Saga Qui-Gon's philosophy

I wish people who make this argument would set aside the fact that they personally are fans of Ahsoka and actually think it through. If someone here in the real world is on the police force and becomes a suspect in a terrorist attack, her fellow cops and her friends that are judges and whatever else do not get to say "oh, there won't be an investigation and we don't need to work this out in a court of law, she's our friend and we just know she'd never do a bad thing so it's fine and we're gonna ignore her." The public would rightly be enraged, because that is completely over-the-top corrupt. It doesn't suddenly become okay because we-the-audience know she's being framed and expect characters to just know everything and be right all the time. If you need characters to never make mistakes or you get furious and hold it against them, then a story that's a tragedy is possibly not the story for you.

Also, Filoni confirmed in a post-season interview that even the Council members that voted "against" her (everyone but Plo, Obi-Wan, and probably Yoda) were only agreeing there was enough evidence to warrant properly going through the judicial system (remember this is post-Dooku and post-Krell, they know for a fact that you can't just assume no Jedi would ever do a bad thing), and that if she really were innocent it would surely all work out. They did not expect Tarkin and Palpatine would hijack the whole thing, simply stop investigating, and make a high-speed circus out of the Republic courts. They were still being good cops in a system slowly going bad around them, that's kind of the whole story.

(And before anyone tries to bring up the "but she wasn't on-planet at the time!" argument yet again, if you actually remember the story instead of just going off of half-memories and fandom outrage you should remember that it was specifically discovered that simply being off-planet when the bomb went off was no longer a sufficient alibi, because of how the attack was set up.)

EDIT: Also I would love for the mods to filter "Ashoka" to read "Ahsoka."

 

Palpatine had been given control over the Jedi at that point. Palpatine wasn't requesting the Jedi Council take Anakin, he appointed him. Saying "no" would have meant taking my option 2: resign from the Republic. In hindsight, that probably would have given the Jedi the best shot at survival, but I don't think it's a slam dunk case that it would have solved their problems. It would still have been all too easy to paint them as traitors and hunt them down.

Option 2 again. The big picture question, though, is whether or not the Jedi would be more effective as a sanctioned arm of Republic law enforcement/military/diplomatic services, or as an independent militia of monks with no resources, authority, or jurisdiction. Without the benefit of hindsight, that choice doesn't look so easy. And as far as following the will of the Force ... you say that like it's easy and unambiguous. What was the will of the Force when the Clone Wars broke out? Don't you think the Jedi were desperately trying to figure that out?

You'll forgive me if I don't just accept Vader's perspective on that. His point of view by that time was a trifle warped, I think.

Luke didn't join the Republic ... as what? The Jedi Order at that point was one guy. He couldn't have filled the role of the Jedi Order even if he'd wanted to. It's a leap to look at Luke's role or lack thereof in the New Republic as some sort of conscious criticism of the old Order. It would take generations before the Jedi Order was built up enough to take on such a massive role again. It's also worth remembering that Luke's new Jedi were still wiped out, despite their lack of role in political affairs. Independence =/= safety.

And I assume he went looking for the first Jedi temple because a.) he'd already had 20+ years to explore the Temple on Coruscant and b.) Coruscant is not a very good place to get away from the hustle and bustle of galactic life.

"Stay out of the War and search for the Sith." Interesting suggestion. Where should they look? Maybe start where they already knew the Sith were involved: the Separatists. Of course, then they'd have to work against the Separatists without getting involved with the war ... but, y'know ... details, details. And I'm sure the Jedi would appreciate your advice to concentrate on the Force and watch the movements of the Sith with a clear head. I'll bet Yoda is slapping his big green ghostly forehead right now and saying "Why think of that, didn't I?"

And they could have kept the Republic out of Jedi affairs, but only by keeping the Jedi out of Republic affairs. Option 2 beckons ... but only if you don't think about the consequences of that decision. The Jedi aren't the freaking Avengers, they aren't superheroes. They uphold the law and work to promote peace and justice. That's their mission, their reason for being. Official sanction, support, jurisdiction ... incredibly valuable if you're a group of about 10,000 people trying to hold together a civilization with thousands upon thousands of star systems. How receptive do you think the Republic would have been to vigilantes barging into trade negotiations and other interplanetary disputes?

Look, the Jedi attachment to the Republic was absolutely manipulated to cause their downfall. But it was also an incredibly valuable relationship for the Jedi themselves. The Order was the dominant group of Force users in the galaxy for thousands of years. As the new canon has been showing us since TCW, there were lots of others, sprinkled throughout the galaxy, but they mostly just languished in obscurity. I believe that without the support and sanction of the Republic, the Jedi would have just been another small band of eccentric monks. They might have escaped destruction that way, but only because they wouldn't have been worth destroying. And the thousand years of peace that they helped make possible before the Sith brought it all crashing down might have never happened.

But my friend, the Jedi Council should have KNOWN that Ahsoka is one of the Main Characters in this story, and therefore could never have committed such a heinous act. It should have been obvious to them that one of the Main Characters was clearly framed by a less-beloved Supporting Character ... this would have undoubtedly lead them straight to Barriss.

Stupid Council.

 

We do know that a Jedi padawan by definition has less skill than a Jedi Master; and is of substantially less help. Heck, we know that in any fight the more people you have on your side, the better.

No, killing someone doesn't mean turning to the dark side. Anakin turned to the dark side to save Padme. Not because Mace Windu was going to kill Palpatine. Once Mace was dead, he had to still wait and consider his options.

So no, it's not true.

But he wasn't. All the evidence pointed to Maul being a Sith.

Maul didn't say he was a Sith. In fact he didn't say anything at all to the Jedi.

Ventress, who was a deadly combatant and should also should be confronted with multiple Jedi. Her not being a Sith Lord means nothing. Stop moving the goal post.

The Jedi should have sent help to assist Qui-Gon confronting a Sith Lord. They didn't to preserve their hidden interference in the conflict. It was selfish and stupid.

And?

Yes, different people act differently. Anakin chose the dark side and Luke did not. I can't believe I have to explain this to you..

No. They were in the same room. They were sitting face to face. It's in ROTS, at the 32min mark.

 

This is why I loathe the "Jedi should have been total vigilantes in the days of the Republic" argument. Vigilante fantasy only works within the conceits of actual vigilante fantasy stories like DC/Marvel Comics. In a story like PT-era Star Wars, all those senators and planetary governments are far, far more like to say "uh excuse me, so you're a bunch of people with superpowers that don't answer to any real person that us lowly mortals can contact if there's a problem with whatever you've just decided on your own you should do? Thanks but no thanks, please stay off our planet."

At that point the Jedi would be left with two options.

1. "Okay, we will respect your right to govern yourselves and stay away." Well good job, now the Jedi are completely ineffective because it turns out people don't actually like having wild card all-powerful vigilantes acting up in the streets and making a mess of things for the rightful authorities.

2. "Too bad, we answer only to the Force and not little people like you, and we have the power to do whatever we want and make the galaxy How It Should Be and you don't get a say because we're strong and we know better and our authority is greater than yours. Neener neener." Congratulations on taking your first steps towards the Dark Side!

If you have to have Jedi acting kinda like vigilantes, that's what SW Rebels is for, because the Empire actually cannot be worked with and is actively trampling on its own citizens. But vigilantes are not something the Jedi should be forever, because once the "little people" with no superpowers are back to governing themselves they're going to want the space wizards to respect that. To work with the system, once it can be worked with again.

"I don't have to listen to you! I'm in the right and I'm gonna do what I want!" loose cannon fantasies just don't appeal to me anymore, I guess. That's really just fantasizing about the easy path - and SW isn't about taking the easy path.

Those fools! Clearly this warrants the death penalty.

 

All is see from you are excuses and hypothetical scenarios of what you think could have happened. The Jedi Order shares responsibility no if ands or buts about it. How can you concentrate on the Sith if you're fighting a War, you're too busy fighting an enemy. Dooku wasn't leading all the battles Grevious was. Yes Dooku was behind the scenes, but he wasn't leading battles. The Jedi could have helped the Republic behind the scenes and try to fight the Sith, but fighting a war for them only blinded them. If you feel the Jedi always made the right decisions, you are sadly mistaken. The Jedi used to handle discipline within it's order, much like the Military ( in real life has it's own Judicial System ). I guess to some Jedi are perfect, it's only the situations they were put in that caused all their mistakes.

 

I didn't see that comment as disrespectful.

 

This was also explained in the story. The attack did not just kill Jedi, it killed Republic civilians and Republic military personnel and the Republic ultimately had jurisdiction - and a strong preference that the main suspect not be tried internally by her Jedi buddies for the mass murder of Republic citizens and troops. This is not unreasonable.

If they had actually been able to capture Krell and bring him in, the Republic would have wanted him for trial too.

 

I need to watch it again, but I always thought the Jedi shouldn't be involved with Republic Poliics and the Clone Wars. I don't dispute the knowledge you gave me, I don't remember everything from those episodes and haven't read the book Ahsoka yet, but I did remember Tarkin ( possibly Palpatine too, I don't remember) trying to stack the deck against Ahsoka. I feel the Jedi for the most part didn't support Ahsoka. In order for me to say anything else on this subject I have to watch Clone Wars again and/or Ahsoka.

 

While Qui-gon was arguably more in tune with the Force than the other Jedi, he was not perfect:

"GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The Phantom Menace refers to the force of the dark side of the Universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader - also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction, and Qui-Gonn are correct - Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor." - CUT magazine interview - http://www.sevaan.com/starwars/news/archives/1999/august99.shtml

If it was the Will of the Force for Qui-gon to take Anakin away, then he needn't have manipulated Watto's die.

Yes, but Yoda does sound more like Qui-gon in ESB:

YODA
This one a long time have I watched.
All his life has he looked away...
to the future, to the horizon.
Never his mind on where he was.
Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph.
Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh!
A Jedi craves not these things.

This used to be on the Star Wars databank: "The dark side, for all its power, is ultimately hard to detect when required. A shadowy master like Darth Sidious was able to keep his presence a secret, even when sharing a world with the Jedi Temple." - http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thesith

Regardless, if the Jedi can't sense the immense Dark Side field around Palpatine, how are they supposed to sense it around Anakin?

Agreed. It wasn't until Luke was willing to put his all his faith in the Force, at the expense of his own life, that he was able to help Anakin fulfill his destiny.

MOYERS: Ultimately, isn't Star Wars about transformation?

LUCAS: It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son. But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very end. And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"--that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.

MOYERS: In authentic religion, doesn't it take Kierkegaard's leap of faith?

Luke showed a similar "Leap of Faith" in ESB. Vader's mistake was telling Luke that the Emperor foresaw Luke destroying him. Up until that point, Luke believed he was stuck between joining Vader and falling down the abyss. Hearing Vader's words, he realizes there's a possibility he could survive the fall. Vader keeps trying to convince Luke that there's only one way, but you can see the change of confidence in Luke's face as he lets go.



This is why there was such an uproar when Lucas later added Luke's scream as he fell. Luke wasn't scared at that point...he'd put his faith into the Force when it mattered most, and was rewarded for that faith. Ultimately, the scream was (thankfully) removed in Lucas' final version.

 

Let's be honest. That wasn't why people complained about the scream. If that many people "got" Star Wars that much, there wouldn't be people who only like 1/2 the saga.

People didn't like the scream simply because it was seen as cheesy.
Also freefalling is terrifying no matter how many epiphanies one has just had.

As for Watto's die, that doesn't say anything about the will of the force. Maybe the force placed a Jedi there who could counter cheat on purpose.

 

It was cheesy...but it also conflicted with Luke's choice.

As to Watto's die, according to Lucas, it was a dangerous choice. I'll take his opinion over yours.

 

Uh, your post had nothing about Lucas's opinion on the die.
And regardless, dangerous does not mean that it's not the will of the force.

Also, maybe not a scream, but the falling part of that scene in Empire is a little limp. The music could be more engaging/moving. It's a little flat.

 

Should Anakin have been trained?

"GL: I think it is obvious that he was wrong in Episode 1 and made a dangerous decision...

Uh, the die was part of Qui-gon's choice to bring Anakin back to the Jedi for training. Had he truly believed in the will of the Force, he wouldn't have needed to manipulate the die.

 

That's not what that quote says....

 

Okee-dokee

 

When Lucas says that Qui-gon was wrong, he wasn't referring to fixing the fixed chance cube. He's referring to Anakin being taken from his mother wouldn't have long term consequences. That his clouded future meant that he could become a problem. He was wrong to take him at the age that he was at, but he was also right because he was the Chosen One and he does fulfill his destiny. He just did things terrible things along the way.

 

You guys are a tad too focused on the cube.

 

In my headcanon, that "chance" cube was a loaded die. Watto was so sure that he'd win the roll, and so surprised when he lost, that I can't believe he was playing it honestly. Qui-gon saw through Watto's cheating and taught him a lesson.

 

I like this. It's the only way it makes sense.

I'm now "borrowing" your headcanon for this scene

 

It doesn't need to be a loaded die. The cheating on Qui-Gon's part is to free an enslaved family.

 

Watto is a gambler and many gamblers have a tendency to cheat. Watto is no different in this regard.

 

I agree 100%, Qui-Gon had a different philosophy than the Jedi and willing to use the force for the greater good of the force.


Look at all the philosophies of this Jedi line.

Dooku
Qui-Gon
Obi-Wan
Anakin
Luke

All disagreed with Jedi principles at one time or another. All were seen as reckless adventure seekers. All were willing to bend the rules. All had a distrust for Politicians.

I think all these Jedi had great philosophies. Dooku is very underated, he helped build the foundation for this line of Jedi.

 

I don't think it's so much about the future in itself, or that's just one expression of the underlying difference, what's more basic is that Yoda is cautious to the point of fearfulness while Qui-Gon has too little caution to the point of recklessness. Then by the OT Yoda develops a relatively better balanced attitude, pretty cautious without much fear, at least he directly expresses that even doing well won't guarantee you the future you want.

It's not very clear what not following the code means but yeah, Qui-Gon seems to be more into acknowledging and valuing emotions and relationships and while Vader did show how those could be taken to excess, Yoda and Obi-Wan may have admitted they went too far the other way (and therefore decided to have Luke and Leia raised by families). And then Luke brings his own interpretation and become a different, perhaps the best, kind of Jedi.

 

I basically meant that Qui-Gon goes with the flow as opposed to letting every little rule the Jedi have stifle him.