Racial Double Standards

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Suzuki_Akira, Feb 9, 2005.

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  1. Jediflyer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    I'm sorry. I mistated the statistic. That should be median income, not average. Therefore, CEO and other extremely high income positions should not effect it.

  2. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Thanks for clearing that up. However, the question remains: Are we talking about people in the same positions, or are we comparing, say, a white banker to a black video store clerk?

    If they make less in identical jobs, that's one issue.

    If you're saying instead that the reason for the difference in salary is that they have a harder time getting hired and promoted, that's another.

    Which is it?

    (Still waiting on that yes or no...) :p
  3. Jediflyer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    We are saying that if you take the typical black man and the typical white man, the black man will make $15000 dollars less per year than the white man.

    I do not believe this is because of any overt racism in hiring practices or whatnot, but the legacy of centuries of discrimination and slavery.

    Things such as family structure, family businesses and farms, connections to managers and potential employers, family money on which to help send kids to college or live in a better neighborhood with better schools all suffer greatly because of the centuries of discrimination and slavery. These are the things that need to be fixed. oney and effort needs to flow to innercity ghettos and schools. Somehow, the family structure needs to be built up and sustained over gnerations.

    It is common knowledge that getting a job is more a matter of who you know that what you know. The problem is, coming out of slavery and Jim Crow, blacks knew nobody that could get them a job. Overt racism isn't needed to deny them jobs, when racisms effects had already been institutionalized via such methods.

    Its not a question of whether Tiger Woods should be stuck with a 10 point penalty. Its a question of "is the game really fair if Tiger Woods gets a couple of mulligans?"
  4. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    I'm all for reform in the ghettos, particularly at the level of early childhood. Raising the quality of inner-city education to what it is elsewhere; that's real equality. Not this "lowering our standards" business. That just fuels the problem.

    It is common knowledge that getting a job is more a matter of who you know that what you know.

    Not always?and not everyone is born knowing the right people. In fact, very few people are; the rest of us have to find another way in.

    I work in the software industry. (My bio still says "Filmmaker," but that's more of a hobby now.) When I started off, I knew absolutely no one in the business?other than my dad, who preferred to step back and let me handle things on my own (a decision I resented at the time, but now greatly respect).

    I taught myself, built a portfolio, sent resumes out in every direction, and landed myself a fairly sweet gig, which I retain to this day.

    Soon after I was hired, another guy came on board, a guy from a very rich background and who had family in the biz.

    He lasted about two months; simply put, he was lazy. And he thought he was entitled to more than he'd earned.

    The real way to promote fairness isn't to hobble people, or to play with numbers and create artificial advantages ("From now on, whenever Michael Jordan plays, the other team's points count double!"). It's to raise the disadvantaged up, and give them what it takes to challenge and overcome the obstacles in front of them.

    That's much harder, but hey, we'll all be better off for the struggle.

    EDIT: Before I sign off, let me clarify one thing:

    Not everyone who falls short does so because they deserve to.

    Think of cancer. Lots of people get it. Lots of people fight it. Not everyone wins.

    Some people fight it with all they have, defeat it and go on to win the Tour de France.

    Some people fight it with all they have, but eventually succumb.

    Winning that battle, or any battle, isn't what makes people respectable; it's how hard they fight. Again, you don't have control over how the world works, and you don't always have control of what happens to you?but you can control how you respond; you can conduct yourself with grace and courage.

    A person who loses a battle, but goes down swinging every step of the way, can inspire and teach, and grow stronger themselves ("That which does destroy me...").

    And let me tell you: If we had a nation full of people willing to stand up and fight their problems tooth and nail, rather than lie down, complain and blame others, many of the problems people love to complain about today would disappear.
  5. Armenian_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Hardly.

    No one denies that life in the ghetto is very difficult?but if some people can rise above it on their own merits, then others can too.

    Two guys I used to work with come to mind. Both of them have been homeless for extended periods of time, both have sold drugs, but one of them is now happily married with a successful job, while the other is still drifting and unemployed. Their backgrounds were similar; one just decided to fight hard enough to succeed, while the other hasn't yet.



    You deny what I say, and then prove my point. Your argument is strange.
  6. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Am I wrong, Armenian? Is it impossible to rise above harsh conditions? If some people do and some don't, what it is that sets the people who do apart from the rest?
  7. Armenian_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Am I wrong, Armenian? Is it impossible to rise above harsh conditions? If some people do and some don't, what it is that sets the people who do apart from the rest?


    No it is not impossible. But if you think everyone who has potential in the ghetto, can make it out just by trying hard, you obviously have never lived in the ghetto.

    Things have to happen for someone to get out of the ghetto. Things have to go right. They have to catch a break here or there. You can't get out on your own.
  8. Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    No it is not impossible. But if you think everyone who has potential in the ghetto, can make it out just by trying hard, you obviously have never lived in the ghetto.

    Do you know what part of the problem is? It's the atittudes among some groups of blacks as well.

    Look at some of the comments directed at Condi Rice or Colin Powell recently. Both of them managed to take the opportunities presented to them in order to become quite successful. Recently, though, they have been referred to by all manner of racial slurs, "Uncle Tom", "Aunt Jemima", "sellout", "oreo", and the like. In many cases, they've been called those by fellow blacks! Similar comments have been directed at Clarence Thomas.

    Why? Because some people hold the attitude that in order to succeed in the "white man's world" they need to have "betrayed" their race, or something similar.

    Wtih an atittude like that, which is really not all that uncommon, many blacks are holding themselves back far more than whites hold them back.

    Kimball Kinnison
  9. Armenian_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Great job taking the blame off white people Kimball. I'm sure you'll get a medal or award for that. Well said.


    It is obviously their fault. They don't want to succeed. They just want to be poor and go through life doing nothing but working as a janitor or something right? I really like how you shift blame though. That was cool.
  10. Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    Great job taking the blame off white people Kimball. I'm sure you'll get a medal or award for that. Well said.

    Hold on a moment. Tell me this: is what I said true or not?

    Have COndi Rice, Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas, and others not been called sellouts, and similar comments. I believe one of the more common ones is "race traitor".

    Those aren't whites making that sort of comment. Those are blacks. They are acting like crabs, pulling each other back down into the pot rather than letting one crab escape.

    All I said was that there are many blacks out there who are also responsible for holding blacks back, and in many cases more so than whites.

    It is obviously their fault. They don't want to succeed. They just want to be poor and go through life doing nothing but working as a janitor or something right? I really like how you shift blame though. That was cool.

    Amazing how you twist my words. I never said that "They just want to be poor", but that as a group they often hold each other back.

    Tell me, why would a black kid aspire to gain political power when the black role models that he has are called "race traitors", "sellouts", and similar epithets? What kind of an example does that set? What message does that send?

    Kimball Kinnison
  11. Armenian_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Amazing how you twist my words. I never said that "They just want to be poor", but that as a group they often hold each other back.

    Of course I twisted your words. Everyone in here does, why can't I?



    Tell me, why would a black kid aspire to gain political power when the black role models that he has are called "race traitors", "sellouts", and similar epithets? What kind of an example does that set? What message does that send?

    I'm sure you know that most African Americans are Democrats right? Aren't Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell Republican? When was the last time you heard them yell those things out to a black democrat who was a politician?
  12. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    You can't get out on your own.

    I've seen people get out on their own, Armenian.

    People have gotten out of impoverished sections of Eastern Europe to come here and build successful communities?like the Armenians have in Glendale, where I used to live and work with them every day. That's upwards of three thousand miles, often carrying nothing but their clothes, and on top of that, half of them didn't start off speaking English. And if they can succeed, how can you say that leaving a ghetto is impossible without some outside intervention?

    Let me tell you: Believing that you can't succeed on your own is the first, biggest step toward failure?and affirmative action promotes exactly that belief.

    When was the last time you heard them yell those things out to a black democrat who was a politician?

    Obama gets referred to as "house slave" on a regular basis.

    And need anyone mention all the similar jabs Tiger Woods?
  13. Armenian_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    how can you say that leaving a ghetto is impossible without some outside intervention?

    When did I say that? In fact, here's my direct quote from a few posts back:

    No it is not impossible. But if you think everyone who has potential in the ghetto, can make it out just by trying hard, you obviously have never lived in the ghetto.


    It looks like I said it wasn't impossible. If you have to resort to straight out lying to try and prove your point, then I'm just going to stop reading your posts.
  14. Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    It looks like I said it wasn't impossible. If you have to resort to straight out lying to try and prove your point, then I'm just going to stop reading your posts.

    Several people could say the same about you, with your posts in this thread so far.

    Why doesn't everyone drop the combative attitudes and try to have a peaceful discussion?

    Kimball Kinnison
  15. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Armenian, you just said "You can't get out on your own."

    Did you mean it?
  16. Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2003
    star 7
    Darth Geist posted on 2/10/05 11:06pm

    I inherited my dad's horrible acne. Was it fair that I had to get so much work done on my face while everyone else didn't? Pfft. No. Is it the way it happened? Yes. Did letting it get to me, and blaming it for everything, serve any purpose or accomplish any goal? Not one.

    />

    So you're comparing acne to disadvantaged life in the ghetto?/>/>
  17. Shrapnel_Hangover Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2004
    Well...I see the resemblance. Don't you? ;)

    BTW, yes, acne does suck. :(
  18. Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2003
    star 7
    Also, now that I've caught up to the discussion...

    Of course we all know that anti-intellectualism is confined to the black race.
    Kimball.

    EDIT: Wrong target
  19. Eschatos Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2005
    star 1
    In this day and age, don't you think that discussing things such as double standards entrenches one in the language of victimization? Whatever happened to taking the crap life gives you stoically and perservering?
  20. Darth Geist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    Suzuki, in response to your edit: No worries. :)

    So you're comparing acne to disadvantaged life in the ghetto?

    Hey, you didn't see this acne. Like I said, burn victim. ;)

    That aside, there are all kinds of obstacles in life; economic kinds, social kinds, physical kinds and so on. And in all walks of life, there are people who make a lifestyle out of battling those obstacles, or finding ways around them. They don't always win, but they win much more often than those who give up.
  21. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    So you're comparing acne to disadvantaged life in the ghetto?

    I think the first thing that has to be overcome is the out-dated concept of race.

    Do you think a poor, undereducated white person who grows up in an impoverished area in the Ozark mountians has it any better than the "ghetto?"

    Or how about a non-English speaking immigrant from Mexico, who is trying to learn in some crowded Arizona school district?

    Or a second generation Vietnamese who is herded into the slums of "little Vietnam" in New York?

    All have their own disadvantages that are no better, or no worse, than simply being black in the ghetto.

    The root here is poverty, and its adverse effect on opportunity, not simply identifying with a particular race, and playing the victim for it.

    Again, we are all human, flaws and all.
  22. Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2003
    star 7
    The poor uneducated Ozarks will be judged as poor and uneducated, whereas poor and uneducated blacks will be judged as poor and uneducated black people. There is a difference, although both are disadvantaged.

    For what it's worth, I think the Hispanics can claim to pretty much every degree of racism that I'm referring to.
  23. farraday Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    That would make more sense if "hispanic" was a race.


    Yuo can have black hispanics and white hispanics and chinese hispanics and native american hispanics. All it really refers to is the areas of central and south America which were under spanish control for centuries. Brazilians need not apply.

    Which of course forces you to ask some very intriguing questions, like do those in Guyana count? That was a English colony.

    Much like African American these little racial divides we insist on inventing fall apart under casual scrutiny so easily it's almost embaressing the way we clutch onto them as if they were the holy grail itself.

    No, correction, it is embaressing.
  24. Armenian_Jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    At least most people believe African Americans can be anything. You don't know how many people I know that think Mexicans are nothing but cheap labor. It's really sad how some people view other people.
  25. Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 13, 2003
    star 7
    Farraday, would "Mexicans" help?
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