Racism in the Forums: A Call to Action

Um, I don't think "nigger" came from Nigeria, but was merely a derived from the word "negro", which is the Spanish word for black.

As for not allowing even DISCUSSING the word and its history, I'm amazed. People, if we can't even DISCUSS things that offend us, how are we going to overcome our own ignorance? How will we LEARN?

The reason I say there are probably no black moderators is because blacks have an immediate reaction to that word.

Isn't that a generalization in and of itself?
First you don't KNOW what color the mods are, and really, does one have to be a certain color to feel a certain way? Hell, I find the N word offensive, and I'm as white as a Stormtrooper's armor! There goes your theory!



However, in a context such as discussing racism and history, you can't NOT mention slurs that people find offensive. It's too important to the discussion.

And how do we really know the board is a certain percentage white/black/whatever? How do you know every black person on the forums responded to that thread?

 

Second of all, nigger is a slang term for Nigerian, which is where most black slaves came from.

Main Entry: nig·ger
Etymology: alteration of earlier neger, from Middle French negre, from Spanish or Portuguese negro, from negro black, from Latin niger

 

If someone doesn't understand that by now color, religion, language, or sex has absolutely nothing to do with the selection process for modship, then there's a problem.

Very true. For all anyone knows, we have green Satanist transexuals in the Mod Squad.

Actually, that explains a lot.

 

*This* is the reason why I prefer to mod the movie forums. Yeesh.

 

Wimp!

 

DARTHBANE and DJANGO: Great points! Nice to see there are some people out there who actually understand the issues and are not defending this hypocrisy.

There have been many posts since my last one so instead of trying to address each one, I will just get into the 3 most common:

1) The discussion in the Senate forum has been civil: As I have stated before, I don't care if the discussion is civil at all. I don't care if it is "intellectual" at all. My main issue is with the Senate mods supporting the use of and using racist slurs. Especially in light of the fact that they completely ban other words IN ANY CONTEXT, whether the discussion is civil or not. So this point about civility is completelty irrelevant. Furthermore, the lack of offense is assumed because the people responding have not been offended. This ignores the people who may just be reading the thread, who logically, far outnumber the particpants.

So again, however nice and friendly people are being is irrelevant.

2) The N-word is a hot button issue! It has "social merit" and it is an important issue for us to discuss: Ah yes, with the daily bombings and death in Iraq, the violence in the middle east, the California Recall, the famine in Ethiopia and Presidential primaries, where is all the N-word coverage??

This argument again fails because it does not address the main point. But let's assume that this is correct, this discussion is worthy and has "social merit." Well even though some posters have proclaimed that no "woman, has EVER used the C-word in a manner that was not offensive or vulgar in the history of humanity" might I offer some of the numerous examples of the use of the C-word not only in an inoffensive way, but in the context of battling sexism and exposing patriarchy in society. It was and remains symbolic in feminist thought.

Here is an article about a very renowned feminist text called "C-WORD: A Declaration of Independence"

http://archives.thedaily.washington.edu/2001/010901/N3.Feministpr.html

Here are a few other examples of books that encompass female private parts. They are on amazon.com

The Vagina Monologues

Slut!

Here is a feminist essay outlining the use of the C-word and how it is an oppresive, sexist term.

pdrzone.com/projects/****struck

"Reclaiming C-WORD" -- Another feminist essay on the degradation of women and sexism focsuing on the negative stigma attached to female genitalia.

www.her-own-eyes.org

Here is an article which references "C-Word Power" buttons that feminists used to wear int he 70s as a sign of solidarity and a rejection of the patriarchal notion that the vagina is "dirty" or vulgar".

www.villagevoice.com/issues/0107/lerner.shtml

This link discusses a college course that focuses on "C-WORD Art" as an expression of feminist ideas and reclaming the power and equality of female genitalia

www.courses.psu.edu/Materials/ cmlit108_rng106

So clearly, there are and remain intellectual discussion and discourse on the C-word. So now, by even the most basic logic, all of those discussing the "social merit" of discussing the impact of racist slurs, MUST support using the C-word for the same exact reasoning (but of course, you won't. lol).

And then some state that in the thread the word is not a "racist slur." Well, that assumption also is baseless since it is a fact the word is offensive and you don't know what a reader feels about it just seeing it. Several posters here have expressed outrage over the C-word and no one is even using it.

Also interesting that so many people were quick to jump on me for referencing "Sex and the City" as an example of White Women casually using the C-word, yet numerous people keep citing "Rap videos" as an example of Blacks saying the N-word (even though, ironically, racist slurs are not even permitted on MTV or BET!! LOL!!) and that's solid evidence.

3) And again, I must reiterate for all the people forgetting, that the basic issue is that the Senate mods permit racist slurs in some instance but ban other words

 

I said earlier, if you are discussing quantum physics and want to use the F-word, you can't. It does not matter how civil or intellectual you are getting. It is not allowed. You have to censor it or talk around it.

How would you propose someone intelligently and relevantly use the f-word in a quantum physics discussion?

You can't. Completely unrelated word.

 

If someone is really that interested in discussing "the impact of racist slurs" then you should have talk around saying the N-word as well. Plain and simple. But the mods don't do that. And therein lies the hypocrisy. There is no basis for permitting racist slurs that holds any water. They are all BS reasons that are easily disproven.

I gave a previous example of a word (bastard) that was banned at the time in the Senate, and yet an exception was given to use it in one specific thread. That was done with moderator approval (Lord Bane's at the time).

The recent thread was cleared with a moderator and stabilized (in a respectful manner) before anyone did anything but talk around the term. That's all according to precedent.

Your thread, on the other hand, was not cleared with a moderator, as is required by the rules, and so it was locked. The standard is the same in all three cases. As moderators, we are not required to approve all threads that people ask us to, and we certainly are not required to approve them after the fact.

The thread you are so upset about has been cleared through all levels of the administration. It is not going to be locked and future threads on similarly touchy subjects still need to be cleared with a moderator before posting.

Kimball Kinnison

 

STACKPOLE --The concept of a parallel universe is not F-ing mind-blowing??? Uh, hello, as peopleare saying about the N-word, the F-word has clearly taken on diferent meanings in American society. It has become synonomous with "very" or "extremely" (i.e. "Attack of the clones was F-ing awesome!!"). That is not an offensive expression, it is a descriptive one. And it is an extremely common use.

See a pattern? The arguments everyone is using equally apply to other "bad words."

And I like how you conveniently skip all my analysis regarding intellectual use of the C-word.

KIMBALL-- How long shall you keep avoiding my points? Where did I ask for a thread to be closed?? Where?

 

STACKPOLE --The concept of a parallel universe is not F-ing mind-blowing???

While it is (well, not really, I've been thinking about this for years) the word is not necessary for the conversation.

And I like how you completely ignore the possibility that I haven't been following the official discussion. Also, that I didn't look at your 'evidence'. Also, that I don't really care, because that word is not an issue in my mind. You ignore the possibility that I'm astounded you're even arguing this at all.

 

SRACKPOLE said:While it is (well, not really, I've been thinking about this for years) the word is not necessary for the conversation.

Ha! So tell me. When is the N-word "necessary" for intellectual discussion?? Can't one discuss racist slurs by using the term "racist slurs"??

And furthemore, you again ignore my analyis where I show the multiple uses of the F-word as a descriptive term negates your point.

STACKPOLE ADDS:And I like how you completely ignore the possibility that I haven't been following the official discussion. Also, that I didn't look at your 'evidence'. Also, that I don't really care, because that word is not an issue in my mind. You ignore the possibility that I'm astounded you're even arguing this at all. [/]

Well, considering my post was directly above yours, one would think you would actually read it before saying I am wrong. And furthermore I don't know why or how you can be astounded by any of this since you have not read it.

 

Ha! So tell me. When is the N-word "necessary" for intellectual discussion?? Can't one discuss racist slurs by using the term "racist slurs"??

Because other racial slurs do not have the impact that the n word does.

And I like how you're really out for blood here. You're really proving a point by saying 'ooh! ooh! you didn't quote that part! ooh!'

 

" Ha! So tell me. When is the N-word "necessary" for intellectual discussion?? Can't one discuss racist slurs by using the term "racist slurs"?? "

So, by this reasoning, you'd be happier if people just said "the N-word", rather than "nigger"?

 

STACKPOLE said:Because other racial slurs do not have the impact that the n word does.

That is not my point. I am saying it is nto necessary to actually type the N-word itself. Just like the Senate mods are adamantly against the use of the word for vagina that rhymes with "punt". You have to say the C-word. No matter what. That is hypocrisy.

And I like how you're really out for blood here. You're really proving a point by saying 'ooh! ooh! you didn't quote that part! ooh!'

Well, when you ignore basic points I make in my post, and follow up by saying I'm wrong, what am I supposed to say? And then you prove me right by saying you didn't read it.

MEBEJEDI said"So, by this reasoning, you'd be happier if people just said "the N-word", rather than "n**ger"?

YES!!! Exactly. The rules should be applied equally in our oh-so very "family friendly forum."

 

Perhaps it is me being completely foolish, however I was not aware widespread social degredation of women was a problem in Western society.

Certainly things are not equal, however the degredation implied by using the term is not something that I am aware of being even minimally normal behavior.

Perhaps this would change if, as the radical feminist proposed in one of your link, women started refering to themselves with the term.

By demanding a society accept a different standard of behavior and expression, a subgroup isolates themselves. The domininat group got that way even with the minimal support of the subgroup, by isolating itself the subgroup does not do real harm to the society while at the same time giving it a much lower starting point.

By integrating, the subgroup becomes part of the larger group and gains all the benefits of it.

Women, depsite the urging of the most radical feminist have integrated far more into what was previously a male dominated society then blacks have into a white dominated society.

I will not pretend integration is easy, however in the long run it is much better for everyone involved.

There is a point to this I assure you.

The difference between "nigger" and "****" is that a large segment of blacks have to accepted the use of "nigger", while "****" remains unaccepted except by a few women.


It's useage isn't wide enough to really spark worthwhile debate from a generalized audiance. There is an aspect to it I think could be used as a point in a similar discussion.

Once again, it's "acceptable" useage is rather isolated and would invoke as much balanced debate as saying "I think sexually molesting kittens is wrong".

 

How long shall you keep avoiding my points? Where did I ask for a thread to be closed?? Where?

Quoting from your second post in the thread in question:

I am not going to debate the content of a thread that I think should be locked.

That thread has been approved for as long as it remains a respectful conversation (although anyone trying to hijack it will be banned). Your attempt to complain about the thread through another one was not approved, and so it was locked. That is the point.

You may consider that thread offensive, but that in and of itself is not sufficient basis for it to be locked, nor is it a basis for changing the rules. As I have repeatedly stated, the ModSquad has unanimously agreed to allow it to remain.

Additionally, I did address your points. Specifically, I showed you a prior example of a thread where a word that was otherwise prohibited was allowed in that one thread.That is a clear precedent when you have approval from a moderator. Earlier in this thread I posted links to articles written in the last year relating to the issue. (I should also point out that we have had threads on topics much older than this one as well, and I didn't see you complain then that it wasn't timely.) Finally, the discussion has remained in the bounds set by the TOS.

Kimball Kinnison

 

farraday's got it.

 

FARRADAY SAiD:Perhaps it is me being completely foolish, however I was not aware widespread social degredation of women was a problem in Western society.

Wow. I think some people, myself included would completely disagree with you there.

The difference between "n**ger" and "***t" is that a large segment of blacks have to accepted the use of "n**ger", while "***t" remains unaccepted except by a few women.

What do you base this on? How could you prove this? Do you have any evidence of this or are you just relying on racial/gender stereotypes that you have created?

KIMBALL-- Did I ask you to close the thread? In fact have I even asked anything of you with regard to the thread? No. I never asked any mod to close the thread, despite my feelings on it. Period.

And for the record, you keep citing rules with regards to my locked thread. But whether you know this or not, your stated rules were not the reason I was given for the thread being closed from the mod who actually closed it. They were completely different so your points are not really relevant in this instance.

But since we're on the topic of moderating, certainly you are now in favor of the C-word being used for civil, intellectual discussion, right?

 

"YES!!! Exactly. The rules should be applied equally in our oh-so very "family friendly forum."

Wasn't the rule of asking for permission for opening a thread not followed by you, thus leading to its being locked? ?\

Was it not the nature of the thread, but the way it was started, that led to its being locked? ?

 

MEBEJEDI-- My points are not really concerned with the thread that I started. The reasons for my thread being locked that are being stated by Kimball are not the same reasons given by the mod who locked it.

 

"They were completely different so your points are not really relevant in this instance. "

Then perhaps you should explain why it was locked...

 

And for the record, you keep citing rules with regards to my locked thread. But whether you know this or not, your stated rules were not the reason I was given for the thread being closed from the mod who actually closed it. They were completely different so your points are not really relevant in this instance.

KW and I have corresponded on this issue extensively. That was the reason that he informed me he was giving you. If he gave a different one, then you need to take it up with him.

Also, for the record, I was in the procss of locking it as well when I saw that he had just locked it.

But since we're on the topic of moderating, certainly you are now in favor of the C-word being used for civil, intellectual discussion, right?

No I am not. You have not shown enough of a basis, nor did you seek prior approval from a moderator before posting that thread. Additionally, the text of your initial message in that thread showed that your intent was not to have an intelligent discussion, but to complain about what you considered to be inappropriate behavior. As such, your request is denied.

As I stated before, the rules on that point are not going to change and approval is not going to be given for your thread.

Kimball Kinnison

 

Social inequality is one thing, social degredation is another.

I do not know where you live, however off hand I can not think of any times I've heard in person the useage of the word "****" outside of an angry diatribe.

Certainly never in the casual talk describing a friend.

Most times actually come through books or on TV which may reflect some reality, but certainly not one I've experienced.


What do you base this on? How could you prove this? Do you have any evidence of this or are you just relying on racial/gender stereotypes that you have created?

I can't prove it, but other then those trying to disagree in increasingly futile efforts to be relevant, I don't think many would find fault the generalization.

It's based on observation, the fact most people would agree elads me to believe it's a valid observation.

Now if you want to have discussions based on wild speculation of possibilities go ahead, but remember, "what if" topics are banned.

 

KNIGHT WRITER stated that with regards to the C-word was "There's no grounds for discussion of the word (or anything similar) on the JC." We had a running discussion about this in PMs. Yes, he did mention mod approval, but my thread was clearly not sexual in nature. It was about why certain words were banned and others were not. And racism. And besides, Knight Writer and I were having the discussion about these words before I even started the thread. So there was no mistaking my intent. It has nothing to do with sex at all. That was just pretext thrown-in after the fact.

KIMBALL -- I am NOT talking about my old thread when I asked about using the C-word (which my old thread DID NOT USE by the way. There was no profanity in that thread). I am talking about a new thread, based on the clearly intellectual discourse in the numerous examples I have provided on the impact of the C-word, sexism and feminism.

So again I ask: Going forward, will you allow anyone to use the C-word, for intellectual and civil discussion?


FARRADAY-- Oh, okay, I see your point now. Well, guess what? It has been my observation that people do use the C-word casually and that many people are offended and have not accepted the use of the N-word. So by your standards, you're wrong.

 

Please explain why someone who doesn't want the N-word to be discussed, due to "obvious" negative connotations, would turn around and want to discuss the C-word?

Just as you question the intent of posters to discuss the use of one word, I question yours to discuss the use of another.

Was this truly for an honest discussion of the word, or were you simply looking for retribution?