Racism wrong, Homophobia acceptable?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Jul 15, 2002.

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  1. Force-User Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2002
    star 1
    My credentials:

    My friends consist of the following:

    1 - straight guy.

    4 - gay guys.

    2 - lesbians.

    In my wedding, I had 1 gay guy as one of my groomsmen, 2 gay guys were the wedding coordinators, 1 gay guy was the florist.

    I love watching Christopher Lowell and I love to go dancing as often as possible.

    Now, having said that, I'm also a Conservative Christian.

    How do the two lifestyles mix? Simple. My gay friends are just my friends and I don't judge their life and they don't judge me.

    But they know my feelings that Homosexuality is a choice and one that is different from Race.

    I believe Race is a fundamentally different issue than Homosexuality since there is clear proof that people can change their sexual preference depending on the emotional state of their lives.

    Three-quarters of the Gay people I know, where once Straight and also went back and forth a couple of times. One girl I know was straight, then became a Lesbian, then is straight again. And now, she says she is not bisexual because the definition of bisexual is someone who likes both sexes at the same time in their life. This girl only likes men now and is not in the least attracted by women.

    So sexuality is a funny thing and changes sometimes as often as does the direction of the wind. Race does not.

    Therefore, Race is something that can and should be protected under law while sexual preferences should no more protection than cell phone carrier perferences.
  2. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    So, according to your logic, its perfectly ok for people to demonstrate their hate to people with a sexual preference they disagree with??

    The choice/genetics thing is something that can't be proven one way or another at the moment. Just like the religion thing can't be proven. The people you give examples of just sound very messed up about their own sexual preferences. Most of the time, people stay with their sexual preference from puberty to the day they die.

    Are you also saying the only reasion coloured people have their civil rights is because they can't change the colour of their skin? Say they could change the colour of their skin. Say back during the civil rights movement, a black man had the ability to change his skin colour. Would he? Should he change the very basis of who he is just to fit the majourity idea of whats acceptbale??
  3. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Whoa! Looks like we may not be done here yet...
  4. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    In my wedding, I had 1 gay guy as one of my groomsmen, 2 gay guys were the wedding coordinators, 1 gay guy was the florist.

    That's all fairly spiffy, but be realistic - is there REALLY a straight male florist on the planet? You can't very well gloat about having a gay one. That's like saying "Of course I love black people - all my favorite basketball players are black!" ;c)

    I love watching Christopher Lowell and I love to go dancing as often as possible.

    Hehehehe. As annoyed as I am by the stereotypical gay mannerisms, I have to agree that I can't bring myself to be bothered by Mr Lowell. I think part of it is that while he's flaming all about that stage, you know that the little old women in the audience are thinking, "He's such a nice young man: Why isn't he married?"

    Now, having said that, I'm also a Conservative Christian. How do the two lifestyles mix? Simple. My gay friends are just my friends and I don't judge their life and they don't judge me.

    We definitely need more such friendships in the world. I tip my hat to you.

    But they know my feelings that Homosexuality is a choice and one that is different from Race.

    This is where we get into murkier waters. I'll agree that sexuality is keenly different from race as it involves actions rather than appearence, but I don't think that this automatically makes it a choice. True, the actions themselves *are* choices and there is no way to deny that, but the instinct and drive to act upon these feelings... I can't really see how they would be a choice.

    I believe Race is a fundamentally different issue than Homosexuality since there is clear proof that people can change their sexual preference depending on the emotional state of their lives.

    Erm... What is this "clear proof"? Personally, I see sexuality as somewhat fluid. Personal preferences can change from day to day, but I would assert that they always stay within the basic range of one's Kinsey Scale level.

    Three-quarters of the Gay people I know, where once Straight and also went back and forth a couple of times.

    I don't know the people that you know, so it is impossible for me to properly comment on their sexuality, but when you say that anyone was "once straight" I raise an eyebrow. The problem with these kinds of assumptions is that we are taking for granted that someone is always being honest about their sexuality. I'm sure that you might be tempted to say that I was once straight, as I had a girlfriend for four years before I ever dated any guys. At that point, my actions were entirely heterosexual, but my thoughts were most certainly not.

    One girl I know was straight, then became a Lesbian, then is straight again. And now, she says she is not bisexual because the definition of bisexual is someone who likes both sexes at the same time in their life. This girl only likes men now and is not in the least attracted by women.

    Once again, I can see what you mean, but only she truly knows what is going on in her head or what was going on when she made all these changes. Perhaps she was always straight and merely wanted to rebel for a while. Perhaps she had emotional attachments to certain women and, though not a lesbian, acted on them out of love. Perhaps she is bisexual in the sense that she is open to any possibility, but tends to be more into guys. Who knows? Only she does. Either way, I think slapping labels on anyone simply because of whom they have and are dating is a bit precarious.

    So sexuality is a funny thing and changes sometimes as often as does the direction of the wind. Race does not.

    Sure race changes. Look at Michael Jackson. ;c)

    Seriously, though: I agree with you that sexuality is not something that is as fixed as race. At the same time, I do not feel that it is something that can be controlled. The majority of gay guys TRY to change it in adolescence. As they begin to go through puberty and have these feelings, they try their hardest to repress them. If sexualit
  5. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    EDIT - this post is not aimed at you, Force user - you don't sound like a bigot from what you said. By "bigot" I mean people who have a vested emotional interest in seeing things their way only. This post just evolved from issues that came up surrounding yours.
    -----------------------------------------

    okay, I see no difference between racism and homophobia even if homosexuality IS a choice, and you know why?

    Because mixed blacks who can pass for white are encouraged to do so. I have two cousins whose father was black and mother white. One is clearly mixed, the other totally could pass for Anglo when she has no tan. They were raised in Southern Baptist private schools, and given the idea that it was RIGHT for them to try to pass as white, as their African heritage was somethiing to be ashamed of.

    So, from the perspective of the bigot, they will claim race is a choice whenever they can - with much stretching and amusing logic - make that claim, AND demand that people choose the "right" race. So with homosexuality, since one can always go in the closet and pretend to be straight, they will never become convinced by ANY evidence you prsent them that it's not a choice.

    I'm not wording this well. What I'm saying is that, as soon as we have skin dyes that can change your race, the bigots will lambast people for "choosing" to be the race they were born. It's all very convenient logic, and this is why bigots need to be lined up against walls and shot - you're never going to be able to teach them anything because they're determined to remain stupid.
  6. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Line them up against the wall and shoot them? No way, that's not as much fun as finding a way to make them wake up one day to find that they are black homosexuals. Now THAT would be fun!
  7. stevo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2001
    star 4
    If you want to line up biggots and shoot them, doesn't that destroy your argument? Causing harm to anybody is no way to find a solution.

  8. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    I love watching Christopher Lowell and I love to go dancing as often as possible.

    I'm sorry, but that guy is the worst decorator on the planet. UGH!
  9. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    I love watching Christopher Lowell and I love to go dancing as often as possible.

    I'm sorry, but that guy is the worst decorator on the planet. UGH!



    Sorry, that title is already held by Hildi from Trading spaces!
  10. chibiangi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 4
    Heh.

    What is with all of these decorating shows that do horrible jobs? Have you seen the British version called "Changing Rooms"? It is *really* bad. I watch them just to see what horrific things they will come up with!
  11. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Just thought I would share an interesting confrontation that happened this morning.

    I live in Harlem and every morning, I go for a walk through Central Park. Today, as I was walking back to my apartment, I hear someone yell, "You in the wrong place with that hair, faggot!" (My hair is currently fire engine red and jet black)

    I just kept on walking, hoping that I could get to my apartment before anything happened, but - no luck. The guy had charged across the street and was right in front of me. He gave me a shove and said, "You hear me, faggot?"

    I'm thinking, "What the hell? It's only 7:15am and this guy is already up, giving people a hard time? Aren't the sanctioned times for gay-bashing between 10pm and 2am? Did this guy even read his hatred memo?

    I started thinking of a snide remark, but realized that that would probably only get me in more trouble and certainly wouldn't get me out of the trouble I was in. By the time I had come to this conclusion, he had shoved me again.

    There was a little kid, maybe 7 or 8 years old who was filling up a bucket at an open fire hydrant (believe it or not, the movies don't lie - this is the premier way to cool off in Harlem). He stopped what he was doing and timidly saidm "Hey, mister - leave 'im alone."

    "Little man, this a f***n' queer." the guy said and went on on some diatribe that I didn't hear because I was trying to think of ways to get out of this. I couldn't fight the guy. He was huge and most probably armed, at least with a knife. There were no cops around, and even if there were, I didn't really feel like playing the poor innocent white guy giving the cops even more excuses to racially profile.

    The kid dropped his bucket and ran into the corner store.

    "There goes my only ally", I thought.

    I figured that the best thing to do would be to pretend that I couldn't speak English. I don't exactly know why this seemed like the best idea, but for some reason it did. I thought that if I could confuse him enough, he might leave me alone and also; funky hair might seem less homosexual in a foreign context.

    Anyway, before I could impliment this <sarcasm>genius</sarcasm> plan, the little kid emerged from the corner store, flanked by the local slam rappers whose names I happen to know are (I kid you not) Kool and T-Dawg.

    I don't know these two, personally, but T-Dawg and I once had a great conversation at the deli counter about Fat Albert - for the record, T can do the best impersonation of Mushmouth that I've ever heard. At any rate, these two thugs were the ones who started calling me "Blue Meanie" when I first moved into this neighborhood. At the time, my hair was blue and I could never figure out if they were making fun of me or being nice.

    What followed reaffirmed my faith in humanity.

    I can't begin to transcribe what was actually said because it was said in improvisational rap, which let me just tell you is a beautiful art form when it appears out of nowhere and saves your ass from a tough man gangsta.

    All that I remember was something about "You just as bad as a racist" and "Blue Meanie one of us."

    Both of them got right in his face, bouncing rhymes off of each other and he pushed them away, and walked back across the street, saying, "Sh**... Motherf***n' fag-lovers, yo."

    Screw the bloody Pride parade, I'm gonna join my homies in the next million man march.

  12. Ki-Adi Bundi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2000
    star 4
    Phew, that was a close, eh?
  13. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Great story. Can't help but wonder what would have happened if those guys weren't there. Don't worry about it, there are idiots that pick on everybody.
  14. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Tell me about it...

    I've always found it odd that black people could be homophobic - you would think that they would have a much more keen concept of the pitfalls of bigotry than most. Of course, this was just one isolated idiot and he was obviously outnumbered by the open-minded peeps in this "hood". Yeah, it was a scary experience, but also an enlightening and hopeful one. Anytime a group is vying for acceptance, it's always best to have allies who aren't really a part of that group.
  15. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, I don't even want to think about what would have happened if they weren't there. I remember thinking that if I was to get the crap beat out of me, I could deal with it as long as my hands weren't permanently damaged - I need to be able to type to make my living, so I was very concerned about that.

    No matter, though. I've been informed that Kool and T-Dawg "got my back", so I think I don't have much to worry about.
  16. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    I don't know. I have worked with several black people and it has been my experience that they tend to be more racist than anglos.


    I have actually seen one, whom I no longer work with thank you very much, complain about being held down by the white man and in the very next breath speak ill of someone because they weren't as black as she.
  17. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I really don't share your experience, Maveric; though I don't doubt that there are plenty of black people with that kind of mentality.

    Generally, I have found black people to be some of the most accepting, friendly people out there. Certainly, I was concerned when I moved in here: I was suddenly in the very obvious minority in my neighborhood. But it wasn't long before I was made to feel right at home. I'm quite obviously white, almost albino but with the exception of el Jerko this morning, no one has ever been anything but kind to neighbors and visitors of all races.
  18. Maveric Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1999
    star 4
    Well, I am just glad that that situation turned out as it did. It could have been a lot worse for you.
  19. Force-User Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2002
    star 1
    KaineDamo:

    So, according to your logic, its perfectly ok for people to demonstrate their hate to people with a sexual preference they disagree with??

    Define, "demonstrate".


    The choice/genetics thing is something that can't be proven one way or another at the moment. Just like the religion thing can't be proven.

    If you use empirical data, you can prove both.

    The latest attempt to tie homosexuality to genes came up empty back in 1999 in a research by George Rice of the University of Western Ontario in Londo, Canada. It was published in April, 1999's edition of the magazine, Science.


    The people you give examples of just sound very messed up about their own sexual preferences. Most of the time, people stay with their sexual preference from puberty to the day they die.

    A study published a number of years ago reported that 84% of male homosexuals changed their sexual orientation at least once, 60 percent twice, 32 percent three times, and 13 percent at least five times. Additionally, the study reported that 74% of homosexual men admitted to having been sexually attracted to females, and 80% of lesbians stated that they had been sexually attracted to males.


    Are you also saying the only reasion coloured people have their civil rights is because they can't change the colour of their skin? Say they could change the colour of their skin. Say back during the civil rights movement, a black man had the ability to change his skin colour. Would he? Should he change the very basis of who he is just to fit the majourity idea of whats acceptbale??

    If someone could change the color of their skin, do you think this would be an issue at all? Can we stick to reality, please?
  20. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    The latest attempt to tie homosexuality to genes came up empty back in 1999 in a research by George Rice of the University of Western Ontario in Londo, Canada. It was published in April, 1999's edition of the magazine, Science.

    This is true. Linking genes to behavioral traits has always been problematic at best. There is a gene, labeled the "gay gene" by the media and not by scientist that nearly all homosexual men seem to sport. However, a small amount of heterosexual subjects also have this gene.

    The problem that arises is that it is impossible to tell if the heterosexual subjects are actually heterosexual or if they are simply concealing their sexuality. Researchers more or less have to take their word for it, which doesn't make for very accurate science.

    Furthermore, there have been many examples of twin studies wherein one twin was gay and one was straight: As these two individuals have identical genetics, this would seem to indicate that if homosexuality is indeed genetic, certain environmental pr physiological factors must "activate" the gene through protiens.

    More perplexing in these studies is the fact that most identical twins are raised in a close to identical environment, which also seems to rule out the idea that homosexuality is caused by environmental factors - at least as far as twin research goes, findings would seem to indicate that if such factors are the cause, they must be minute factors: experiences that impacted only one of the twins.

    We do know that gay guys tend to be grouped on the mother's side of the family, suggesting, check that - suggesting that it is an inherited condition passed only through the female DNA: Of course, there is no proof of this - One has to consider other factors such as environment, physiology, etc which could also cause such a grouping.

    We DO know with certainty that homosexual men tend to have enlarged cell clusters and glands in the brain: Of course, we still don't know if this causes homosexuality or is caused by it.

    The fact of the matter is that, at least at this point, we seem to have no way to say with certainty if homosexuality is genetic, inherited, or caused by environmental factors.

    A study published a number of years ago reported that 84% of male homosexuals changed their sexual orientation at least once, 60 percent twice, 32 percent three times, and 13 percent at least five times. Additionally, the study reported that 74% of homosexual men admitted to having been sexually attracted to females, and 80% of lesbians stated that they had been sexually attracted to males.

    I would really like to read this study, as I have never heard anything of the sort. How is a change in sexuality observed? How do they define it? If a gay guy sleeps with a woman, does that mean that he has changed his sexuality?

    Once again, the problem arises that the only person who truly knows the truth is the subject: We have to take their word for it and that isn't accurate science.

    If someone could change the color of their skin, do you think this would be an issue at all? Can we stick to reality, please?

    No, I think this is a fair point - the gist being that homosexuals have the option to be in the closet and maintain a straight identity before society. People have no way to hide their race. It may be a hypothetical argument, but I would say that it is a valid one.

    I've known some black people who said that they wished they could "turn white" because it would make their lives easier. Not because they were ashamed of who they were, but because it would make it easier to get a job, to buy a car, to go into a convenience store without the clerk fearing a hold-up.

    If people COULD change the color of their skin, then much like homosexuality, race would be labeled as a choice and the debate would be similar to the one that we are having now.
  21. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Crwn, what a great, heartening story. Sorry you had to go through it, though.

    I have seen the black racism Maveric's talking about - in the South. And in that case, I interpreted it as just "continuing the abuse cycle" so to speak. Anglos, Jews and Latinos have strong anti-black racism, so in frustration they turn on each other.

    But in other areas, where racism is not as all-encompassing an issue, blacks have been more accepting of everyone than any other group I know. Then again, I have the unusual opinion that certain Latinos are even more bigoted than the worst Anglos. In my experience, Mexican men in particular often harrass women of all races, blacks, Anglos, Protestants.... they must only like each other.

    I don't "expect" this behavior from every Mexican man I meet, of course, and many are the exception. It's just something I've noticed repeatedly, and mostly in Southern California.
  22. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    In my experience, Mexican men in particular often harrass women of all races, blacks, Anglos, Protestants.... they must only like each other.

    I noticed this when living in Phoenix as well. I also tried not to lump them all into this catagory, but I moved out of a predominatly Hispanic area of town once in order to get away from them. I stood out like a sore thumb living there, and simply walking to the store at the corner was like running a gauntlet. I hated them for making me hate them, if that makes any sense. :(
  23. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    TeeBee, it makes sense to me. I mean, given that most people try to conform to a set behavior (cultural, religious, ethnic, whatever), it's impossible NOT to notice when the conformed behavior is ugly. It's a natural defense to reflexively react to the next person you see who visibly fits into a comformed stereotype you've had a bad experience with. Consciously reminding yourself not to judge INDIVIDUALS by conformed group behavior is the only way to avoid being a bigot.

    As a kid, I thought I was immune to bigotry because my mother taught me better. But I found out as I got older that you DO catch yourself drawing conclusions - some harmless, some not - about groups of people.

    Even the current discussion on gays, we keep having to distinguish between different sort of gay behaviors.






    And on the subject of more specific orientation concepts... I don't think all gays have the same orientation anymore than I think all hets do. For example, some gay men I know seem to like femininity - they emulate it, date someone who emulates it, and/or play the feminine to a boyfriend's masculine. But a few others I've known seem to have an issue against femininity, and I doubt they could stand bedding women if they WERE heterosexual. (I worked briefly for a temp company run by a gay man who could not even speak to females on the phone - naturally, he and his lovers were "butch").

    I mean, when I go out to Santa Monica Blvd for Halloween - the biggest gay-fest I've ever been around, LOL - I feel such an imbalance of high testosterone. It's a very male, male, male event. Nothing effeminate about it, except that I'm not expecting to be sexually harrassed, like I might at a sporting event attended by a 98% male audience.
  24. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    I mean, when I go out to Santa Monica Blvd for Halloween - the biggest gay-fest I've ever been around, LOL - I feel such an imbalance of high testosterone. It's a very male, male, male event. Nothing effeminate about it, except that I'm not expecting to be sexually harrassed, like I might at a sporting event attended by a 98% male audience.

    That's interesting because it's exactly the opposite for me, for obvious reasons. I avoid gay events most likely for the same reasons that you might avoid sporting events.
  25. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I find the word homophobia, and gay to be offensive. Gay means you're happy. If you're happy you don't look at a gender in a sexual way. Unless you're intoxicated. And if you're a homophobe, you're afraid of humans. Homosapien <~~ Wise Human. Also, and I apologize if this offensive. I wonder who the genius was who used these terms for homosexuals? Wouldn't homosexual work just as good as gay? And while we're at it. Homosapien means wise human, I know quite a few people who wouldn't be listed in this catagory. In fact, they're not really up there IQ wise either. What would you call them?
    Can't these people come up with anything better? I'm going to call these intellectually challenged people, homounsapiens.

    Back onto topic, to the statement made to me, no, I'm not making excuses for bashing homosexuals. What I'm saying is that was one of the causes. Being flamboyant makes you sort of an easy target for homophobes. I think GLAAD is also an exploitive left-wing group which further degrades the homosexual cause. Because most of what they're fighting issues that homosexuals(the ones I know at least) don't care about. They talk about freedom for homosexuals yet they wanna restrict freedom for everyone else, the stuff they deem 'offensive'.


    Racism is also a bad thing. But you can see race. You can see when someone of color is being abused. I think why people are homophobes also is because you don't know who's a homosexual and who isn't. See, people fear what they can't see, that's what a phobe is, an unrational fear, well where does fear come from? It comes from ignorance, of not knowing who's gay and who's straight. It also comes from insecurity in ones own sexual preference. Also a form of not knowing, knowing whether you're a homosexual or if you're a heterosexual. It's very confusing and fearful. I know plenty who are homophobes and that's what I've deducted. What do you think?


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