Racism in ROTS

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by sushimilk, Jan 15, 2006.

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  1. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    It's there, but it's not really addressed.
    There's definitely animosity and hatred between some characters, and between species and such.
    In a similar way, there's racial tension and conflict right below the surface in all societies, and sometimes it doesn't take much to reveal it.
    So it wouldn't be all too different to know that there are class, race, gender, species conflicts in the Star Wars universe. any time you have differences between people, all it takes is ignorance to spark racial conflict.
  2. so-fly Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2006

    You should ask yourself that same exact question. :p
  3. dont_be_a_vaderhater Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2006
    Well, the comments I was talking about have been deleted by the mods.
    They were relentlessly
    picking on GL and his daughter being fat.
    I'm a big mofo, so I took offence...
  4. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    He's not around to answer, and won't be coming back anytime soon, so let's get back to serious discussion, shall we? ;):)
  5. dont_be_a_vaderhater Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2006
    sorry, I'm good now. and i already made my
    comments on the topic, so I'm out![face_blush]
  6. RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2003
    star 6
    As dont_be_a_vaderhater has said, HE posted the "recess" quote, not I. Sorry if that wasn't clear. Now let's get back on topic.
  7. Mos_Eisley Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2004
    star 3
    Maybe if Quentin Tarantino or Spike Lee was directing a Star Wars film, race would definitely be an issue at the forefront with the dialogue.

    But you can make any kind of argument and then select specific things from any piece of art or circumstance and manipulate it to support your argument.

    The media and lawyers do this kind of thing for a living.

    But Irvin Kershner did say outright on the ESB commentary that the bad guys were generally supposed to be British and the good guys Americans.

    I'll bet Star Wars fans in the UK loved that one when they watched the ESB DVD with the commentary although the connection between empires and the British isn't really far-fetched in history, not to let America off the hook with regard to parallels to imperialism either.

  8. Jobi-Won Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2003
    Lol this is rediculus..how about some people just use their head and this Thread wouldn't be so long. First of all there are MANY races and aliens in Star Wars. I think thats obvious heh. When Anakin chopped off Mace's hand, he did it because (again lets use our head) hmm..why would he? Oh Maybe becuase Mace was very stern with Anakin and stuck to his ways. Mace wasn't really willing to bargan much. When he thought something should be done, he does it. No MATTER WHAT, he was going to make Anakin stay in the coucil chambers, and if Anakin didn't chop off Mace's hand, as ou can see from what he tells Anakin that "He is to dangerous, and must be killed (Sidious)" judging by Mace's history, he was going to kill Sidz eitherway. So out of desperation, Anakin chopped Mace's hand off. As you recall Mace was kind've mean to Anakin as well, so when Anakin chpped Mace's hand off, its like a kid finally having enough of their parents dissaplin that might be too strict, and act out earationally. You get it?

    And also with Yoda, Sidious is evil. If the "green" comment was meant to insult, then so be it. Ummm...is he not the ultimate evil? lol common now.

    Why are you going to waste time saying that their was racism in Revenge of the Sith? lol like...seriously? What are you really mad at...
  9. LeeKenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2002
    star 6

    Orn Free Taa.
    Declan Mulholland (aka, the Jabba stand-in)
    Porkins.
    Boss Nass.
  10. Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2004
    star 4
    one point i would like to make is of course there are many races in the star wars series.
    no mistake about that. but surely there has to exist some sort of supremecy thoughts amongst some of the races, creeds and colors.


    If you were to consider all of the myriad hypothetical variables in a universe such as the one in which this story unfolds, then yes, I imagine there would be some prevalent examples of ethnic prejudice. However, while there is intercultural hostility in the "Star Wars" films, it is not based upon any specific, underlying racial bias; the conflict is more overt, incorporating very basic concerns such as pragmatism and self-preservation.

    For instance, the Gungans in "Episode I" represented a kind of relative primitivism that sat in diametric opposition to the aggressive modernity that characterized the society on Theed ? this is an 'extension,' if you will, of one of the salient conflicts in "Return of the Jedi" in which an 'undeveloped' culture (the Ewoks) overcomes a technologically advanced Imperial force. If anything, the issue in "Phantom Menace" was that of two disparate societies overcoming cultural differences to join forces in order to defeat a common enemy.

    I dont want to make this a black or white issue, but let just state that if you look at the obvious, in no way did anakin seem to respect mace.

    Let?s examine this in more practical sense, using examples from the films. Lucas made it clear in "Episode I" that there was tension between the Jedi Council and Qui-Gon, who rather aggressively sought to gain permission to train Anakin; the Council?s misgivings about Skywalker?s potential appointment is evident immediately, and indeed Mace is seen as being in ardent opposition to Qui-Gon's request. This sets up a sub-plot concerning Anakin?s tenuous relationship with the Council, which is made even more apparent as he voices displeasure over the restrictions of his lifestyle and the difficulty in having to adhere to an impractical code of conduct in "Episode II." This detail is exploited more fully by director Lucas in "Episode III," where he contextualizes Anakin?s confusion by creating a political ambiguity in which both the Jedi and the Sith seem to be equally corrupt...from a certain point of view.;) Therefore, the palpable strain that exists between Anakin and Mace can be connected to the increasing level of uncertainty that develops within the environment that they inhabit; if it is clear that Windu did not fully trust Anakin before, then this is only embellished as the situation becomes more extreme. There is, however, a scene in which Anakin has an opportunity to gain Mace?s trust; when Anakin informs the Jedi Master of Palpatine?s true identity, Windu says to him, "If what you told me is true, you will have gained my trust, but for now remain here." Anakin knows intellectually that he should obey this directive, but ultimately discards morality as he becomes undone by the penetrating disquiet of his own fear; the Chancellor offers him an entreaty which will potentially enable Anakin to save his wife from death, and his overwhelming apprehension at the prospect of losing her transcends the various other ethical issues involved in abandoning the Jedi Order, etc.

    maybe not because he was black, but because perhaps he was different?? why did he feel compelled to talk to yoda about his nightmares instead of mace?

    That doesn?t make any sense at all. If Anakin avoided Mace because he was different from himself, then why did he choose to approach Yoda, who is even more dissimilar?

    yet he felt it better to tell mace about his discovery of palps being a sith and not hologramming a message to yoda instead. whats the issue with that?

    Yoda was overseeing the battle on Kashyyk, whereas Mace was on Coruscant. Since Mace was a Jedi Master positioned in close proximity to Anakin at the moment in which he learned of Palpatine?s true identity, logic would dictate that Anakin seek out the most esteemed Jedi located closest t
  11. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    You make some points I agree with, but as stated by the person who started this thread, we're supposed to be talking about racism WITHIN the Star Wars world, and not how the movie is reflective of the biases, prejudices of the society that made it.
    Because ALL movies reflect pre-existing biases, prejudices, etc. etc.
    Now, no, not all movies are racist. But all are prejudiced and/or biased in some way. It's nearly impossible not to be. We all have our own personal tastes, biases and perspectives on the world, based on our own learnings and experiences.

  12. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
  13. sushimilk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 1

    Don't flame

    i never said there was, is, etc etc....
    i specified if there possibly was some within the star wars RACES...STAR WARS RACES.
    not a black and white issue, but within their specific race....
    not like KKK vs Malcom X racism fool.
    if it could have played a factor, thats it.
    it wasn't meant for you to go ask your pop or your school teacher and make a discussion further outside the star wars series.
    ((like...seriously?)))

  14. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Racism is heavily involved in the Prequels, but only concerning humans and the alien races. If you notice, all the seperatists were alien beings, and Palpatine made this no accident, as he was trying to eliminate the alien presence in the senate by seperating them, and making them start a war that would make all alien species look bad. That's why he chose humans as clones, and enlisted only humans in his armies. It may be a forced limitation back then, but it's one that Lucas wrote in regardless of it. The scene at the end with Palpatine, Tarkin and Vader proved to me that the Empire had divided and excluded the aliens from their new order.
  15. Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2004
    star 4
    These are all opinions. Yours, mine, others'.

    Obviously, that is the case; however, this is a discussion board in which we are encouraged to debate various issues, and it is fine to do that as long as we remain respectful of each others' opinions. I am sorry if my comments in the previous post made it seem as though I was being disrespectful of your opinion; I didn't intend for that to be the case, but I can see where one might think that. I should have re-structured a few of my sentences.

    I find elements of racist stereotypes in TPM, and that's my reading of it, as it's yours that you don't see any racism in it.

    I'm a believer in the individual's own personal reading of a movie, and the freedom in them having such views.


    Of course; I apologize as I didn?t mean to undermine your opinion, but based upon the very scant amount of detail provided to support it, I wished to challenge it. That does not mean that I do not have respect for you or your opinion.

    Now, I do agree that perhaps I overstated the case that TPM proudly wears them, but I still do think that it does have them. Jar Jar is a streamlined version of the minstrel, but made for kids.

    This is where we can have a more fruitful discourse, by addressing the specific issues entailed in alleged stereotypical constructs. However, since you have not provided specific arguments aside from a broad generalization, then I will cite a different source in response.

    Here is an excellent article written some years ago by a man named Michael Wong, in which he addresses and debunks the allegations of racism in TPM (from stardestroyer.net). I don't agree with all of his remarks, but overall, I do think the following is worth a read.

    There is a quiet movement afoot to brand George Lucas a racist because of "racist" stereotypes that are supposedly found in TPM. The people leading this movement may feel that it's a huge burning issue, but I find it amusing that in spite of their aggressive publicity, most ordinary people have never given the idea a second thought. If they've heard of it at all, the average person has dismissed it immediately as a joke.
    What is this "controversy"? It basically centres on two alien species in TPM: The Neimoidians and the Gungans. The same argument has been made in dozens of entertainment industry articles with virtually no variation, so I will paraphrase the argument here rather than quoting one of the articles verbatim:

    If you watch TPM, you can clearly hear that the Jar-Jar Binks character (and for that matter, the entire Gungan species) speaks with a Caribbean accent, in an obvious 18th century slave dialect. It isn't just him- the entire Gungan species speaks this same broken dialect. The broken dialect suggests to the viewer that the entire Gungan race is under-educated, and the imagery of them living in the sea, beneath the land-dwelling, well-educated Naboo people is so racist that it is unbearable. The Gungans (blacks) are uneducated and live in the dark depths, while the Naboo people (whites) are highly educated artisans who live in beautiful cities in the sun. The characteristically lackadaisical gait and floppy ears of the Gungans merely reinforce the stereotype. It doesn't really matter whether this horrific imagery is deliberate or intentional- the point is that it exists, and George Lucas should be ashamed.

    The Gungans aren't the only racist stereotype in TPM- the Neimoidians are even worse! Start with the accent- they all speak in an obviously Asian-accented broken dialect which sounds like Charlie Chan, in a not-so-nice homage to the common "Yellow Menace" motif of the 1930's era serials from which George Lucas drew his inspiration. But the stereotype doesn't stop there- look at their appearance and behaviour. With their slitted eyes, flat faces, duplicitous nature, and economic aggression, they are clearly meant to represent one of the big Japanese corporations- is it Toyota? Sony? Toshiba? Does it really matter which corporation it is? The point is that TPM promoted horri
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anyone who decides to flame or bait in this thread, will be in serious trouble. If you can't discuss this in a civil manner, then either don't post in here or accept the consequences for flaming.
  17. sushimilk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2005
    star 1

    finally someone hit it on the head!!
  18. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    Hey Tyranus the Hutt, thanks for the considerate response. Good to have a thoughtful, mindful discussion with someone.
    And about your apology, hey, no problem at all. I hope I wasn't coming as insinuating you were necessarily saying that THIS IS ALL SET IN CONCRETE, but I was just putting that out as a general "let's not go HERE" type line (not directed at you, but just as part of the overarching discussion). So I hope I didn't come off as explicitly directing that at you. A lot of times, these discussions go down... a dark path, as Yoda might say.
    So anyway, yes, I have been vague at times, I was just typing my posts out in a hurry, so soon, I will write out a more elaborate, detailed and supported post, when I have more time.
    hope you read that one and respond...
    and I will read thoroughly that article you posted. on first viewing, I think the writer of that one is looking at it a bit too simplistically, in too much of a denial mode, although I do know where he's coming from. But from what I read so far, he's seems a bit naive. But I'll give it all a chance and read it in full. thanks!
  19. DarthDubya05 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2005
    star 4
    i say it like this:

    the system is designed for the black man to fail.
  20. Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2004
    star 4
    Hey Tyranus the Hutt, thanks for the considerate response.

    No problem.:) I certainly don?t post on a message board with the intention of becoming adversarial with others, so for the most part I try to be as respectful and polite as I can.

    Good to have a thoughtful, mindful discussion with someone.

    Yes, I concur.

    And about your apology, hey, no problem at all. I hope I wasn't coming as insinuating you were necessarily saying that THIS IS ALL SET IN CONCRETE, but I was just putting that out as a general "let's not go HERE" type line (not directed at you, but just as part of the overarching discussion). So I hope I didn't come off as explicitly directing that at you. A lot of times, these discussions go down... a dark path, as Yoda might say.

    That?s true ? this is, after all, a sensitive subject, and therefore more difficult to address in respectful and intelligent fashion.

    So anyway, yes, I have been vague at times, I was just typing my posts out in a hurry, so soon, I will write out a more elaborate, detailed and supported post, when I have more time.

    That?s fine.

    and I will read thoroughly that article you posted. on first viewing, I think the writer of that one is looking at it a bit too simplistically, in too much of a denial mode, although I do know where he's coming from.

    I don?t know that he is in 'denial mode,' as you put it, but we can discuss that at length if you wish.

    But from what I read so far, he's seems a bit naive.

    I don?t think he?s naïve, and indeed he raises several valid arguments; that is not to say, though, that I agree with all of them. For the time being, I will try and address some of the allegations of racism in the "Star Wars" films:

    The 1977 original was branded as being "a Ku Klux Klan?s fantasy of the future" (Gary Anderson) in its presentation of an all-white supremacist army (the stormtroopers). To make matters even more incendiary, it has been noted that Anakin Skywalker is a Caucasian male who turns to evil, at which point he dons a black suit which acts as an ambulatory life-support system, and whose voice is provided by James Earl Jones, an African-American actor. I find it interesting, then, that no one has bothered to mention that in "Episode III," Anakin becomes Vader long before entering the suit.

    How about these "insightful" musings, by a writer named Haroon Moghul: In Episode III, the first major Jedi to die, at the hands of Darth Sidious, is Master Windu, who in addition to being thrown out a window, is the only black human Jedi. How come the black man always dies first? (The first Jedi Anakin kills is black. Anakin is therefore guilty of a hate crime.)

    This is a "hate crime"? That?s news to me; I thought it was obvious that Anakin cut off Mace Windu?s hand so that he could prevent the Jedi Master from killing Palpatine, whom Anakin ("No, he must stand trial. I need him alive") needs to preserve so that he can learn how to save Padme from death. A "hate crime" is defined by United States Congress as "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals." Does Anakin?s motivation conform to this applied definition? I don?t think so.

    Moving on...

    Jar Jar is allegedly a Rastafarian figure whose floppy ears are meant to signify dreadlocks ? a trait which, according to the critics, only further supports the stereotype. Portrayed by an African-American actor named Ahmed Best, Jar Jar is seen by some as being a servile figure that is more or less on par with the racist and stereotypically uneducated, low-intellect black characters made famous by Stephin Fetchit (Lincoln Perry) in the films of the 1920?s, 30?s, and 40?s. Not unlike Best, Perry was a skilled physical performer, which, according to the critics, only lends a greater amount of credence to this parallel. Inde
  21. Luke_SW Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2003
    star 2
    edit: there's no need for that

    Anakin consulted Yoda instead of Mace because they had a better relationship
    Mace didn't trust Anakin, and Anakin knew that
    If you needed advice would you go to someone you had anamosity towards?

    There is NO racism in Star Wars
    Some people tried to claim that there was in AOTC with Jango and the Clones and failed to make a valid, believable point



  22. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR
    posted:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Racism is heavily involved in the Prequels, but only concerning humans and the alien races. If you notice, all the seperatists were alien beings, and Palpatine made this no accident, as he was trying to eliminate the alien presence in the senate by seperating them, and making them start a war that would make all alien species look bad. That's why he chose humans as clones, and enlisted only humans in his armies. It may be a forced limitation back then, but it's one that Lucas wrote in regardless of it. The scene at the end with Palpatine, Tarkin and Vader proved to me that the Empire had divided and excluded the aliens from their new order.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    I see your point, and, I agree with you. I struggle with other people's use of the word "racism" as an explanation for the ANTI-Alien bias of the Empire.
    IMO, its more about religion than it is about race.

    The Sith used the Republic to accomplish their goals, ursurped control, then turned it into a dictatorship. Sidious sought to crush those who didn't share in his "larger view" of things.

    EXAMPLE:
    "We must move quickly. The Jedi are relentless. If they are not all destroyed it will be civil war without end."

    Was there any mention of "ALIENS"?

    Who will wage a civil war? Aliens and Sith?

    NO! We know it will always be Jedi versus Sith when it comes to Star Wars.

    These movies are about the consequences of right and wrong actions, not about black and white.



    ***

    I really enjoyed the last 2 posts from Tyranus_the_Hutt and MysticalMaceWindu.

    ***

    No matter how hard I look, I still just see it as Jedi versus Sith.
  23. Ruthio Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 2
    im pretty sure the chacrters in starWars have no idea what racism is. Im also pretty sure Anakin sees a dark skinned human being, as simply that. He sees Mace as a dark skinned human and not a black man or a nigero. Their was no slavery, and their was no civil rights movement. The only reason you see humans as empirial solderes is because the movied are writen by a human. A human jedi is the chosen one, a human is the main character, Anakin kills human younglings in the tmple raid. Lucas knows the audience and the fans can relate to humans more then to aliens. When was the last time a unhuman looking Alien was the main star of a Scifi fanchise? A human being wrote the movies and thus humans are main characters, and the main villains mostly. Its like the harry potter books, a brittish writer thus a brittish main cast of characters.
  24. spacerocker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2002
    star 4
    I agree. There are probably so many races in the Star Wars universe that have lived so diversly with each other for so long that if there ever was any racism, it must be in the distant, distant, distant past.
  25. ObiWanIsTheOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2005
    star 2
    The only "racism" that could probably exist within the Star Wars universe is alien against alien against human type of thing. Not skin color though. Not amongst Humans at least. As someone already said, Mace Windue is not a "black man" to them. He is simple a man. That is it. Skin color is not really a reason people hate each other. It became that way through the experiances Humanity went through in Earth's history. So to try and apply it to the Star Wars universe is ridiculous.
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