Racism wrong, Homophobia acceptable?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Jul 15, 2002.

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  1. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    First, I would like to state that I do not hate gays or feel like hurting them in the least.

    Second, I would like to state that I view gay acts just like I view straight acts outside of marriage. I see no difference morally, just one being a little "sick" to my tastes.

    That being said, I don't think genetics really matter in terms of what the gay people actually do. I wouldn't agree with someone's actions if straight people had the genetic tendency to have sex with as many women as possible.
  2. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I have asked this time and time again: how are oral and anal sex between men and women any different than between two men or two women? How are they any more natural?

    But they don't advertise the fact that they are gay. They don't hide it but they don't let it define them.

    This is not trivial. But I'm curious - are you likewise offended by men who advertise their heterosexuality, perhaps with crude T-shirts or bumper stickers, or lewd comments at every female who walks by?

    I personally don't want to have to imagine what people do in their bedrooms, or with whom, so I too prefer people keeping it to themselves. But I understand that some gays do a few appearance things to make it clear to others that they are gay - not to advertise, just so straight people won't hit on them and gays will know they are fair game.

    As to the argument that we aren't allowed to punish people for behavior they're born with... Psychotics are often born, not made - that doesn't stop us from punishing them. Pedophilia is NOT a homosexual OR a heterosexual act - it's a neurotic behavior totally separate from orientation.

    If people are born - quite often, compared to what most of us realize - with both sets of sex organs, or hormone imbalances that make them lean heavily toward the opposite gender, what makes you think homosexuality couldn't be a genetic trait? Even if you think it's an incorrect genetic trait we should "cure", these anomalies present argument enough not to assume every homosexual is "choosing" to be such. You can wait for proof of a genetic component if you want, but I wouldn't assume the opposite in the meantime.
  3. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    For those who think homosexuals(or bisexuals for that matter) choose their orientation: Do you remember choosing to be heterosexual?
  4. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    I, honestly, can't believe that people are equating acts that hurt and demeen other people with what goes on between two consenting adults.

    I also can't believe the historical inaccuracies that have been pulled up to support that particular person's homophobia.

    *Ahem* Rome did not fall because of cases of homosexuality. There was a defined political climate, coupled with many other factors that related to other events of the time. Homosexuality has NEVER lead to the fall of a civilisation or people. I can't believe someone could spout that in good faith and get away with it!

    Maybe I'm biased. Many of my friends are gay or bisexual (including two of my best friends). I grew up in a household where my parents who had openly gay friends who visited. I never saw anything wrong with it, because they (the couples) were very much in love and supported each other just as couples should. My parents never made a big deal out of it, neither did anyone else and so I grew up thinking that it was acceptable.

    *Note: Choice may not neccesarily be the right word to use, but I'm going to stick wiht it for the next four paragraphs or so because it is the best word to use to convey the message I want to convey*

    The difference between pedophillia, beasitality, homosexuality (or bisexuality) and heterosexuality is this.

    Pedophillia: demeans and degrades the children on whom it is performed. It gives them life long scars and hurts them very badly. Simply it isn't their choice. Instead they are hurt, by people they should be able to trust. Talk to victims of abuse and they will tell you about how hurtful it was and still is.

    Beastiality: Again, it is never the animal's choice. It is the humans, in this situation. I could say that it degrades and hurts the animal, but I don't know....(not being able to talk to them :p ) I can only assume it does.

    Homosexuality: Here, it purely becomes the choice between two consenting people. They chose to do it, they don't hurt any body else. If it is between two consenting people then what (honestly) is the difference between that and heterosexuality?

    Heterosexuality: Here, it purely becomes the choice between two consenting people. They chose to do it, they don't hurt any body else. If it is between two consenting people then what (honestly) is the difference between that and homosexuality?

    The only difference between the last two it the choice of partnar. One group feels attracted to members of the opposite sex and the other set feels attracted to members of their own sex.

    As for people flaunting it in public, I have seen more cases of heterosexuals flaunting their sex, life and choices in the public eye then I have ever seen homosexuals. The difference? Homosexual's stand out to us, because every day we see the sexual choice that heterosexual's make flauted in public whether it be television, movies, magazines or just simply walking down the street. So when we see something different it stands out and is noticable.

    As for the getting cracked onto. I've had one girl crack onto me (one of my good friends, who I politely told her 'no'). I've also watched my boyfriend being cracked onto by many gay guys. He finds it amusing, I take it as a great compliment (WoW! Someone else finds him attractive too!) I have the same reaction when a girl cracks onto him (which often happens as well). My boyfriend always polietly tells them no and they usually accept that and keep talking or leave.

    Okay, I think I'm going to turn my rant mode off now and go away and calm down before I go to work.

    Kit
  5. LittleLadyVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2000
    star 4
    Why would someone choose to be gay? It doesn't make sense. Why would someone want to be descriminated against and hated.

    And how could someone choose what sexually arouses them? Can someone one day decide "I want to be attracted to kangaroos" and all of a sudden they are?

    When I was about 12 I realized that I was attracted to both men and women. It scared the hell out of me and I couldn't tell anyone. I still haven't been able to tell my family and only a few of my friends. I thought I was a freak and that I would go to hell. At one point I considered suicide.

    I didn't choose to be bisexual, just like none of you chose what you are. I'm pretty sure it's genetic in my case at least. I wasn't abused and I certainly don't hate men. I consider myself very feminine, so I don't have a problem with my gender identity. I was just born with the ability to find beauty in both genders. Maybe I'm just lucky.


  6. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    "I'm bored... I need a hobby. Maybe I'll become gay. It's either that or bowling."

    *snicker*

    Those who claim that homosexuality is a choice have always confused me. Was their heterosexualy a choice? Did they one day sit down with themselves and say, "Okay, I am deciding to only be attracted to members of the opposite sex!"

    I doubt it. Sexual and emotional feelings are generally beyond our realm of control.

    As for those who say things to the effect of "I don't care what someone does in their bedroom as long as they keep it private" - I agree: But if we're going to make that assertion, shouldn't it extent to heterosexuals as well?

    If I'm on the subway, I have no desire to see a couple shoving their tongues down each others' throats - I don't care what the gender combination may be.
  7. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    LittleLadyVader - I for one think that you are lucky. ;c)
  8. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    It's my personal belief that people essentially ARE bi, and only eons of socialization has managed to change that. After all, why would men care about the existence of gays if they weren't tempted? The ones here who don't care have had gays hit on them, and they didn't have a huge crisis of faith and almost go along with it.

    Studies have continuously shown over the years that the majority of adult males have had at least one homosexual experience. I thought this was a generally acknowledged fact - the old "experimented during college, but it didn't mean anyrthing" joke.

    Also, if men crave oral and anal sex with women (a trend that's risen in recent years, according to studies, if we can trust them), why wouldn't they find men tempting? In the case of those acts, the other men DO have the proper equipment.

    As for lesbians, no one's ever as incensed about them. How hypocritical is that?

    IMHO, it all boils down to this: we are a heavily patriarchal society and we worship male genitalia. We have celebrate it with phallic steeples and phallic Washington Monuments, and phallic guns.... basically, it's an issue of national concern where male genitalia is being stuck, but no one values female genitalia enough to get all nosy about what's being put in it, or by whom. It's only there for the production of offspring.

    And no, this is not a feminist or anti-male rant - it's simply a logical conclusion (though not the only one, I'm sure) as to what sort of thinking centuries of patriarchy implant in a people's subconcious thinking.
  9. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    TreeCave, too true.

    As a gay man, I've noticed an interesting trend: The guys who are flattered when I mention that they are attractive, seem to be your average heterosexuals who are comfortable with their own sexuality.

    The guys who are offended and show a front of being disgusted, more often than not, hit on me the second no one else is in the room.

    It's been my experience that the more one protests against something, the more they seem to be fixated on it.

    A simple, "Hey, I appreciate the compliment, but I'm straight" seems a hell of a lot more sincere and self-confident than, "What the hell? Get away from me, you queer!"

    If you're confident in your heterosexuality, gay men shouldn't be seen as a threat.
  10. Jedi_123 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2002
    I accept people being homophobic.

    There is always one type of person out there you can't stand or dislike.

    There is no such thing as peace and loving everyone. You can't do that.


    There is always one kind of person you really dispise.
  11. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Treecave: Well put! That is one of the most well thought out comments I have read so far!

    Have you noticed that the same-sex partenarships that people have problems with are normally the ones that occur in their own sex?

    I mean, the homophobic guys I know generally have a problems with gay men, but not with lesbians. While the homophobic girls I know, generally have a problem with lesbian relationships but not gay-guy ones. I've also noticed that girls generally seem to have less issues anyway when it comes to that sort of thing.

    Note: This is only in my experiance. It might not be true for all cases!

    However, it is also off topic...

    Kit
  12. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I think it comes down to the fact that most people do not enjoy thinking about sexual acts of which they would not like to be a part.

    Most heterosexual guys would want no part in sexual relations with another guy and thus, the topic of male homosexuality instantly conjures up these displeasing images of male-male sexual union.

    Most heterosexual women are turned off by the thought of being with another woman and thus, the mention of lesbians may bother them.

    But let's be fair, this doesn't only apply to heterosexuals. I've been working for years to get my boyfriend over his senseless vaginaphobia. The thought of having sex with a woman repulses him. Still, I've never heard him speak illy of heterosexuals in general. He's never muttered "damn breeders..." under his breath.
  13. AJA Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 1998
    star 4
    I think it might be in the interest of homosexual advocates to realize that making this common glib assertion that the only reason anyone would find fault with their lifestyle is that they're "secretly tempted" is not going to do anything to reduce the hostility towards them that already exists.

    There is such a thing as moral and religious belief, as well as the simple objective observation that the small intestine was clearly not designed by nature to function as a sexual orifice.

    People have been documented attempting to have sex with every conceiveable object, animate or inanimate, at one time or another in human history. They've also engaged in cannibalism and human sacrifice. What it comes down to from a practical standpoint is that there's no law against being a pervert, as long as you don't mess with little kids. You should be satisfied with that, and stop telling other people what they're supposed to think about it.
  14. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "the small intestine was clearly not designed by nature to function as a sexual orifice."

    Neither was the mouth. You think oral sex is a perversion too? What about a man having anal sex with a woman?
  15. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    If I'm on the subway, I have no desire to see a couple shoving their tongues down each others' throats - I don't care what the gender combination may be.

    Agreed. I don't understand why any homosexual would use the right to suck face in public without being stared or glared at as a way to further acceptance or any 'understanding' about them. A little modesty and decorum is good for everyone, not just gays.

    What about a man having anal sex with a woman?

    It's still an intestine and still not designed for sex. Why even heteros do it is beyond me, although I can only speak for being on the 'receiving end'. No thanks.

    Neither was the mouth. You think oral sex is a perversion too?

    What WAS the mouth designed for? We can eat with it, talk with it, drink with it, kiss with it, hold things with/in it, moisten things with it and suck the poison out of a snakebite with it. Like the hands, and unlike genitalia, it's a multi-purpose tool. However, among heteros, oral sex is normally a small component of the act, if at all, and among homos it often is the main event. This is fine for the pleasure principle, but obviously it's not meant to replace sex for a reason: we'd have a lot tougher time propogating the species.

    Anyway, interesting points, Saint.
  16. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    "among heteros, oral sex is normally a small component of the act, if at all"

    Maybe for you ;)
  17. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
  18. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    Hmm.

    IMHO, you can be as homophobic as you wish to be and I don't give a darn.

    You can hate blacks as much as you want to and I don't give a darn.

    Just don't act on that hatred.

    Ethril is one cool dude and I like him, even though he has insulted my religion and my person. I find nothing wrong with gay people. No one sohuld be discriminated against for what gender they choose to have sex with.

    However, I am against homosexuality and I wish it didn't exist.

    IMHO, homosexuality is wrong.

    However, I will not judge homosexuals.

    They are human beings and deserve to be treated like humans.

    EDIT: Just a note. I feel no sexual attraction to males. I'm being honest.

    However, my attraction towards women is skyrocketing. Danged adolescence.
  19. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Does anyone else find it peculiar that Christian fundamentalists don't want us to police their thoughts on homosexuality... but they consistently strive to police everyone else's thoughts on religion, God and other subjects?
  20. Obi-Zahn Kenobi Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 1999
    star 7
    Does anyone find it peculiar that liberals make general stereotyping of fundamentalist Christians when they complain of fundamentalist Christians of doing the same thing?

    [face_plain]
  21. toochilled Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 2000
    star 5
    I have to echo Obi-Zahn's comments.

    People can have whatever views they want - it is the acting upon these views that brings trouble.
    Without diverse views society would be dull. Hell, we'd be stuck in Rousseu hell :p
  22. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Does anyone find it peculiar that liberals make general stereotyping of fundamentalist Christians when they complain of fundamentalist Christians of doing the same thing?

    Obi-Zahn, that's strange... I seem to remember the majority of Christian fundamentalists in these threads constantly voicing outward furor over issues concerning abortion, the pledge, sex, marriage, sexual preference and virtually every other aspect of personal choice that they just happen to disagree with... Pardon me for making a general association of the "moral policing" of America with the only active group of religious individuals whom I have ever witnessed engaging in such moral policing... notwithstanding whatever reactions this elicits from opposing groups. I am not saying you can't think whatever you want... you can live under the misconception that Aryans are Blond-haired and Blue-eyed, white supremacists for all I care (The joke being that I am Aryan.)... I'm just observing irony in the request of Christian fundamentalists to be allowed to think whatever they want, when the majority of them seem to also be disposed to believing the rest of us shouldn't be allowed to think for ourselves... but rather be spoonfed lessons of religion and morality... constantly preaching to us what to think.

    Personally, I believe extremism of any kind is rather obtuse... I am no more predisposed to say all men are really homosexuals deep down than I am predisposed to say homosexuality is wrong and evil.
  23. Ki-Adi Bundi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2000
    star 4
    I just hope that all these homophobic people don't ever have any children that happens to be homosexual.
  24. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    There is such a thing as moral and religious belief

    And I'm not stupid enough to waste my time plying religious folks with logic - logic being the antithesis of faith. You can believe what you want - I'm just pointing out to others how illogical it is.

    And I notice you neatly avoided my question about oral and anal sex with women. Now Saint has posed it too - the mouth was not designed to perform oral sex. Got any objections to that? Do you feel the same way about men you know who like to get oral and anal from their wives as you do toward gays? Because, with the reasons you've given, you should.

    However, among heteros, oral sex is normally a small component of the act, if at all, and among homos it often is the main event.

    Depends on the hetero! It's the main act for some couples, for reasons such as birth control, thinking it "doesn't count" and they're still saving themselves for marriage (LOL!), and that they just love it. I've talked to several guys who admit they prefer oral to anything else.

    Obi-Zahn, I think you may have misinterpreted SnowDog, or perhaps he should have been clearer - it seems you thought he was referring to people here on the boards, but I believe he was referring to the "policing activities" of such political groups as the Christian Coalition, and such debates as the Pledge of Allegiance controversy. In that context, he makes a good point: gays aren't trying to get "Snap, girlfriend!" made into the national motto. Christians, OTOH, have put "God" (Diana? Pan? Osiris? Allah? Who ARE they referring to, anyway? ;) ) onto currency, into pledges, etc. The two groups do not have the same modus operandii.

    And I'm sorry to pick on you because you're only one of many people who do this, but labelling people "liberals" (or anything else, for that matter) anytime they disagree with you is pathetic and laughable - or would you like to be labelled, say, "Limbaugh-lover" every time you say something I disagree with? I woudln't, because I neither know nor feel it's my business where you get your beliefs. You have every right to hate anyone, as long as you never take any action that could hurt them. But here's a newsflash: there are many many political schools of thought, even in the seemingly dichotomous US. Not every non-conservative is a "liberal" and vice versa. I am a philosophical anarchist who believes in less government than Republicans do, yet I'm labelled a "liberal" constantly on this board. It only makes those who do the labelling look ignorant.

    (And if your defense is that he was labelling you a Christian fundamentalist, that's your own paranoiac ego talking - you assumed he was talking about you.)
  25. anakin_girl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2000
    star 6
    "If a gay guy hit on you and wouldn't go away, then he is just an idiot - its personality, not sexual orientation. "

    Yeah, no kidding. And I've personally had more problems with straight males who would hit on me and not take "no" for an answer, than I've had with lesbians doing the same. If a lesbian hits on me, I don't have a problem with saying, "Thank you, but I'm not gay." What on earth is wrong with that? There's no need to get hostile. Like I said, the men have been the ones who wouldn't go away after being told that I wasn't interested.

    "Does anyone else find it peculiar that Christian fundamentalists don't want us to police their thoughts on homosexuality... but they consistently strive to police everyone else's thoughts on religion, God and other subjects? "

    Yeah, no kidding, Snowdog. 'I have the right to my religious beliefs--including those beliefs which state that I must try to forcibly convert you.'
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