Racism wrong, Homophobia acceptable?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Lord Bane, Jul 15, 2002.

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  1. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    DARTHMOM10: I can't remember exactly which reference... but it was an anthropological one. You could do a search on the internet I suppose.
  2. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I should have made it clear - I am not Christian and don't agree with the Baptist platform on homosexuality (or much else in life). I just think they're a good example of a reasonable church practicing good Christianity - the Southern Baptists, on the other hand... well, I have nothing positive to say about them.

    This is interesting... I have a few comments to make - first of all, I am both gay AND have two different colored eyes. Yeesh! God really must have it out for me!

    I assure you, if there is a god, I am his pet torture project. ;)

    The "counseling" thing I also had mixed feelings about, but I just meant it was a reasonable approach for them, as they were only inflicting it in members or people who wanted to become members. For gay Christians, I'd recommend the Methodist branch of the religion - they accept anybody, not unlike that guy the religion was named after. :D

    As for "apostasy", I must say that this makes no sense to me. Wouldn't this concept blatantly contradict the parable of the prodigal son?

    Oh, this is one of those fairly complex ideas that could take up its own topic. But the crux is that you truly, deeply, sincerely accepted Christ, and now with equal conviction are leaving him behind. (Very few Christians who become atheists, even, would qualify for this the way our church explained it.)

    TreeCave, I find it interesting that you would choose those examples from the Bible to support your argument and/or stance.

    That was not MY stance. I was explaining the Baptist stance, what I was taught in church and by scholars. In response to AG's question about what bug is in the Southern Baptists' bonnet.

    Anyway, I'm not quite following you. I was showing why my church felt the "homosexual" acts of Soddom and Gemorrah might bear little relation to the homosexuality of today. So I'm not sure how it's germaine to my point that those people were Baal worshippers.
  3. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    Thanks Darth_SnowDog for letting me know. I'll keep checking on it myself and see what else I can find. I usually like to keep track of informatoin sources for future reference or debate purposes (like this one). It helps with 'credibility' issues that I've had arise from previous conversations. If I find anything like it, I'll send the info to you via a PM. :)

    TreeCave - "not unlike that guy the religion was named after." Are you talking about the Baha'i religion? I think that is the one who was founded by a man of the same name ... is that correct? ?[face_plain]

    "That was not MY stance. I was explaining the Baptist stance, what I was taught in church and by scholars. In response to AG's question about what bug is in the Southern Baptists' bonnet."

    I was raised Southern Baptist, although I do not attend a Southern Baptist church now. I do not ever remember hearing about anyone in that religious organizational branch ever saying anything like what you said. Where were you "taught in church and by scholars"? ... I'm just wondering.

    I am currently checking with a few Biblical scholars and ministers (Baptist) that I know to see if they are aware of any Baptist church organization who has that stance. I think there are a few who view homosexuality as 'okay', but I don't think they are associated with the Baptist branch of Christianity (Southern or Independent Baptist). Then again, it varies from church to church. :)

    Also, keeping along the Baptist Christian line, I was wondering if you could clarify some things. What exactly did you mean by this statement: "Beyond that, I was taught that the specific instances of homosexuality in the Bible were orgies (like Saddam and Gemorrah) performed in worship of other gods (Baal, in that instance). These were heterosexuals engaging in homosexuality to worship Baal. Now, to have homosexual sex when you're heterosexual IS perverse - it's going against your own nature. So doing that just for kicks would be wrong to Baptists."

    Are you saying they are bad, wrong, or sinful? Are you saying that its okay to commit homosexuality if your a homosexual, but that heterosexuals shouldn't? Where exactly do bisexuals fit into this? And what exactly did you mean by "nature"?

    "I was showing why my church felt the "homosexual" acts of Soddom and Gemorrah might bear little relation to the homosexuality of today." I think you are more or less illustrating how "one" church feels about homosexuality of today verses that mentioned in the Bible. Again, as you mentioned, not every church (Christian or otherwise I might add) has the same view on several issues, not just homosexuality (via your Methodists reference).

    "So I'm not sure how it's germaine to my point that those people were Baal worshippers." It's probably not ...

    Anyway, I'm not quite following you. Neither am I apparently ...

    I would like to add at this time that it is not my intention to offend or disrespect anyone here. I have read all of the pages posted here and have discovered that although there were oppossing viewpoints at the beginning of this thread, there are now mainly concurring opinions. And those whose opinions were not along the lines of 'complete and total acceptance' were silenced into oblivion.

    For myself, I am more interested in clarity of someone's opinion. I may not agree with all that someone says, believes, or does, but I can at least hear them out and respect them for their opinion and as a fellow human being. And I try to do so without malice, hatred, anger, or completely stomping out someone else's beliefs or opinions. I have found that if you want respect, you must respect others. Now, not everyone is going to show you respect ... I'll give you that one. But, are we suppossed to treat people the way we want to be treated or should we treating people the way we are or have been treated? I think some people are treating people the way they have been treated. All I
  4. yodafett999 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2000
    star 4
    Heh, DarthMom, I think he was talking about Christ. His sentence began, "For gay Christians...".

  5. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
  6. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I was referring to Christ - a slightly tongue-in-cheek reference to how Christians too often think they must shun "sinners", whereas Jesus did lunch with them :) (it's not what goes into you that defiles you, but what comes out - paraphrasing the verse, as I don't like quoting one version over another.

    The Christianity questions are taking things way off topic, and I'm sorry I brought it up. I will address only my qualifications to speak on the subject - the rest is out there, to be researched on the net by anyone interested. DarthMom, I'm sorry you wanted more clarification than I'm giving, but I'm so jaded from being dragged into ambushes by supposed Christians on these boards.

    My father attended Duke University and a seminary also in NC. I was fascinated by it all from as early as I can remember. My father maintained a large library of Christian scholarly texts, which I studied extensively, and discussed with him and my more insightful and intelligent mother. I also had access to all the literature published by the American Baptist Association, keeping ministers up to date on platforms (for lack of a better term) that had been adopted at conferences, so I had some familiarity with the church's official positions, even though many ministers chose to preach their own ideas: dark skin is the Mark of Cain, for example, or only Christians go to heaven. This was back in the 70's and 80's, so today's church may not believe in "love the sinner, hate the sin" anymore. Concepts like that and the Cosmic Christ are virtually absent in modern Christianity, unfortunately, despite how Biblically sound they are. Jesus has left the building.

    But let's get back on topic. :)
  7. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    "The Christianity questions are taking things way off topic." So did the postings about women getting paid less, getting less respect, anthropological decent and society models and definitions, the masculanization of women, etc. I agree with you that the topic has gone a little astray, but I was just trying to understand where you were coming from. It was not my intention to upset or frustrate you in any way. I'm sorry 'bout that. Also, thank you for the information pertaining to your 'sources' and religious education ... It was (ummmm) interesting and informative.

    "I'm so jaded from being dragged into ambushes by supposed Christians on these boards."
    I won't touch that one if its okay with you. :)

    "This was back in the 70's and 80's, so today's church may not believe in "love the sinner, hate the sin" anymore." I did inquire with several ministers in my local area and with the pastor my former church. It's funny that you would mention that line because he, as did two other ministers this afternoon, said the exact same thing to me on the phone: "Love the sinner, hate the sin."

    Maybe there are some Christians who are 'fundamentalists' and who act in ways that are contrary to what Jesus told us to. But it seems that some who truly ARE Christians are being put into the same lot with those who blow-up abortion clinics, murder abortion doctors, and beat up and/or murder people because of their skin color, religion, and/or sexual preferences. Not ALL Christians are like that. Some Christians don't take the time to think about what is being said to realize that they are not in that "other" grouping. [face_plain]

    I didn't find a single pastor (Baptist, Independent Baptist - 3 total, Church of Christ, and one Synagogue - conservative) who said that homosexuality is not acceptable by any means, but that we are not to "judge" homosexuals or any other person for any sin they may commit at any time. That is "God's job", so to speak. The pastor of my old church was the first one I called and he also added that if the person is claiming to be a Christian but hurting or insulting someone for whatever reason, they are not "true Christians" and they obviously don't know the word of God, nor are they saved. Now, the local "Independent Fundamental Church" (yes ... that's how it's listed in the phone book! I couldn't believe that!) was a completely different story. I guess I know what church to NOT go to when I do go back to church. FYI: They don't believe in "Love the sinner, hate the sin." [face_plain]

    "Jesus has left the building."
    That may be your opinion and/or belief, however, that can be debated a lot more, you know. Anytime you mention 'religion' in any context, form, question, statement, or whatever, you are opening a wide door that may never close because their are so many people who believe so strongly in spirituality of one form or another. But since you don't want to talk about it and considering this isn't the proper forum to, we'll drop it like you said we should. :)

    "But let's get back on topic."
    Good Luck with that! I thought people were suppossed to "debate" this issue (this is the JC Senate, is it not?) and people were suppossed to respond. For some people, many different factors come into play with what their opinions are: religion, personal experiences, education, friends, family, political beliefs/views, etc ... It's not always easy to stay on target! ;)
  8. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Also, thank you for the information pertaining to your 'sources' and religious education ... It was (ummmm) interesting and informative.

    Is there any reasonable way for me to take this but as extreme sarcasm, and an attempt to be smug?

    I presented a religious view of homosexuality as a "sin" that does NOT involve refusing to hire gays, refusing to be around them, accusing them of bringing AIDS down upon all of us, etc.... In other words I showed that REAL Christianity is not Jerry Falwell and Disney. And in the end, your ministers gave an aphoristic version of exactly what I said - love the sinner, hate the sin. I just went beyond the surface and explained what was taught to small children when they asked such questions as, "But does that mean they're going to hell even though we love them?"

    So you are demanding I PPOR that real Christianity is a good and loving religion that does not hate homosexuals. [face_laugh] Interesting... and informative.

    I could have made some great points about how hypocritical Christians are for allowing adulterers - who are actually breaking one of the 10 Commandments - to go along with no real repercussions, but turn around and condemn and ban homosexuals, who are violating rules important enough to be in the Bible, but not important enough to rate inclusion in the 10 Commandments. I could give examples out the wazoo of adulterers who received counseling, concern and loads of attention - even stories of their spouses pressured into "forgiving" them over and over.

    Instead I chose to say something positive. If that offends you, then I just can't imagine what I could say that would please you.
  9. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    "Also, thank you for the information pertaining to your 'sources' and religious education ... It was (ummmm) interesting and informative."
    That was not extreme sarcasm nor was it an attempt to be smug.

    Who claimed to be a Christian on this board that held the views that "involve refusing to hire gays, refusing to be around them, accusing them of bringing AIDS down upon all of us, etc"????? I'm sorry, but I must've missed a message or two. ?[face_plain]

    "So you are demanding I PPOR that real Christianity is a good and loving religion that does not hate homosexuals." The answer is "yes" and "no." No I'm not "demanding" anything. Yes Christianity is a loving religion. A "real" Christian would love the sinner and hate the sin. It is possible. I can still disagree with people or dislike what they are doing in/with their personal lives, but I still respect them as my fellow human beings who have ideas, hopes, fears, dreams, emotions, beliefs (religious or political or whatever), lifestyles, education, etc, etc, etc that are different from my own. And regardless of what other people may say or what "Bible" it is that you are reading, God loves EVERYONE. He simply HATES the sin. The pastor of my old church also said that in our conversation.

    Why is that so hard to believe? If anyone has a problem with excepting anyone else's opinions, it is you. I've read this entire thread several times and many of your posts were very hostile, cynical, and sarcastic towards one idea, person, belief, viewpoint, etc or another. But not to worry, you weren't the only one who was being that way. ;)

    And if I'm not mistaken, whose being hypocritical here? If you want someone to respect your opinion, don't you or shouldn't you respect theirs? Its a little far-fetched to ask someone to be tolerant of your beliefs and viewpoints when you won't or don't listen to theirs?

    And as far as I know, most Christians do not like or agree with adultery and do not say that it is "okay" in any way. Who are the Christians that you are talking to? I'm not aware of any Bible-believing person saying that it is okay. As an example, my friend from H.School was having problems in his marrage and although he wanted to go to counseling to see if there was any way to work things out, but his wife didn't. She filed for divorce and he actually went to the Bible to see what the deal was with divorce. She (his wife) had commited adultry and that (from the New Testiment and if I'm not mistaken, the Old Testiment as well) is 'excpetable' grounds for divorce via the Bible. If you need the Biblical verses, please let me know (but I'm sure that you have them already :) ).

    Also, if you have done your studies as you said that you have, then you know that Christians do not go "along with no real repercussions." They will face God and be held accountable for all of their actions ... ALL of them. No one gets away scot-free from God. Don't you know that? Even I will be held accountable for all my sins one day. But, for anyone to place "judgement" upon them and say they should be punished is wrong. It's one thing to say that someone is doing something wrong, but it's an entirely different thing to judge someone for that 'thing.'

    "I presented a religious view of homosexuality as a "sin""
    Not as far as I can tell .... You never came outright and stated it as a "sin." You stated that "homosexuality is not the natural state" that you learned from your church and you never answered my question about what the "natural" state was. You also never answered any of my questions: Are you saying they are bad, wrong, or sinful? Are you saying that its okay to commit homosexuality if your a homosexual, but that heterosexuals shouldn't? Where exactly do bisexuals fit into this? (Please see one of my earlier posts for the quote that you gave that pertains to my questions).

    Even if I am wrong (which wouldn't surprise me in the least), I'll sta
  10. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    Upon reflection as to the growing status of this thread, I wanted to let you know TreeCave that you do not have to answer any of the questions that I asked. I will simply accept your beliefs or opinions as you have already stated here and leave it at that. If you decide to answer them, that is fine. If you want to continue the discussion we were having, that is fine as well. :) I truly do appologize upsetting you in any way. It is not my intention to badger you.

    It was my intent to make sure that everyone tried to keep in mind that each individual person is different and that although they may have similar beliefs or stances to one group or another, that each person believes differently. I felt that all Christians were being lumped into a group similar to those who call themselves Christians yet murder abortion doctors or harass, beat-up, or even kill others because their religion, skin color, sexuality, or recently, if their country of origin was different from their own. It is not easy to be 'objective' ... It is not easy to be 'unjudgemental.' I hope you understand that.

    But, as you stated earlier, we should continue with the purpose of this thread. To continue with Lord Bane's original statement and one of the intents of this thread, I will go ahead and give my opinions as others have.

    Racism and Homophobia are not the same thing. Racism is the belief that one race is more superior to another. Homophobia is to fear homosexuals or homosexuality. Neither of which is logical or rational and neither of which is right. Just because someone looks, acts, believes, thinks, lives, or has opinions different from your own, you should not treat them any different than you would yourself.

    Pertaining to several of the questions and comments posted in this thread:

    I do believe that homosexuality is a "sin" per the Bible (I Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV translation ... there are other verses, but I wanted a simple, quick one here). However, simply because I believe it is a "sin" does not mean that I judge anyone who is homosexual. I just don't agree with it or accept it. But I will not mistreat, abuse, neglect, harm, insult intentionally or unintentionally anyone who is homosexual. And I will state my beliefs or opinions on the matter, but leave it at that. I will not and do not attempt to change anyone's mind or lifestyle, regardless of how I feel about it. To me, its the same thing with someone being a Democrat and the other person being a Republican. You don't have to see 'eye to eye' on every single topic, but you can still listen to them and respect them for their thoughts.

    I do not think there should be any form of discrimination against homosexuals. I do not believe they should be denied proper medical coverage or work bennefits, nor should they be forbidden to visit their sick "partner" or "spouse" if they are in the hospital. One of my friends who is gay has been with his partner for over 26 years as of this past June. I would hate to know that he was denied the chance to show the same love and support to his "loved one" that every person deserves in one of their greatest times of need. That is cruel and totally unnecessary.

    I am a little uncertain about gay marrages. I am of the belief that a man and a woman constitues a marrage in the eyes of God. However, in this day and age, there are less and less marrages that don't "stand the test of time" and/or there are many people who live together (man/woman) but don't ever get married. Taking those instances into account, I would have to say that although I may not like it, its better for them to have someone to share this life with than no one at all. I'm so tired of seeing or knowing so many people who are lonely in this world.

    Finally, I do not believe in laws that do no good "behind closed doors." As many have stated here, what someone does behind the doors of their 'bedrooms' or homes, is THEIR business. Not mine, nor the governments, nor anyone else's. It is entirely up to each and every individual to make h
  11. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    Racism and Homophobia are not the same thing. Racism is the belief that one race is more superior to another. Homophobia is to fear homosexuals or homosexuality.

    By strict definition, you are correct but I think that (perhaps eroneously) the term "homophobia" has colloquially come to mean a dislike for homosexuals; not simply fear of them.

    Neither of which is logical or rational and neither of which is right. Just because someone looks, acts, believes, thinks, lives, or has opinions different from your own, you should not treat them any different than you would yourself.

    I'm with ya on this, DARTHMOM. My basic rule of toleration is that people should be permitted to do whatever they want, provided that it does not harm or infringe upon the rights of another.

    In all honestly, I have no problem with people if they choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin or unnatural; I'll even tolerate people who believe that one race is superior to another - they have a right to these beliefs and I have a right to avoid such people, unless I want to debate with them.

    I do believe that homosexuality is a "sin" per the Bible (I Corinthians 6:9-10 NIV translation ... there are other verses, but I wanted a simple, quick one here).

    What's really interesting about this verse is that if you look at various translations, you will find starkly different interpretations of the orginal Greek.

    The word in question, which is Arsenokoitai, is composed of the roots "arsen" meaning "man" and "koitai" meaning "bed."

    English translators seemed to have no idea what this meant as is evident in the various versions.

    This word was often translated as "masturbators", but the last text to contain that translation (Catholic Encyclopedia) was in 1967, after which, masturbation was more commonplace and accepted. Translators then decided to switch to translation vagueness in regards to homosexuality.

    We also have catamites, which The New American Bible footnotes as:

    "The Greek word translated as 'boy prostitutes' [in 1 Cor. 6:9] designated catamites, i.e. boys or young men who were kept for purposes of prostitution, a practice not uncommon in the Greco-Roman world....The term translated 'practicing homosexuals' refers to adult males who indulged in homosexual practices with such boys."

    We have to bear in mind that there was no word for "homosexual" at this time: It's a modern concept whose taxonomy was given to us by the likes of Freud. In Paul's time, there was no concept of consentual same-sex relations in the same fashion that we have them today. They only had a concept of what would be seen as a perverse extention of heterosexuality: Usually in the form of rape.

    Regardless, there seems to be a lot of confusion as to what Paul's actual list of crimes that will keep one out of Heaven actually are. Here are some different interps:

    "unrighteous, fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with men, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers or extortioners."
    American Standard Version

    I have met a lot of people who "abuse themselves with men". Most of them are heterosexual women. But it looks like the gays are safe with this translation as long as they aren't effeminate. Most people seem to think that I'm "straight acting", so I guess I'm safe.

    "unrighteous and wrongdoers; impure and immoral, idolaters, adulterers, homosexuality, cheats (swindlers and thieves), greedy graspers, drunkards, revilers and slanderers, extortioners and robbers"
    Amplified Bible

    This is interesting. This one seems to have thrown a few words in just for fun, or for control, or for an excuse. Who knows. Either way, these two translations are supposedly taken from the same original Greek, yet have somewhat different outcomes. Curiouser and curiouser...

    "unrighteous; fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, abusers of themselves with mankind, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, extortioners"
    King James

    Those poor eff
  12. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    "By strict definition, you are correct but I think that (perhaps eroneously) the term "homophobia" has colloquially come to mean a dislike for homosexuals; not simply fear of them."

    CwrnPuppet, you are 100% correct!!! I'm sorry that I did not take that into account. I'm going to have to go back to some of the earlier posts and agree with others that if you are not 'secure' or 'confident' in yourself and in your own sexuality, then you would be 'afraid' of someone of the same sex hitting on you. I've had it happen before myself and it never bothered me. As a matter of fact, I didn't really think about it until I started reading this thread. Still, to be afraid of someone for any reason outside of them having say, a gun or an axe or foaming at the mouth and having them running directly towards you, then there's really no reason to be afraid. I'll have to say that's pretty silly and immature.

    "In all honestly, I have no problem with people if they choose to believe that homosexuality is a sin or unnatural; I'll even tolerate people who believe that one race is superior to another - they have a right to these beliefs and I have a right to avoid such people, unless I want to debate with them."

    Then you are doing what you and everyone else should ... Treating people the way that you want to be treated: with respect!!!! You will meet a lot of people who aren't going to be tolerant of one thing or another. Its depressing and its sad ... for me, its also rather irritating.

    Your different translations of the Biblical verse (or any other verse for that matter): EXCELLENTLY DONE!!! Also, TreeCave is also correct on her information on several of the topics here. I love learning new information and it helps when there are so many people who share it! You are correct in that there is no clearlly defined term for homosexuality, but instead, that it is simply implied. The Bible, like with many books, can be taken one way or another. Some will have a 'literal' translation while others will take it more litely. I think that is why there are soooo many different sects to Christianity today. I just love it - you were great! :D

    Remember to be 'objective' ... No one, and I mean, NO ONE knows for certain if someone is going to Hell or even Heaven for that matter. The only one that knows as far as I can tell is God. He's the only one who truly knows everyone's heart, mind, and soul. If people say something like "That's wrong ... You're going to go to Hell for that." Then they are making a "judgement" on that person(s) soul. And that is totally wrong! BTW: Whatever happened to "judge not least ye be judged yourself" or "remove the plank out of your eye before you remove the speck out of your neighbor's" ? ?[face_plain]

    I'll admit that sometimes, that is hard to do. But if anyone tries and really wants to, then it is possible. Or at least I believe that it is. I have to consistantly remind myself to double check what I'm thinking or saying or feeling. I make plenty 'o mistakes I assure you ... it's hard to (as my friends & family would say) "be good." [face_mischief]

    "I disagree here. I intentionally insult homosexuals quite often. If anyone annoys me or gets under my skin, they might have an insult coming their way, regardless of their sexual orientation."

    Well now that's not very nice! :p But I know what you mean. It's so hard to find that "fine line" between voicing your beliefs and really getting after them with a naughty vengence. I also know about that myself, so that's why I'm saying that to you now .... Oh honey, if I could only tell you the stories! I guess just try to make sure that you don't do or say things that will make you similar to those who are hateful, discriminatory, or just plain mean. I don't think you would vindictively or cruelly ... just enough to give 'em a good "I can defend myself thank you very much ... watch out" kindof thing.

    "What's interesting is that my boyfriend's employer gives me medical benefits a
  13. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    DarthMom, you may not see this in yourself, but you are smug and sarcastic, despite empty claims to the contrary. And you keep deliberately twisting my words, which is not a form of argument I respect. But I will ask one question: your ministers said exactly what I said, just without detail. So what is it exactly that I have said that bothers you? That modern Christianity has lost much respect for the acceptance and love that Jesus taught?

    Sorry, but I stand by that. I'm not saying all individual Christians ignore Christ - I'm saying the churches themselves have by and large moved away from Christ and into things like politics, and twisting their religion to fit the mores of the culture they find themselves in. Look at the Catholic church tolerating child molestation until the whole world pressures them (and their response has been "mutter mutter FINE, if it'll shut you up". I assume - and certainly hope - most Catholics are appalled by their church leadership. Another example of the church screwing up, IMO, is the "Christian Coalition" buying a political party here in the US and trying to shove a pro-Christian, anti-gay, anti-non-Christian, and to some extent anti-female agenda down everyone's throat. The Southern Baptist church is a big part of this, unfortunately. I don't assume all Southern Baptists agree with all this, but I think it's Pharisee behavior, and doubt Jesus would have approved. Unfortunately, the Southern Baptist membership by and large is not seeing this yet. Most of them deny it and accuse me of lying. Jimmy Carter left the Southern Baptist church recently because he felt their stances on such things as women were not Biblically or humanely correct. So maybe I'm not entirely full of it. ;)

    Anyway, this topic has derailed, and there are only about three people posting. I will check back in a couple of days and see if anyone else has joined in again.
  14. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    "you are smug and sarcastic, despite empty claims to the contrary. "

    I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way.

    "you keep deliberately twisting my words"

    That was not and is not my intention ... as I stated before, I just want "clarification" of what you were saying.

    "...which is not a form of argument I respect."

    Neither do I.

    "I'm saying the churches themselves have by and large moved away from Christ and into things like politics, and twisting their religion to fit the mores of the culture they find themselves in."

    Not ALL churches are like that. Please keep in mind that each church is different due to its members. :)

    "Look at the Catholic church tolerating child molestation until the whole world pressures them"

    You are 100% correct about the Catholic Church and its heirarchy tolerating and ignoring the actions of their clergy. It doesn't just happen in that church establishment either, but in many others as well. Their tolerance and ignorance of child molestation and those who perpatrate it is a black mark or scar upon Christianity. However, their track record has been one of hatred, intolerance, and violence in the name of God for centuries. I don't have much to say that is pleasant towards the Catholic Church myself.

    "Another example of the church screwing up, IMO, is the "Christian Coalition" buying a political party here in the US and trying to shove a pro-Christian, anti-gay, anti-non-Christian, and to some extent anti-female agenda down everyone's throat."

    Again, you are absolutely 100% correct!!! That is why membership in their organization has been deminishing over the past several years. I, personally, do not agree with most or all of their stances on a variety of subjects, including all of those that you mentioned.

    "The Southern Baptist church is a big part of this, unfortunately."

    You are correct in that there are many churches who subscribe to, agree with, or have membership in the Southern Baptist Convention ... But not all.

    "I don't assume all Southern Baptists agree with all this, but I think it's Pharisee behavior, and doubt Jesus would have approved."

    Not all Christians who attend Baptists churches agree with the Southern Baptist Convention ... And you are correct again in that Jesus would not approve of the methods and actions being taken in His name.

    "Unfortunately, the Southern Baptist membership by and large is not seeing this yet."

    Actually, many are ... and have been for years. There a lot of "independent" Baptist churches who have not and are not affliliated with the Southern Baptist Convention. There was an incredably large church in Waco, Texas that split from the Southern Baptist Convention within the last two or three years due to that organizations doctorine. When I spoke with my pastor, he told me that recently, there was a church in Austin, TX who also split or was kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention because they had one or more gay staff members and/or members (attendies). It's "time" is coming, I assure you. ;)

    "Most of them deny it and accuse me of lying."

    If they are doing that, then they shouldn't ... and they haven't been doing their homework or paying attention to details.

    "So maybe I'm not entirely full of it."

    You are NOT "full of it." You are obiviously someone who is extreemly passionate about what she believes in. You're only wrong if you don't have your facts straight (which you don't ... you know what you're talking about/have all of your ducks in a row) and/or if you doubt yourself. But you do need to remember that not ALL churches and not ALL Christians are intolerant, hateful, or practice prejudice ... Didn't you state that in one of your earlier posts? I thought you did.

    "I will check back in a couple of days and see if anyone else has joined in again."

    You will be missed by those you have been conversing with.

    I've appologized
  15. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    But you do need to remember that not ALL churches and not ALL Christians are intolerant, hateful, or practice prejudice ... Didn't you state that in one of your earlier posts? I thought you did.

    I have never believed this, so if something I said gave you that impression, there was a miscommunication. I DID say that's the impression a lot of outsiders - such as some gays - have of Christians, due largely to people like Falwell being in the limelight instead of people with your beliefs, or even Jimmy Carter (whose break with the church got little media attention). Some of that is the media's fault (although I always have to point out - if we didn't watch it, they wouldn't show it). Maybe there ARE more Christians trying to come forward and say, "I love everybody I disagree with" and Fox News is only interested in pitting Jerry the Hutt against, say, a rabid atheist ACLU lawyer. It's all so Jerry Springer, isn't it? *sigh*

    Not ALL churches are like that. Please keep in mind that each church is different due to its members.

    Maybe this is part of our misunderstanding. "The chuch" as I'm using it means the leadership of an entire denomination - the American Baptist Association, the Southern Baptist Convention, whatever the Methodist association is called, and so on. Now, American Baptists are somewhat autonomous, and Southern Baptists used to be. In the 70's, new leadership (the guys who brought us the Christian Coalition) took the Southern Baptist in a new direction - that church has regular conferences to determine their stances and positions on issues (including political ones) and member churches are supposed to abide by their policies. I seriously doubt any church sticks to it exactly, and once agian, I do NOT credit or blame members like you for what the demonimation's leadership is doing.

    My grandmother recently - well, for all intents and purposes - sold the American Baptist church she attended to the Southern Baptist Association. (I selling a church sounds impossible, but there was a crooked minister, stolen church funds, and no elders still there to make decisions, so that's the simplest thing to call what happened!). Anyway, the change in the church was palpable overnight - now they're having hellfire and brimstone sermons on the lack of prayer in schools and abortion instead of teaching members Biblical stuff.

    That is why membership in their organization has been deminishing over the past several years. I, personally, do not agree with most or all of their stances on a variety of subjects, including all of those that you mentioned.

    This is very heartening to hear. I have talked to one or two other Southern Baptists who generally wish for the same political things the Christian Coalition is seeking, but are very disturbed by the Coalition's political tactics to achieve a moral improvement. I hope this trend continues, not just because I disagree with the Coalition's political goals, but because I think mixing churches and politics ultimately hurts churches more than govt.

    You are correct in that there are many churches who subscribe to, agree with, or have membership in the Southern Baptist Convention ... But not all.

    Yes, and there are other churches in the Christian Coalition and groups like it. I'm just more familiar with Southern Baptists.

    Not all Christians who attend Baptists churches agree with the Southern Baptist Convention ... And you are correct again in that Jesus would not approve of the methods and actions being taken in His name.

    I do realize the difference betwen members and denomination leadership. I hope that's clearer now from my explanation above.
  16. Gutter_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2001
    star 3
    CwrnPuppet, LOL! [face_laugh] That bible translation list was very informitive.
  17. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    Well, I have not read every page here.

    But I will say this, I think homosexuality can be both something genetic and a choice.

    Why?

    Because I love women. I love them alot. But one day, I was thinking, and well, I remember some of my gay friends talking to me about their "moments" and etc. I thought to myself, that well, whatever they are doing, they must enjoy it.

    And then I thought to myself that I would like to try it sometime.

    But I go out with women. I love women too damn much. But I won't lie and say that I cannot find a man attractive. I do. And I have done things.

    But because I wanted to. Out of my own choice. Not because there is something genetic about me.

    I was curious. People have a tendency to be curious. And I was. Wanted to know what it felt like. Because I was like, "Well, it seems they're having fun, can't hurt to try".

    Of course, I ended up sticking to women. I just love women more.

    Me and my girlfriends have enjoyed sex, oral sex and anal sex.

    I have a good friend of mine who chose to be gay. He was attracted to women. He got curious. Wondered what it would feel like. He did. He decided to stay for the other team. Not because he didn't feel attraction towards women. He told me he thought men were better sexualy and knew more about what they were doing. And he has never gone back to women. Not because of loss of attraction. Just personal taste.

    Why would someone want to be discrimnated against? Some take the risk.

    Why do many people convert and become Jewish?

    One of the first things the Rabbi asks you is why would you want to convert to something in which you will be discriminated on by many. In which many will hate you?

    Some people just take the choice no matter what.

    My taste lies in women. My choice.

    And on the subject of prejudice. Everyone can think how they want. Just don't act on it.

    If someone is uncomfortable around gays, so be it. I don't see it as wrong or bad. Just don't act out on it or act in an angry or hateful way.

    I feel uncomfortable around certain people. I don't think it's wrong. No one can force me to like everyone and nor should I have to.

    I won't mention them here as not to offend, but there are people from certain countries I cannot stand. Not everyone is like that. But they just annoy me or get on my nerves. It's not wrong. I just don't act out on it or do anything stupid. I tolerate it. I ignore it.

    But I will agree about flaunting.

    I hate it. I don't care about public displays of affection. I don't. We are human. I like to kiss my girl in public. Sometimes we make out.

    She is my girl.

    But I will say this. I cannot stand Gay and Lesbian parades. I can't. Mass sexuality should not be advertised. Gay parades annoy me and they are the world's stupidest thing.

    And if there was such a thing as a Heterosexual parade, I would be doing the same thing and saying how idiotic it is.

    I see a dude wear a shirt that says: "I am Gay", I think it is moronic.

    Why? Because I think to myself, "Good for you. Here's a f***ing cookie. Now get me a cup of coffee."

    I don't care.

    If a straight guy wants to wear a shirt that says: "bikini inspector", fine. If a gay guy wants to wear a shirt that says, "speedo inspector", fine. That's fine because they are silly things.

    But if I see a guy with a shirt that says " I am straight" or "I am gay"... Shut the f*** up. Don't have to do a bold advertisement. Get a damn bumber sticker that says "Honk if you a big d***".

    That way you can match me when we drive side by side.

    Me in my "Honk if you have big hooters" bumber sticker and you in your "Honk if you have a big d***" bumber sticker.

    And I'll whip on my "bikini inspector" t shirt as well. Yes. I do own one. And you can whip on your "speedo inspector" t shirt and we can enoy a bottle of tequilla.

    Just don't wear a shirt boldy saying you are gay or straight in those exact words. That's just tacky.


    And pull up your pants.



  18. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    But I will say this, I think homosexuality can be both something genetic and a choice.

    Most geneticists, psychologists and anthropolgists have similar views. It seems that most people contain the genetic possibility of homosexuality, but the proteins which switch these genes on or off are influenced by one's environment.

    Because I love women. I love them alot. But one day, I was thinking, and well, I remember some of my gay friends talking to me about their "moments" and etc. I thought to myself, that well, whatever they are doing, they must enjoy it.

    And then I thought to myself that I would like to try it sometime.But I go out with women. I love women too damn much.


    See, I wouldn't really label this as a "choice", per se. Yes, you did "choose" women, but this choice was based on the fact that while you can admit that you may find some men attractive, you feel a predominate attraction to women. Women turn you on more than men, yes? That would say to me that biologically, you are mostly heterosexual. Everyone varies on the Kinsey scale and therefore, people can have different levels of attraction to one or both sexes - you're open to all possibilities, but women are the ones who really "do it for you".

    Does that make sense?

    But I won't lie and say that I cannot find a man attractive. I do. And I have done things.

    But because I wanted to. Out of my own choice. Not because there is something genetic about me.


    Eh... I don't know. This is a grey area - are we to assume that every "straight" guy has at least a bit of curiosity, but because of society, won't admit it? Or are we to assume that you simply have a slightly stronger tendency than most to be open?

    Perhaps you had different experiences and input in your enviroment that made you more curious than most, or perhaps you had a slight genetic predisposition to be experimental: Either way, our choices are based on how we feel, correct? Wouldn't that indicate that these choices are still grounded in something internal?

    I have a good friend of mine who chose to be gay. He was attracted to women. He got curious. Wondered what it would feel like. He did. He decided to stay for the other team. Not because he didn't feel attraction towards women. He told me he thought men were better sexualy and knew more about what they were doing. And he has never gone back to women. Not because of loss of attraction. Just personal taste.

    I think that it is important to consider that people who are bisexual don't have to "pick sides" at any point in time. As you said, his attraction for women didn't go away, so I would say that he didn't "choose to be gay", he decided to date only guys - there's a difference.

    Personally, I have found it easier to date guys because they tend not to do some of the emotionally weird things that women do. (sorry ladies - I'm not making a blanket statement so much as speaking from my personal, albeit limited experience: The women that I have dated have all been insane, I tell you!)

    That said, I couldn't be with guys if I wasn't genuinely attracted to them. I choose my partner, I choose the way in which I live my life, but the attraction for (both) sexes seems to be innate.

    Why would someone want to be discrimnated against? Some take the risk.

    Sure - and that seems to indicate that the risk must be worth it for them. I doubt that it would be if they were simply trying to be counter-culture. I don't believe that someone can be straight and then one day say, "I think I want to be gay now". It's not going to happen. You can't force yourself to be attracted to someone, or to a different gender.

    But I will say this. I cannot stand Gay and Lesbian parades. I can't. Mass sexuality should not be advertised. Gay parades annoy me and they are the world's stupidest thing.

    I agree 100%. Never has the gay community seen a greater opportunity to embarrass itself than the great, gaudy, tasteless "Gay Pride Parade". To me, the best way to celebrate your sexuality
  19. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    TreeCave
    "now they're having hellfire and brimstone sermons on the lack of prayer in schools and abortion instead of teaching members Biblical stuff."

    That is the biggest problem with many Christian churches today. There is a growing number of non-demoninational churches who are trying to steer clear of any of that, but unfortunately, those who are teaching the "fire and brimstone" are speaking louder and more often than those whose voices proclaim the messages of "love, peace, and tolerance." If that sickens you like it does me, then we're on the right track for sure.

    "I think mixing churches and politics ultimately hurts churches more than govt."

    I totally agree with you. Religion and politics should be kept seperated. Not everyone believes or worships the same way. What happened to the seperation of church and state? If I want some law or whatever passed that goes along with my religious beliefs, then I will vote for it myself ... There shouldn't be a "lobby" group that pushes for it. Each individual person should have equal say ... I don't think that happens with lobby groups. Just look at the NRA ... The majority of people in this country DO want stricter hand-gun laws, and yet ... where are they? ?[face_plain]

    "people like Falwell being in the limelight..."

    I hate to say this, and I'm sure I'm not suppossed to, but ... I can't stand Jerry Falwell. I think that he means well, but he thinks that he speaks for ALL Christians and not ALL Christians agree with him ..... or can stand him. Mom and I just roll our eyes whenever we hear his latest statement. It's really pathetic if you ask me. I'm right there with you on him ...

    "I hope that's clearer now from my explanation above."

    It is .... and "Thank You" for staying here and continuing to post. And don't leave or go away ... others still want to hear what you have to say, as do I. ;)

    son_of_the_tear
    Why would someone want to be discrimnated against? Some take the risk."

    They shouldn't have to take a 'risk.' It shouldn't be a risk to decide what you want to do with your life.

    "Why do many people convert and become Jewish?"

    That is an excellent example!!!

    "But I will agree about flaunting."

    I don't mind seeing people holding hands or hugging or a kiss or two or three, but I don't want to see anyone making out in public, regardless of their sexual orientation.

    "Mass sexuality should not be advertised."

    I do agree with you on that one ... but to me, I put that in the category with "public displays of affection."

    "Gay parades annoy me and they are the world's stupidest thing."

    So is the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade .... It's stupid too, but it goes on (unfortunately) and I think I'm probably the only one who thinks that.

    "Don't have to do a bold advertisement."

    I agree ... but then again, I do have a friend who's a drag queen and he looks really good in a dress. As a matter of fact, he looks better in a dress than I do. Do drag queens count?

    CwrnPuppet
    "The women that I have dated have all been insane, I tell you!"

    [face_laugh]

    "To me, the best way to celebrate your sexuality is to participate in it, not feel bad about it and to live your life in the way that you see fit, ignoring those who try to condemn you."

    Very well said!!!!! I agree with you!!!!

    "The problem arises when people are rejected by friends and family because of their sexuality: The gay community becomes their new family and, sadly, their sexuality becomes almost synonymous with their identity. This happens far too often."

    The same thing happens to a lot of people. Look how hard I've tried to show how some Christians are different from others .... I agree that whatever you do or believe in is intermixed with whatever group you fall closest to.

    "My mom recently sent me a shirt that said "Silly fag***, di*** are for chicks!"

    I think your mom and I need to have a talk,
  20. Gutter_Monkey Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 15, 2001
    star 3
    Lurking has never been so fun as it is on this thread. :)

    If you see anymore funny bumper stickers be sure to mention them.
  21. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I hate to say this, and I'm sure I'm not suppossed to, but ... I can't stand Jerry Falwell. I think that he means well, but he thinks that he speaks for ALL Christians and not ALL Christians agree with him ..... or can stand him.

    Exactly. Him and others who express similar views make Christians look like a group who can't tolerate anyone different from them - like, you know, Al Queda! (Get a clue, Jer!) I have known more than a few Christians who claim their god wants them to make anti-gay legislation, not hire gays, etc.... but despite their numbers, I think they are still a small minority.

    But isn't that always the problem with bigotry? Small vocal minorities get all the attention and take hurtful actions, and an unfortunate number of people who require someone else to tell them what to think follow blindly along. I mean, you've heard how black people get pulled over by cops more often than whites due to racial profiling? Well, black cops are just as guilty of pulling them as are the white cops! This is the original meaning of "institutionalized racism" before the PC folks turned it into a meaningless buzzword - the racist behavior becomes standard practice and after a while, people forget the racism behind it.
  22. CwrnPuppet Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 4
    My mom has recently hit her midlife crisis and has thus become Super Supportive Liberal Mom. She sends my boyfriend birthday presents. Everyone that I have ever dated, she has asked them how I was in bed. My mother is a strange cookie. She's a biochemist. What do you expect? These are people who have blown-up copies of "The Far Side" comics on their lab walls.
  23. son_of_the_tear Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    hehehe

    Well, I'm not good at making witty bumber stickers!

    But I agree on a whole deal of what you say.

    But I still stand that it can be both something genetic and something of choice.

    As a spiritual being, I believe there are more to feelings than just chemical reactions. It's what makes us human.

    And yes, it should not be a risk to take. But that is the world we live in.

    I am half Jewish. But I converted fully so I can be recognized (something silly to me, but I won't get into that. that's another story).

    The Rabbi told me about the risks, yadda, yadda, yadda. Eh, I still went ahead. I'm not stupid.

    It shouldn't be. But that is the nature of this world.
  24. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Actually, there is something wrong with comparing a conversion to Judaism with an alleged conversion to homosexuality. Judaism contains specific beliefs which one could feel will save his soul - therefore a little ridicule in the here and now is worth everlasting bliss later on.

    Homosexuality doesn't offer anything similar. I mean, if it doesn't matter to you whether you're with women or men, there's no compelling reason to choose your own gender instead of the opposite. It's not like you're getting cosmic Brownie Points, or saving your soul.

    The only reason to embrace whatever orientation you have is that it is being true to yourself.

    Perhaps if there is an ideal spiritual position on orientation, it would be that we'd be capable of falling in love with anyone, no matter gender, age, ethnicity, or anything else. By limiting ourselves to people of one gender in a specific age range and racial profile (as the vast majority of us do), we may be missing out on serious spiritual growth.

    Hey, it's a valid argument. [shrug]
  25. DARTHMOM10 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 4
    "But isn't that always the problem with bigotry? Small vocal minorities get all the attention and take hurtful actions, and an unfortunate number of people who require someone else to tell them what to think follow blindly along."

    That is SOOOO TRUE!!! What I still don't understand is why people don't stand up to them (those who have differing opinions). ?[face_plain] I am constantly getting myself into arguments with people who call themselves Christians, but don't do or think like Christ Jesus did. They speak of some very hateful and often unnecessary and disrespectful things. And they have a "one-sided" viewpoint of factual and/or historical information. It's really disturbing.

    CwrnPuppet I hope what you said is true and that your mom is trying to love and accept you as her son. I also hope that you work with her in creating a lasting relationship together that will be mutually understanding, patient, and compassionate towards each other, regardless of whether or not you both agree or see "eye to eye" all the time. :)

    But, I still don't think that that t-shirt she sent to you was very nice, kind, or respectful. I still don't think that shirt is very funny at all. :(

    "By limiting ourselves to people of one gender in a specific age range and racial profile (as the vast majority of us do), we may be missing out on serious spiritual growth."

    That can also be true to only listening to the opinions or beliefs of those who think or feel the same way about things that you do. If you only associate with people like that, you're only living in 'half' of a world. I think we all grow by experiencing new things, meeting new people, and hearing/learning new ideas ... regardless of whether or not we believe in them.

    Very well said!!!! :)
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