of the Sith because it's the Sith who are exploiting the dark side and in doing so bring imbalance to the Force.
    Last edited by Alexrd, Aug 8, 2017
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  8. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

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    Nah, my analysis is correct.
    Qui-Gon is the only one who follows the will of the force over the code.
    Yoda and the Jedi are out of touch.
    Think about two things
    1. The prophesy. Qui-Gon puts stock in ancient predictions. The rest of the Jedi don't. They have become disconnected from the path of the force and have become bureaucratic. Their headquarters is far away from the downtrodden worlds like Tatooine and is right next to the seat of a government that has also lost its way.
    2. Yoda's advice to Anakin in RotS. He's right in a vacuum, but he fails to see the depth and immediacy of Anakin's problem.
    Yoda is nothing but a hallmark card handing out platitudes. He is disconnected from the moment.
  9. Outsourced Jedi Knight

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    @Point_Of_View

    Not really adding anything, but your argument would hold more weight if you addressed his points directly, instead of saying, "No, I'm right, and here are some reasons why."
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  10. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

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    ?
    I am answering his points. I'm just not formatting it like he did.
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  11. Master Endz-One Jedi Youngling

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    I believe the Jedi did lose their way, when they became Generals in a war and servents of a corrupt Republic instead of peace keepers to the Galaxy
  12. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

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    To add to my point, the RotS deleted scene where Yoda says "your apprentice I gratefully become" to Qui-Gon also evidences GL's thoughts.
    Last edited by Point_Of_View, Aug 8, 2017
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  13. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

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    Another thought I had.

    In this new context, Yoda's dialogue to Luke about his mind "never being on where he was, what he was doing" and always looking to the future takes on new meaning.
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  14. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

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    Saying so doesn't make it so. You're free to support your statements.

    False. Here are the facts:

    Qui-Gon believed in the prophecy and that Anakin was the chosen one.
    The Jedi believed in the prophecy but they don't know wether Anakin is the chosen one or not.
    The Jedi are wary of training someone as old as Anakin, considering the fear and attachment he's already developed.
    Qui-Gon is willing to take the risk (which is considerable), no matter the cost.

    Where's the bureaucracy?

    Their headquarters (a place of meditation, training and research) are in the capital of the Republic. The democratic system that gives them jurisdiction to act as guardians of the peace and justice. Tatooine and similar worlds are not within Republic jurisdiction. They are controlled by the Hutt clan.

    Yoda's advice was rightful. Anakin as a Jedi needs to let go of attachment and be selfless. Instead of greedy and selfish. Not to mention that Anakin was not honest with him and the remaining Jedi. Had he chosen to follow the Jedi way, he wouldn't be in the situation he was in.

    No evidence to back that up either.

    The fact that there is corruption in the Republic doesn't make everyone in it corrupt, nor does it make it not worth serving a democracy. The Jedi became generals to help end the war, instead of staying in the sidelines and do nothing while watching the democracy and the people they swore to protect be attacked.

    What thoughts? What does that got to do with the argument you quoted?
    Last edited by Alexrd, Aug 9, 2017
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  15. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    @Alexrd, there's a lot to address here:

    - The Jedi ARE removed from reality; clearly; they were somehow unaware that the whole Republic could be turned against them on the completely false accusation of them attempting a coup. Perhaps they should have spent a bit more time winning over public support than winning a war for people who didn't trust or like them.

    - The location of the temple is very important. The marriage of politics/religion undeniably leads to corruption. While the Jedi claim they are selfless and devote themselves to resisting the corruption of the dark side, their temple is smack dab in the heart of the galactic capital of political corruption.

    -The bureaucracy is shown quite plainly in them sending Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan alone to confront a Sith Lord, instead of openly standing together and sending multiple Jedi Masters to assist. It was a poor effort to hide the fact that the Jedi were involved in an unsanctioned "conflict." Then in AOTC they wait for Senate approval to go to Geonosis to save Obi-Wan instead of going IMMEDIATELY.

    -Yoda's advice to Anakin was in one word: terrible. Anakin has been trained as a Jedi since childhood, certainly he was aware of that danger of attachment/fear of loss. The last thing he obviously needed was Yoda repeating it to him. Yoda need to take a different approach. This is one of the basics of being a teacher, not all students learn the same. Not to mention at the end of the conversation Anakin practically says "no thanks, I'm not going to give up this attachment I'll do anything to keep it" And Yoda still does nothing!

    - Serving the corrupt, makes you corrupt.

    - Yoda becoming Qui-Gon's "apprentice" signifies Qui-Gon was more in touch with the Force than he was.
  16. Master Endz-One Jedi Youngling

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    The fact that there is corruption in the Republic doesn't make everyone in it corrupt, nor does it make it not worth serving a democracy. The Jedi became generals to help end the war, instead of staying in the sidelines and do nothing while watching the democracy and the people they swore to protect be attacked.

    If you're being sent on missions to protect a corrupt government, then you are part of the problem. They unknowingly following and helped a Sith Lord gain ultimate power, all because he was Chancellor of the Republic. They let a Republic Chancellor/Sith Lord dictate who to put on their Counsel. They Republic already had a Clone Army and the Jedi had no Milatary experience, the should have not been in the War and put their efforts on fighting the Sith. The war distracted the Jedi from becoming more in tune with the force , especially at the time they needed it the most. Jedi killed more than protecting in the War.
  17. Alexrd Jedi Grand Master

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    How exactly would that false accusation be proven?

    The Jedi are not in the businness of pandering. They are in the business of justice and peacekeeping. And who didn't trust or like the Jedi? I'm sure there were some people who didn't like them, but the fact that the citizens of the Republic chose the Jedi as their justice and peacekeeping corps implies approval.

    Indeed, it is.

    The Jedi are not religion and they don't serve the Republic on religious grounds. They don't enforce their beliefs on others nor does the Republic. Their 'contract' is judicial.

    Again: The Temple is in the capital of the Republic, the democratic system that allowed them to serve and keepers of peace and justice within it. It makes no sense for it to be anywhere else. You don't put the police headquarters in the middle of nowhere.

    What makes you think multiple Jedi Masters were available to assist them? What makes you think Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were not enough? The galaxy doesn't stop just because the events we see in the movies are happening. And they didn't send them to confront a Sith Lord. They don't know wether he was a Sith Lord or not.

    What was?

    The point was to go to Geonosis and (not to) save Obi-Wan. And it would make no sense to go before knowing that the Republic had approved the use of the army.

    If he was aware he would already know what he should do. But he doesn't want to do it. It's only natural that Yoda would reinforce the Jedi way. Which had he followed, he wouldn't be in/cause so much pain and suffering.

    The fact is that he must let go of his fear, attachment and greed. He decides not to do it. That's his choice and his responsibility. Not Yoda's. Yoda did the right thing. It was up to Anakin to follow his advice.

    Yoda reinforces the point that death is natural and you can't prevent someone from eventually dying. Trying to control life like that is nothing but greed.

    The Republic is not corrupt even though there are corrupt people in it.

    No, it signifies that he learned an ability that Yoda didn't know and was willing to learn.
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  18. Nehru_Amidala Jedi Master

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    Can I use these ideas in my fanfiction? I promise to give credit to the original posters.
  19. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

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    It is why I like what Lucas did with the PT. Others trying to convince *us* this wasn't his intent only hurts my view of Lucas.
  20. Martoto77 Jedi Master

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    If that's what Lucas was trying to do with the PT then that's what I too like, among other things, about the PT.

    Among other things, Lucas was and is critical of the hippy attitude of "letting go" as the solution to all problems. It seems perverse for him to condemn a whole galaxy because one extremely troubled teenager couldn't let go of the traumatic experiences he's had under the circumstances.
    Last edited by Martoto77, Aug 9, 2017
  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    - Exactly. The WHOLE galaxy turned against them by an unproven accusation. How out of touch did they have to be not to realize that the public hated them that much?

    - The people of the galaxy chose the Jedi as their peacekeepers the same way blacks in the US "chose" white racist cops to be their "peacekeepers" i.e. THEY DIDN'T.

    - The Jedi don't hold court. They have no judicial role in the Republic. Their diplomats and space cops.

    - The location of the temple then spells out the Jedi's main role: to serve the (corrupt) Republic. Do not feign then that they also prioritized serving the will of the Force. You cannot serve two masters. In the old-canon KOTOR the Jedi Council sat out of the Mandolorian Wars because the future was clouded, this would have been the right decision for the Clone Wars as well.

    - "This is the key to unraveling the mystery of the Sith" seemed like Mace was pretty confident that this person was a Sith Lord. Multiple masters were available to assist because..they were sitting in chairs chilling out. They certainly were available to help when it came to the Senate ordering them to save Obi-Wan on Geonosis....interesting...

    - It would make sense to go and stand beside your brethren, you know, do what's right.

    - Yoda's responsibility as a teacher is to use the best means necessary to teach his students. He didn't do that. Idunno, he was in charge of the Jedi Order and they all got wiped out so..maybe he made a mistake or two over the last 900 years.

    - Anakin refused to let go of attachment. And Yoda did nothing to address it. In fact, Yoda sent him on a secret mission to spy on his best friend instead of helping him.

    - Tomatoe tomato. So the leader of the Republic is evil and corporations can invade sovereign worlds unchecked but the Republic isn't corrupt. Okay. Sure.

    - Yoda learned from Qui-Gon. Yoda became his student.
    Last edited by The Supreme Chancellor, Aug 9, 2017
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  22. Point_Of_View Jedi Padawan

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    @Alexrd
    As to the issue of the code, Qui-Gon doesn't follow it when it conflicts with what he believes to be the will of the force.
    The Jedi have become entangled in a system of rules that serve only to separate them from the will of the force.
  23. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master

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    Word. The Will of the Force and the ambitions of the Republic Senate are at worst in direct conflict and at best not identical.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    The Jedi are aware that their actions could backfire on them. That was why Yoda said that removing Palpatine from office was, "a dark place that this line of thought will carry us."

    Which doesn't mean a whole lot.

    Because the Jedi are not mavericks who do as they wish. They follow the rule of law and work with the Senate, instead of on their own. The Sith kinda ruined things a long time ago, by thinking along those very lines.

    There is no other approach. He had the training and the knowledge, he just lacked the mental discipline. He wanted the quick and easy solution, not the hard and difficult approach.

    Not really, unless you blindly follow orders..


    No, it just meant that he was ready to learn how to be a ghost.

    Uh, the whole galaxy turned on them? How do we know this? We only see the Senate applaud Palpatine's putting down the insurrection. That doesn't mean that everyone else turned on the Jedi and hated them. We only know that there were those who were displeased at them for starting the war.

    [IMG]

    How do we know that they didn't choose? The Republic got rid of their military and put their faith in the Jedi.

    No one said otherwise.

    Didn't the Jedi get involved anyway?

    No, it meant that Mace felt that if the mysterious attacker was a Sith, he would be there and they would find out for certain if he was a Sith, or a wannabe. Two Jedi were sufficient to deal with one or the other. The 212 Jedi who went to Geonosis were the only ones who were at the Temple. The rest of the ten thousand Jedi were elsewhere and went to Geonosis to stop the impending attack on Coruscant.

    He did use the best means to teach Anakin. It is not the fault of the teacher if the student fails to listen, or follow direction.

    There is nothing Yoda can do. It is up to Anakin to decide if he wants to follow the Jedi path, or not. The same way that he couldn't make Luke choose to stay on Dagobah, or go. To face Vader or not. To be a Jedi or be a Sith. That's why being a Jedi is about self-discipline. Nobody can force you to do it. Luke had to decide if he wanted to be a Jedi or not and he chose to be a Jedi. Anakin had to make that same choice.
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  25. Jo Lucas Jedi Knight

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    Aug 28, 2015
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    I think this is the main motif surrounding his character. He is a "pigheaded" Jedi knight who follows his instincts rather than codes and standards. This is cool, but unfortunaly he wasn't very well written, couldn't connect very well with Qui-Gon.

    People who do "prequel rewrites" always tend to remove his character from the plot and use only Obi-wan, but I've come to the conclusion that this is not right. GL was right by creating two jedi knights so they could have different personalities.

    Anyway Qui is my favorite Jedi ever and Liam did a great job portraying him.