Racial Double Standards

Social change takes time, tryign to jury rig it into appearing to be accpmplished with equality quotas is both harmful and stupid.

I'd agree with that. The approach we need to take has to be done at an earlier and lower stage, i.e. early grade school and making predominately black neighborhoods safe, etc.

 

First of all, there were only two white people and two black people,

Pardon me, but are you saying that the study's entire sample consisted of four people?

 

The sample was roughly six hundred companies. The variables consisted of a control (credentials) controlled variables (black and whites without drug conviction) and experimental variable (drug conviction).

 

I'm going back to the original post to craft my reply.

Equality will not be reached by assuming everyone is already equal because 'my generation didn't do anything'. If anything these notions our counterproductive. This shortsighted side can be represented by wanting absolute, immediate equality, i.e. A=A. But realistically, each side will have to gain and lose a little to gain more of an equilibrium that this. Respectively, this can be represented by something to the order of "2x+3=3x+1".

You cannot create a balanced or unbiased system or process by introducing bias to it. You can only do that by removing the bias.

Right now, the philosophy behind things like Affirmative Action seems to be that because there is a biased input to the system, we need a biased system to counteract it.

The problem with that is twofold. First, by using a biased system, you lose any and all reliability in identifying the current state of things. You can no longer reliably determine what effects are caused by the bias in the sample and what are caused by the bias in the process.

Second, building on that problem, you have no way to determine when the bias in the sample has been corrected. Essentially, you have no way to know that the goal has been achieved.

However, there is a better way. It comes in two parts.

First, you balance the process. This is important because without a balanced process, you can't get accurate metrics of the situation, and therefore you can't improve it. If you cannot accurately measure something, you cannot change it. You have no way to identify improvement, or detect further harm.

Second, you focus on the root causes of the unbalanced sample and correct them. For the vast majority of these cases, the root cause is education.

Does that mean that the solution is to guarantee every minority a college degree? No. By the time they reach college, it is pretty much too late to really correct their educational habits. You need to focus on building good habits when they are younger. As Jediflyer stated, the key is to start in grade school. College, or even high school programs are too late to affect the vast majority of cases.

What we need to do is eliminate any procedural racial bias of any kind (including Affirmative Action) and then focus our efforts on the school systems, making all schools rise to meet the challenge of helping children develop the habits of learning. Only that can truely solve these problems.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Maveric,

If you wish to present numbers and statistic that contradict the ones I posted, please feel free.

 

If you wish to present numbers and statistic that contradict the ones I posted, please feel free.

ManoWan,

Your statistics are meaningless, though. Why? Because they do not and cannot differentiate between sampling bias and procedural bias.

A lot of fuss has been made recently about women in the hard sciences. You can report the outcomes (i.e. the number of women who graduate with degrees in the hard sciences) and compare that against the general population, but that proves nothing. It doesn't say that the hard sciences are sexist. If an engineering firm only has 10% women engineers, even if women are 51% of the population, that doesn't mean that they are sexist (even though they could be). Their hiring procedures could be unbiased, but fewer women happen to be qualified for the job.

Racism is a procedural bias. Economic conditions and academic background are a sampling bias. Even if you remove the procedural bias, the sampling bias will still generate a biased result. Your statistics only have to do with the results, which says nothing about either the process or the sampling biases by themselves.

Kimball Kinnison

 

I agree with Kimball

How will people be motivated to achieve thier best, if they can just play the "race card" and get promoted?

Did Booker T. Washington or George Washington Carver have affirmative action to help them out?

We are now living in the 21st Century.
It's time to move on from the past and get back to a real world approach to things.

I know that racial bias does exist, but it should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

A friend of mine had some boys come to his door selling something for a school fundraiser, and he quickly told them that we was not interested.
One of the boys said to him "Why don't you want to at least hear us out, It's because we're black, Isn't it!"

(I would assume the boy honestly believed that at that moment he was a victim of racism)

My friend pointed to the "No Solicitors" sign on his door and said "No, it's because you didn't read the sign"

 

I believe that original topic settled around the need for such things as black history month, asian and hispanic awareness weeks, and the like, correct? well, i believe that celebrations of this nature allow those of us who belong to minorities within this country to celebrate who we are as asians, hispanics and blacks, etc. clearly, without celebrations of this nature, where in the text books does it celebrate the contributions of notable minorites, when dealing with this country specifically? case in point, i doube that in mexico or anywhere in latin america, would there be a necessity to state that something was Hispanic in nature....its understood. HERE, in america, where everything is assumed to have been done by whites, where the notable contributions of minorities have miniscule places in text books....how else do we establish a sense of pride in ourselves? while, the study of the american revolution and civil war, and things of that nature, serve to remind us of the struggles of those before us and boost our sense of pride in the country, most of those contributions, NOTED at least, were all by white men.....while the entire southern economy was driven and build on the concept of free labor, aka, slavery, that hasnt been acknowledged and where it HAS been acknowledged, the call for restitution is soundly ignored....we are talking about decades pouring into centuries of the lack of basic human rights.....the playing field has never been even. now, moreso than at anytime in the past, the tilt isnt as bad, but on individual cases, we shouldnt need scales tipped to our favor, but note how many innercity neighborhoods are littered with the dashed hopes and dreams of blacks and latinos. their schools, IRONICALLY, cannot afford to pay teachers, what they get in the burbs, they used dilapidated school materials, outdated reference materials.....it all serves up inferior education, which is widely known as the means to a better end....well, if these kids are getting the shaft at THAT early stage, how are they supposed to EVER even the playing field? they dont even get a seat on the bench.....

 

Discrimination for the good of society.

We (white people) created a problem and now we have to fix it. I think all of us can agree that there is a huge problem in black american culture right now, and frankly I don't want that problem to exist because it could very well come back on me or someone I know (which it has). When 12% of the population commits 50% of the crime, that's a problem that could affect me. When a disproportionaly large number of black women are on welfare, that affects me. When the glorified image of black inner city youth corrupts all our youth, that affects me.

Of course it's not fair, but was bringing blacks over from Africa on slave ships fair? Was making black people give up their seat to whites fair? Were all the lynchings fair? This is OUR problem as a nation, we created this. You can't grab a large group of people, treat them like **** for a couple hundred years, universally regard them as inferior and then one day decide that's over and done with so they should just assimilate into our society without any problems and like nothing ever happened.

Yes, ultimately right now if a black person does not succeed in life, it's his/her fault. The door is open now and everyone has a chance to go through it. But this issue is far more complex than just the invdividual. So if having a stupid month makes some black people feel less inferior, why not, we have 11 months? If affirmative action gets more black people into college which will hopefully plant that seed with other blacks, I'm all for it. If an all black club has a positive result with many blacks, I'm all for it.

 

Did Booker T. Washington or George Washington Carver have affirmative action to help them out?

Could they use the same bathroom and eat at the same places as white people?


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Ideally, it wouldn't matter what color an inventor was, or what color someone who did something historically significant was (unless the event specifically deals with race, such as the Underground Railroad). Setting aside special times to say "hey, you're black, let's celebrate!" seems rather silly to me.

I understand that in the past, conditions were horrible for minorities. I wasn't around to see it, but I've read enough and heard enough stories to understand how horrible life was for some people. However, overcompensating is the wrong way to go. "Hey, your ancestors were oppressed, so you get special treatment!"

Sorry, it shouldn't work that way. The only way to make a step down the path to true equality is to quit giving special treatment to minorities just because they are a minority. It's a way of trying to compensate for the past, and by doing so it begins switching the inequality toward the whites.

 

For every Booker T. Washington and Frederick Douglass there's hundreds of Uncle Toms. For every W.E.B DuBois there's an underpaid factory worker or janitor or worse, gangster who was a certifiable genius but never given the chance to succeed.

If anything, it's undercompensating. Why? Because the problem has not yet been rectified. I've had a long standing subconscious belief that I and my black friends weren't as good as white people, morally and intellectually, until I discovered this a year or so ago. I lived in the suburbs which is supposedly a positive place to be, but even I had this problem. How worse would such a psychological complex be for someone who's living in or within poverty, drugs, and violence?

There will always be those who will succeed no matter the odds, many simply because they are lucky, but unless something is done to change things most who could succeed in life simply won't. They won't think they can because all they see is failure, and of the small population of those who do think they can, many won't have the means to because of their inferior conditions, not their inferior abilities. We take just a month out of the year to show that black people can and have succeeded, and suddenly trying to circulate positive information and thoughts to a community in dire need of help is counter racist. What can I say, really?

 

gangster who was a certifiable genius but never given the chance to succeed.

I've heard this sort of excuse time and time again. How is someone never given the chance to succeed? It's nothing more than a cop-out excuse from the lazy and bone-idle. It's extremely easy to blame the other people for your dead-end job, when you should be focusing on yourself.

It's always someone else's fault, and not your own. What you need to realise is that the *only* way to succeed in life is to work hard from the outset.

 

I've heard this sort of excuse time and time again. How is someone never given the chance to succeed? It's nothing more than a cop-out excuse from the lazy and bone-idle. It's extremely easy to blame the other people for your dead-end job, when you should be focusing on yourself.

If Einstein's school was in a slum with gangs and drug pushers everywhere, with his mother not there for reason of having to work to feed him, with everyone and everything on some level telling him he was stupid and could never succeed in everything, do you really believe he would have found the theory of General Relativity? If you do, you have an astoundingly optimistic view of this world, my friend.

It's always someone else's fault, and not your own. What you need to realise is that the *only* way to succeed in life is to work hard from the outset.

Who said it's 'always someone else's fault'?

 

Nobody forces a university to take quota'd amounts of whatever race.

Universities affirmative action policies are not about race, they are about diversity.

Universities seek to get students from a wide variety of cultures, ethnicities, and geographic regions.

This way the university has more clubs, students are exposed to more diversity.

Institutional biases aren'g going away, Kimball. The only way to level out the inequalities is to give people who work hard the means to improve their lot in life, to improve the lives of their CHILDREN.

So in essence, we agree. But if random minority is a hard worker and is given the chance to go to an elite university, he would have a better chance of getting out of poverty, and then he can give his own kid a better leg up.

It's not too late by college, and it's not like colleges take some F student, they take the best.

And no, whining middle class white kid who didn't get into elite university WOULD NOT have gotten in if not for Affirmative Action. Universities promote diversity, and if they wanted that middle class white kid, they would have accepted him.

 

Who said it's 'always someone else's fault'?

When you said "never given the chance". You don't 'get' the chance, you 'make' the chance.

Your Einstein analogy prove's my point, not yours. Read up on his biography and you'll understand why.

 

That may be the first time I agree with anything Malkie has said.

I'm personally sick of the reverse racism in the united states.

We can have all black schools like Howard, Jacksonville State, and Grambling...(complete list of black colleges in the USA HERE) but if you had an all white college, you'd be sued by the NAACP.

I saw something on ESPN this morning for Black History Month, and I think it was entitled "The Path We Tread." It showcased the time when Western Texas University used an all black lineup to defeat Kentucky in the Final Four. Then it went on to show Kentucky winning the Final Four with Tubby Smith, the school's first black coach, a few years back.

I'll bet you a dime that if there was a commercial that showed early white rappers like Vanilla Ice getting laughed off stage, then changed to show Eminem running things in the 2000's, it would be considered racist and wrong.

EDIT: I also wanted to say that the biggest day in my life was the day that I realized that the world owes nobody anything. That was the day I put resonsibility on my own shoulders and decided that I wanted to do things like go to college. I had to pay my own way and everything, so if I could do it, anybody could. Nobody can do it for anybody else, and with the NAACP and scholarships and grants availalbe ONLY FOR MINORITIES, there's no reason why a driven minority could not go to college and earn their way through life.

 

Einstein's father was an entreprenuer with a wife who stayed with him, forcing him to study so that even at the age of four he could do quadratic equations. I don't see what point that proves.

Horax, none of those schools are all black.

 

Einstein also flunked mathematics twice in high school. He didn't say "the man is keeping him down" or anything, he utilized his gift in physics and had others do the math.

You can't blame your lack of success, or what you deem as success, on things like parents staying together and whatnot.

It all falls on the individual, and the sooner people realize that, the sooner they'll elevate themselves to the status they desire.

 

How many whites attend Grambling?

EDIT: Did you even look at the title of the page? IT's entitled Historically Black Colleges and Universitites...I lived in Atlanta, and know for a fact that they don't allow whites at Spelman and Morehouse.

 

Obviously a crucial role would have to be situation, Horax. You can't blame someone for not losing a boxing match of they're arms and legs are tied to a pole.

Einstein flunked because HE was lazy. But he was given second chances and used them.

EDIT: How many blacks attend University of Phoenix?

 

Exactly, and with the programs set in place by these colleges and foundations, there's no excuses for anybody not getting a second chance.

That's why the programs were set up, it's up to THE INDIVIDUAL to utilize the programs though.

 

Affirmative Action is that chance for those even less fortunate than Eistein in his youth.

EDIT: Is University of Phoenix's Utah Campus a racist school?

 

Where did the U o P statement come from? It's got satellite campuses all over the place.

As far as Affirmative Action, let me ask you a question. Is it OK for a white man who has been at his job for over 25 years WITH ACCOMODATIONS be fired so the company can hire a black man with NO EXPERIENCE in teh field so they dont' get sued?

Just answer the question honestly.


EDIT: Now you changed the campus to Utah? First off, I haven't been there so I couldn't tell you, but I doubt it. What's your point?

 

This can't be explained by "lazyness"

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