Racial Double Standards

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Suzuki_Akira, Feb 9, 2005.

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  1. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    But I see what you're saying. But what I'm saying is that it's going to take a lot of work (But from BOTH sides!) to change this problem, because the problem indeed is on both sides. Pretending it isn't there will just let the wound fester. Disinfect, dangit, disinfect!


    I'm not talking about pretending that there isn't a disparity I'm talking about ignoring the roots to and spend all our time treating the symptoms.

    I have no recollection anywhere of there being a serious discussion of the problems with poor irish and anti irish discrimination in, well, a long while.

    Why is that? It certainly isnt because they didn't meet masisve amounts of hostility when millions of dirt poor entered the US and ended up in ghettos working for lousy wages.

    And there reason there is quite simple, they acculturated. Blacks as a whole are doing the same thing, however hampered by those who would call themselves black leaders who want to re-enforce the idea of a seperate "blackness" not in the least because it's forms the foundation of their own power.

    America has a voracious appetite for talent and an unending need for workers. As a culture, i think, we worship above all else success. Any sort of class structure simply will not work without the willful participation of the vast majority. Racism is dying. It can't keep going in any pervasive manner because each generation is less willing to express it openly, to enshrine it for the next. In the very least of ways the continuing increase in minority populations and the coressponding raise in multiracial families and persons will result in an inability to make the easy dividing lines which the prejudice relies on.


    The problem won't fix itself, the fix in inherent to the way a living healthy society adapts.

    No it isn't as satisfying as using unfair standards to promote the appearance of equality but it is both surer and more lasting.
  2. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Racism is dying.

    No it's not. It's growing. Since 9/11 racism has been growing and shows no signs of slowing.
  3. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
  4. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Evidence from where? I don't like searching the internet sorry.


    But for personal experiences, I have plenty of evidence.


    I'm not Middle Eastern but I look Middle Eastern. (Armenia is located right above the Middle East) Anyway, the day of 9/11, when I was at school, I started hearing the comments. They went something like this:

    "Hey you stupid Camel Jockey, go back to Iraq!!!"

    "****ing towel head! Suck my ****!!!"


    That day after school, while I was walking to my school bus, I got jumped from behind by 6 football players. (I even used to be on the football team and I knew 4 of the 6 people) They punched me and kicked me while I was down. Of course yelling and screaming racial slurs towards Middle Easterners while doing this act.



    That's just one story from me. My mother, my sisters and brothers have all been called things since 9/11. We've all had some idiot honk at us and give us the finger since 9/11.



    So I may not have hard evidence of it, but I do have that. You really can't tell me that you don't think there are more racists now then there were in 2000.
  5. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    That day after school, while I was walking to my school bus, I got jumped from behind by 6 football players. (I even used to be on the football team and I knew 4 of the 6 people) They punched me and kicked me while I was down. Of course yelling and screaming racial slurs towards Middle Easterners while doing this act.

    I don't believe that happened for a second. First of all, your story matches every cliche in the book. The guys that beat you up just happened to be football players? You got jumped from behind, you couldn't tell that there were 6 angry football players headed your way? They attacked you on the way to your school bus? So I assume it was on school property, that's an aweful lot of guys risking a suspension, or even an expolsion, just to beat on someone they think is of Arab descent. The guys beat on you without any words beforehand, without any provocation?

    Just admit the story never actually happened.
  6. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Wow. That was the most insensitive thing anyones said to me. I am not a liar. To just blurt something like that out, shows that you've never been a victim of any type of prejudice. That's just wrong dude. You have no right to call me a liar.
  7. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    A few days after 9/11 a muslim guy who was wearing his turban got shot and killed in Phoenix. He got shot by a random stranger who saw him and pulled his car over just to kill the guy.


    So I assume it was on school property, that's an aweful lot of guys risking a suspension, or even an expolsion, just to beat on someone they think is of Arab descent.

    This guy is risking a lot more then a suspension or an expulsion, but he still did it. But suddenly high school kids are the most cautious people in the world.
  8. Cyprusg Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 16, 2002
    star 4
    Wow. That was the most insensitive thing anyones said to me. I am not a liar. To just blurt something like that out, shows that you've never been a victim of any type of prejudice. That's just wrong dude. You have no right to call me a liar.

    Hey, I agree with you, prejudice towards Arabs in particular has grown tremendously since 9/11. But that has nothing to do with you lying.

    A few days after 9/11 a muslim guy who was wearing his turban got shot and killed in Phoenix. He got shot by a random stranger who saw him and pulled his car over just to kill the guy.

    This guy is risking a lot more then a suspension or an expulsion, but he still did it. But suddenly high school kids are the most cautious people in the world.


    That stuff happens, I never said it doesn't happen. But your story just flat out never happened, you know it and I know it. If you want to continue this discussion PM me so we don't derail this thread any further.
  9. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Not only that, but with the Phoenix example, you are also overlooking the thousands of people who offered support to (the man who was killed) Sodhi's family.

    The municipal government in Phoenix also planted a memorial tree in a park in his honor, and the victim's son was allowed to place flowers at the site, the dedication of which was attended by 200 average citizens of Phoenix.

    One disturbed man doesn't represent the village, so to speak.

    It's easy to hate ArmenianJedi, and easier still to view the world through that hate. But take comfort in knowing that most people don't share that view.
  10. Kimball_Kinnison Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2001
    star 6
    No it's not. It's growing. Since 9/11 racism has been growing and shows no signs of slowing.

    There are two levels of racism that we are discussing here. One of which the government should be involved in stopping, and the other the government has no business getting involved in.

    On the institutional level, the government is not such allowed to fight racism, it is required to. The Constitution requires that "No state shall ... deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Equal protection means that it doesn't vary its protection based on someone's race, nor that is provides benefits to one group over another. Quite simply, race shouldn't even be a factor in any government program (with very minor exceptions, such as hiring or recruiting undercover operatives).

    However, on the individual level, the government has no business telling anyone what or how they should believe. The government has no business punishing someone simply because they use racial slurs (that whole Free Speech thing), believe that one race is superior to another (Free Speech again), or simply don't like someone. "Hate crime" laws are wrong, and should never have been permitted. They make a person's beliefs worthy of punishment, and then it comes down to the government deciding which beliefs are good and which are not.

    This is not to say that people shouldn't be convicted of crimes, just that their punishments should be on the same level as anyone else who commits the crimes. When prosecuting a crime, whether a person is racist or not should only be used for one thing: to help establish motive. Beyond that, it has no business being brought up, and certainly not as the basis for an additional crime.

    A white guy kills a black guy while shouting racial slurs? Convict him of murder, just like if it were a white guy killing another white guy. A black guy beats up a latino because of his race? Charge him with assault, just like if it were two latinos fighting.

    Anything less than that is a betrayal of the Constitution.

    Kimball Kinnison
  11. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    I've came up with an interested point, which gets back to the "didn't have the same chances" comments that were made earlier.

    Something I didn't consider is the concept of "contacts". Most probably everyone knows someone who is high up in a big company - ie someone who could put the "lean on" to help in getting you a job, or a promotion, or might put you in contact with someone else, and give you a personal recommendation.

    I suppose to some extent people who come from impoverished backgrounds might not have those contacts, and hence might struggle to get going in the first place.

    I'm not saying that accounts for the result of every single job recruitment process, but I'm sure most people here have been up against an "inside job" when interviewing (ie the job was already allocated before you interviewed). "Jobs for the boys" is the expression in the UK - they have to by law organise interviews, but they are already 100% certain which way the interview will go.

    I honestly think thats a fair point. However, my opinion still stands that you have to make your own chances, which includes making you own contacts and impressing them face-to-face to get on in life.

    Take my personal situation for example - I really wanted to work in the USA following the end of my PhD, so I travelled to a major US conference where I knew I could meet section heads that would be incharge of their own recruitment. I met this great guy, and we got talking about my research, and some ideas I had, and following this conversation he invited me to go and work for him in the USA. No-one introduced me to him, nor did anyone recommend me, yet I made enough of an impression in about 30 minutes to ensure I got offered a position in the USA.

    (In addition to that I attended another conference where I gave a presentation of my work. Following that I was approached by two different group heads interested in getting me to join their team).
  12. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Don't come here malkie! We're not ready for you! :eek:



    Seriously though, Cyprusg, I've thought it over and truthfully I could care less wether you believe me or not. (I should've came to that conclusion before I sent you a PM though :p ) You could choose to ignore my story if you want.
  13. Darth-Horax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2001
    star 6
  14. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to reply to that.
  15. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Well, you see, beyond the fact that you conveniently got jumped the very day after 9/11 in your story, the obvious inconsitancy of such a story revolves around these two statements you made yourself:

    point 1: "I'm not Middle Eastern but I look Middle Eastern. (Armenia is located right above the Middle East)"

    point 2: "That day after school, while I was walking to my school bus, I got jumped from behind by 6 football players. (I even used to be on the football team and I knew 4 of the 6 people) They punched me and kicked me while I was down. Of course yelling and screaming racial slurs towards Middle Easterners while doing this act."

    It's no secret that you are proud to be Armenian, and you make mention of that fact quite often.

    Now, are you claiming the very same players you used to play football with had no knowledge of the fact that you weren't Arab, but Armeninan?

    That it never came up in conversation, or you never told your teammates that you are from Armenia?

    That's pretty far fetched.

    Or was the purpose of that story to illustrate your own bias, in that you just don't think white people would care, so you told it in such a way that these football players "beat" you anyway?

    Certainly, we don't know if that story is true or false, but on the surface, there are some pretty large holes.
  16. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    They did know I was Armenian. You think they knew Armenia wasn't in the Middle East?


    On average about 13 out of 14 people I tell that I'm Armenian get the impression that I am Middle Eastern. I've told numerous people after they crack a middle east joke that I am not middle eastern. But these so called "friends" of mine never cracked any jokes, so I got the impression that they knew I wasn't middle eastern.
  17. Darth-Horax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2001
    star 6
    Are you a United States citizen, or do you reside via green card?
  18. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    I'm a citizen. I was born in Glendale California. (Which if you've ever been there, you'd know is the city where Armenian's from around the globe flock to.)



    But seriously Mr44, do you honestly think the average person knows Armenia isn't in the Middle East?



    I've even been met with racism on these boards. Two people have gotten banned due to racist comments towards me. Recently just last week someone got banned for racist PMs.
  19. Darth-Horax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2001
    star 6
    So, if you're a US citizen, you're American, not Armenian. :)
  20. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
  21. Darth-Horax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2001
    star 6
    OR would it be American-Armenian?

    My background is Welsh, German, and Swiss, but I was born in the USA, so I'm American.

    [3PO]You are now a part of the tribe![/3PO]
  22. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    African American


    In that example they put the heritage first and then the American part second. Why would it be any different for me?



    I have 100% Armenian blood in my veins. I am an Armenian first and an American second.
  23. Darth-Horax Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2001
    star 6
    Then why don't you move to Armenia?

    I've got 100% European blood in my veins, but I'm not Euro-American.

    Americans are all mixed breeds anyway in the long run, so where do you draw the line? If you have 100% Armenian blood (and that's a cool thing, by the way), but you are an American citizen, where do your allegiances lie? What if America went to war with Armenia? Besides it being a fast war, who do you support?
  24. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    [Henry Kissinger]This isn't a productive area of discussion.[/Henry Kissinger]
  25. Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2003
    star 7
    Then why don't you move to Armenia?

    I don't have money.


    Americans are all mixed breeds anyway in the long run, so where do you draw the line? If you have 100% Armenian blood (and that's a cool thing, by the way), but you are an American citizen, where do your allegiances lie?

    Since when was it a law that you have to choose between your heritage or the country you live in?


    What if America went to war with Armenia? Besides it being a fast war, who do you support?

    Honestly, I don't know. It would of course have to depend on certain variables. Anyway, I don't see the US going to war with Armenia, especially while Bush is president. Armenia is already a democracy.
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