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PT R2 and Anakin on Mustafar

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by AndrewPascoe, Feb 21, 2018.

  1. AndrewPascoe

    AndrewPascoe Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 26, 2014
    Apologies in advance this is a literal spitball post so if I ramble I’m sorry.

    I watched ROTS last night for the umpteenth time and for the first time I realized that outside of the opening R2 and Anakin don’t spend anytime together.

    Throughout the OT, PT and TCW our favourite astromech has followed our protagonists around through their highs and lows. it’s been said that Artoo acts almost like a narrator who has recorded these grand events in history across the GFFA. Both Artoo and Anakin care deeply about one another and it’s a fantastic friendship.

    I understand that pacing is critical at the climax of this film but I feel that we we’re cheated slightly to not see the affect on Artoo after only seeing Obi-Wan return to the Naboo cruiser. At this stage of the story Artoo and Anakin were almost inseparable bth going above and beyond to help one another especially during TCW.

    I would’ve loved to see an almost defeated/dejected/confused Artoo on the landing platform unsure whether to board and leave with Kenobi or stay and find his master. It just felt a little off I guess that after years being side by side someone who genuinely cared deeply about the astromech, he just trundles along with Kenobi as if it meant nothing.

    Then I got thinking about what if Artoo had stayed to find Anakin on that lava bank out of friendship. To be with his master in his final hours, minutes whatever. Would he have gone with the Emperor and then stuck with Vader and...down the rabbit hole my mind went.

    TLDR - I would’ve loved to have seen the impact of Anakin’s “death” on Mustafar had on Artoo.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Kind of makes a mockery of "R2 tells the story" theory that gets bandied about so often.
     
  3. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Yeah, not seeing R2 reaction to a certain thing "mocks" the fact that R2 follows a main character throughout the central narrative in the six movies... :rolleyes:

    Trying too hard...?
     
  4. wobbits

    wobbits Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 12, 2017
    I understand part of what you are saying because the droids were portrayed as being almost human like in their feelings and interactions BUT I never placed any concern for how they viewed what happened to Anakin. I think it was more important to see the affect it had on the human/Jedi characters (Obi Wan, Padme, Yoda, etc)
     
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  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Well it looks like you're not trying hard enough to read. "It's R2's story" and "R2 tells the story" gets bandied about. R2 just being close to at least one central character in the saga does not make it his story or him telling the story. That's a fact. So the oft repeated platitude that it is his story or that he tells the story, is mocked by the actual state of affairs in the movies.

    And platitudes are meant to be mocked. If it was oft said that R2 features as the companion to one of the central characters in the scenes of each movie (which he doesn't) then it would not attract or deserve mockery.

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  6. AndrewPascoe

    AndrewPascoe Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 26, 2014
    Oh yeah I absolutely agree that in real life George had to make directorial decisions about what was actually required to fulfill the climax and keep pacing and all those things and so the focus was kept on our human cast.

    I just thought if I could add a scene I’d have maybe just thought have R2 on the platform sort of swivel his door back and forth as if weighing his options for a few seconds. Then I got carried away thinking of all the Infinities that could result from R2 staying with Anakin past Mustafar.

    I love what if scenarios.
     
  7. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    No, "platitudes" are not meant to be mocked (and definitely not by non sequiturs like not showing R2's reaction to Anakin's absence), nor is one supposed to be pedantic about them (that virtually everyone gets it is a sign of that). It just shows that one is deliberately missing the point. But then again, that's not a problem of those that make the original claim.
     
  8. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    R2 simply being a passenger on Anakin's fighter between Coruscant and the Mustafar landing pad is only one example that refutes the notion that the saga is R2's story or is told by R2. I'm sorry I didn't exhaustively go off topic and cite all the other things across the entire saga that refute it.

    What is the point of saying that it's R2's story or it's told by R2 when it's demonstrably untrue? Because it's one of those trite platitudes that people like to repeat in lieu of any meaningful analysis. The fact that it's a meaningless platitude is precisely the problem of those that make that claim. What the OP is suggesting is one possible way that the notion of R2 being the storyteller might be better supported than it is (should one feell that it is necessary or desirable for the whole saga to be told by R2). So it's not a non-sequitur either.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  9. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    I think we might have already seen R2’s reaction. When Anakin first lands on Mustafar, R2 trundles after him like, “Yeah! Off to another adventure!” before Anakin sharply tells him to stay with the ship. We get a few seconds of him beeping uncertainly, as if he’s going, “Wait...what?” This isn’t like the Anakin he remembered.

    We also have to assume he was watching the whole Anakin-Padme argument that ended with a Force Choke, Anakin yelling at Obi-Wan before violently attacking him. In his mind, this...isn’t Anakin. This isn’t the guy he remembered. Anakin Skywalker would never attack his own wife, his own best friend. He would never rant about ruling the galaxy as an emperor, etc. So it’s possible he figured the best course of action would be to stick with the people he’s more familiar with, the people he can more readily trust.
     
  10. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Agreed, I remember this being discussed in '05.

    There are actually three moments that kind of chain, that can be overlooked.

    That whirring beep on Mustafar to me seems like Anakin isn't giving off his familiar aura from Artoo's point of view.
    Also, remember at Padme's apartment (before Anakin and Artoo leave for Mustafar) - Artoo says something and Threepio replies "Well he is under a lot stress Artoo."
    Clearly Artoo already suspects something.

    Then after Anakin's immolation, Artoo following Obi-Wan is like an omen. Anakin is gone from Artoo's perspective, there is no one to wait for.

    So I would argue R2-D2 as a narrator is still a present thing in ROTS, it's just done fairly subtlely.
     
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  11. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    Plus, there is a little link to the start of the film - a contrast between Vader's cold "Artoo. Stay with the ship." and Anakin's warm request that he does the same on the Invisible hand.
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Note that in ROTS, when Anakin and Padme are discussing the Temple raid, Artoo is trying to tell Threepio something about Anakin. That he doesn't seem like himself and Threepio chalks it up to stress. It seems that he is aware of something being off about him.

    Both droids were witness to Anakin's behavior on the landing platform. What is missing was a scene where Threepio and Artoo realize that Padme's in bad shape and that they need to help her. Because of this, Artoo knows that he cannot be with Anakin anymore. This why there is no objection when Obi-wan returns alone.
     
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    @AndrewPascoe interesting take; but remember Palpatine wanted Vader to destroy everything that had to do with Anakin Skywalker, including any sentimental objects like a droid. It would have been hard to make sense of Artoo leaving with the Sith and then somehow ending up with the Rebellion 20 years later.

    I think the reduction in screen time for the droids is part of the darker theme of ROTS. Artoo's relationship with Anakin is highlighted in the assault on Greivous' ship; and there isn't much to add from there. The novelization gives pretty good insight into how Artoo now feels isolated from Anakin when they shortly stop to visit Padme before leaving for Mustafar.
     
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  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    But no one ever claimed that Star Wars is "R2's [sic] story." I believe George Lucas did once suggest that the source material for the films came from Artoo relating the story to a Shaman of the Whills a hundred years after the events of the saga, the logic being that Artoo was the only one present for everything. Note this doesn't mean he was literally present in every scene. The fact that Artoo wasn't physically with Han and Leia when they were fleeing from the Empire in TESB doesn't mean he wasn't made aware of what transpired and later related this to a scribe along with everything else. The films would simply be an adaptation of that source material. Artoo being the source doesn't mean he must automatically be portrayed as the viewpoint character of the films.

    There's a good chance that Lucas, being a Lord of the Rings fan, was influenced by Tolkien's frame story for that series as being drawn from source material compiled by Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam. Those three Hobbits weren't physically present for every episode related in the story, but they were able to draw on the accounts of others involved to fill in the gaps in the narrative. Thus, despite those three Hobbits being the ultimate source for the narrative, there are sections which tell the story from the viewpoint of various other characters.

    I don't understand what's so objectionable about any of this. I don't know why every single discussion relating to literally anything even marginally touching on the prequels always has to be rendered so fractious by certain parties.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Then you immediately cite the supposed origin of the popular claim - George Lucas.

    A simple google search turns up dozens of citations and celebrations of this R2's story notion.

    It has since been oft repeated and invoked in order to acclaim I-VI and discredit anything beyond that because they have violated Lucas's crucial framing structure etc. If that is an objective people wish to pursue, then they are going to have to come up with a better reason than "R2's story" because it simply does not hold up.

    R2 is an appealing mainstay of the saga. That's it.

    Let me take you back to what started this.

    Does that sound like someone finding something objectionable about the films or what's said about the films?

    After several posts since of - No it isn't, but it is, nobody ever claimed it.. except when George Lucas did but it doesn't matter...... What is it that you think I'm finding objectionable?

    It's certainly not what Lucas may have inspired by or is alluding to. And it's not to be fractious.

    What it I do object to, i.e. that which deserves to be mocked, as my first reply alluded to exclusively, is the desire to uphold, apologise for and and perpetuate tenuously applicable platitudes like this which often take the place any meaningful, authentic analysis.

    The fact that the perception that it's R2's story or R2 tells the story of Star Wars has been promoted and unchallenged in this way is not doubt, in large part, what prompted the OP to wonder if R2's reaction to events on Mustafar is perhaps absent or more obscure than it ought to be. On the basis that it's R2's story, there should be a more definite reaction. On the basis that, it's never been R2's story, it's just a nice idea, then we don't necessarily need R2's attitude to be more clearly delineated.

    Maybe if people want to uphold their esteem for certain films or trilogies, it might be better if they upped their game with authentic analysis (which I am always happy to read on any topic) rather than relying on or tacitly promoting platitudes and sniping at people who don't accept them. Or just start ignoring people who don't, rather than take one innocuous sentence to task.
     
  16. Alexrd

    Alexrd Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 7, 2009
    Don't you get it? It completely mocks everything even though it's a non sequitur that doesn't prove or disprove anything one way or the other.
     
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Whose trademark is that? Because I, demonstrably, never said such a thing.

    Invoking "proof" or lack of it. That suggests that something was presented as proof or non-proof. Again, no such thing was claimed by me.*


    And it's still not a non-sequitur. Ask yourself why the OP suggests that a trick was missed on Mustafar with R2.

    (*this is an example of how a non-sequitur works. You seem to be using "non-sequitur" to label comments you don't like to see within the thread. Which is not what a non-sequitur is. Using non-sequitur in this way could be consider non-sequitur. )
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  18. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Well yes, Lucas has suggested that Artoo is the one the story comes from. That doesn't make it "his" story in the sense that it's mainly about him.

    I have no idea what you're going on about here. To be honest my eyes sort of glazed over halfway through reading it.
     
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I suppose it's helpful to get an acknowledgement of your lack of comprehension. But while it has everything to do with the way the conversation has went, your eyesight it has little to do with the topic
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2018
  20. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Do we, really? I mean, Artoo and Threepio, as you said, witnessed everything happening on the landing platform, including Anakin holding his hand out liken to a claw, Padme grabbing her throat before collapsing into a dead faint. It doesn’t take a genius to go, “Woah, she’s been choked unconscious! Better check with her and stay away from that guy!” We don’t need to see every little thing to surmise what they must be thinking.

    Artoo and Threepio may not know every single thing that just happened, but they’re not stupid. They’re not about to go find and hang out with a guy who just choked Padme to her presumed death and is currently attempting to turn Obi-Wan into Jawa sushi with his lightsaber.

    Just think of it from their perspective: they saw their former friend choke his wife, then spend presumably the next five minutes arguing and ranting at his former master, their other friend, before proceeding to fight him across the landing platform, across the long walkway into the main facility. Presumably a half-hour later, Obi-Wan returns clearly worn with his Jedi robes burnt and tattered.

    Yeah, no way are they gonna find the other guy. They probably thought him dead.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
  21. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    There's no reason to be rude, man.
     
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  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I agree. I didn't mean any disrespect and regret posting that. I didn't catch that in time time to delete it. So please consider this a withdrawal and an apology.
     
  23. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 10, 2015
    Lots of good points on here. R2 would have been horrified by what Anakin's actions.

    Also, the old EU depicts R2 as having recordings of Anakin's conversations with Padme (the one about her dying in childbirth, and the one ending with her being choked by Anakin). R2 showed the first by accident to Luke, and he was reticent to show the other to Luke and Leia, saying he was trying to protect them. This shows how he felt about the matter.


    This is unrelated, but it goes to show that Luke and Leia took a long time to learn about just who their parents were.


    Personally, I was not a fan of how Padme was depicted in ROTS. Too demure. I prefer her in TCW better. If anything, we can see in the films, the EU, such as the micro-series CW, that Anakin and Padme had an unhealthy relationship based on codependency.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  24. Sith Lord 2015

    Sith Lord 2015 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 30, 2015
    All very well. But in the end R2 is still a machine, and not programmed to have or at least display emotions like 3PO. I think "horrified" would be slightly beyond his programming. Or would self-defense even have kept him from following his owner? Being just a droid, would he even be "allowed" to disobey Anakin?[face_thinking]
     
  25. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Maybe so, but he’s not stupid. I’m sure he knows to stay away from the guy clearly not acting like Anakin.