Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by SithStarSlayer, Feb 27, 2013.
Tyranus? Maybe, like Maul, his "Darth name" is also his real name.
That's funny! To refresh my memory -- Maul had a different birth name right? Did he never know his original name, or did he forget it during the years of madness after being cut in half on Naboo?
Not as far as we know - all sources seem to suggest his birth name was Maul- to fit the Nightbrother theme of scary names - "Feral" "Savage" and so on.
I figure my comments fit in this thread.
I really dislike the PT as movies.
The PT as movies was never as important to me as the PT as explaining how Anakin fell to the Dark Side, Palpatine came to power, etc. And the structural story arch Lucas created to provide these explanations was, I feel, excellent.
Despite my aforementioned dislike, I wasn't "traumatized" by the PT. This era of SW history was never that important to me. I mostly just wanted to know what happened to Han, Luke, and Leia and better understand the Force as a cohesive philosophy. For that readon, I'm much more invested in the ST. But that is self-evidently my personal preference.
Here are some huge difficulties Lucas faced in creating the PT:
1. We know how it ends.
2. The vast majority of the characters are brand new.
3. It has to explain how a multi-thousand-year-old Republic and Jedi Order collapsed/was wiped out.
4. The use of vastly updated technology is a major boon but it helps make the SW universe look very different.
5. Giving a convincing explanation of how and why a hero becomes an major villain is very difficult.
6. Insane expectations. (Although Lucasfilm helped build those up in its marketing. Still...)
In retrospect, I feel the execution could have been much better, and perhaps could have garnered less criticism, but I can't imagine a scenerio where tons of fans of the OT wouldn't have been disappointed.
Actually, only two things REALLY niggle me about the PT, and I'm not sure anyone at all is worthy of blame for them;
1. We don't get much clarity on exactly why an Order that's been successful for "a thousand generations" is so fundamentally flawed, as everyone seems to believe now, and which seems to be a major plot point of the ST. The "romance is off limits" and "train'em from birth" elements of the Order make a LOT of sense to me for an organization of super-powered beings. (Makes me think of Captain America: Civil War.) Of course, I don't imagine Lucas really intended to make this a message of the PT, so I can't consider it an actual flaw.
2. I always got the impression that Anakin's age at the time he was recruited was a crucial reason for his fall, in that he had already developed intense attachments that other Jedi just didn't experiance as children. But I seem to be a minority in this view...
As for the midochlorian thing, I don't like it because it drains the Force of its mysticism *for me.* But tbh I haven't read any real justifications/explanations for their inclusion in the PT, so if someone could link me to a great explanatory article I'd be grateful
I hope this was ok to post here D: I REALLY wish I loved the PT, but I'm grateful that I at least really like what I felt was their most important element. The more I can come to appreciate other elements of the PT, the happier I'll be as a SW fangirl
First off - let me just say that I frigging love how you emphasize that your opinion's an opinion and not a fact. Yet more evidence that this board really is the best SW community online
Anyways, I'll reply to these out of order
2. Well, it was. Primarily, he was particularly attached to his mother, which he was never able to really get past, and he was never able to get over her death, which was a huuuuge step towards his fall
1. There are multiple ways to interpret that, I think. One is that they didn't quite start out that way and may have eventually fallen to that level over time. The Order became more flawed over time without even realizing it, which is kind of how I like to think about it. Another interpretation, supported by EU, is that they only (relatively) recently started to adopt such policies that ultimately led to them becoming.... what's the word? I meant to get to sleep like 3 hours ago lol. Not quite corrupt, but eh. The video game Knights of the Old Republic has a character who caused the Jedi Order quite a bit of problems because of his love life, and the game overall implies he was the reason the Jedi implemented the rule about no attachments and specifically, no romance
On Midis - I can't link a specific article right now, but I can answer with my own words. I disagree and say that they added to the mystical nature of the Force. Frequently seen misconception is that they are (excuse the rhyme) the source of the Force, or they generate it in some way. They're just the catalyst through which living beings are able to access the Force. It's still the same mystical energy field that flows through the very universe itself and in all living beings. The only change is now we're aware of the means through which living beings are able to feel it and why the Force is hereditary and why not everyone feels it as strongly
Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed answer! I admit that I never sought out any pre-OT EU material, which I now regret because, based on what you describe, I think it would have increased my understanding of and appreciation of the PT. *Ideally,* I feel like movies should be fully self-contained and self-explanatory, but I've realized over the years that if one wants a really complex story told in movie form, well...sacrifices must inevitably be made (e.g., the galactic politics in the ST, sadly). I used to read a lot of post-OT EU, and only now am I realizing how much my understanding of the SW galaxy has been influenced by it (since it's now mostly non-canon!)
I have also come to hold the theory that whatever was wrong with the Jedi Order in the PT was a relatively recent phenomenon. Someone pointed out somewhere else on the forum something Qui-gon Gin said about Jedi not getting involved in other peoples' wars, and that the growing involvement of Jedi in politics may have been a major contributing factor. Makes me want to read a PhD thesis analyzing "where the Jedi Order went wrong"! Wouldn't that be fascinating?
Re Midis - I suppose I can analogize myself to, for example, a Christian who prefers to avoid "The Scientific Case for Jesus"-type articles because, while obviously written by and for the faithful, such information/theories detract from my personal enjoyment/satisafction/understanding of my faith. I would be VERY surprised if a ton of SW weren't very appreciative of Lucas's mention of Midis in the PT.
Thank you for your kind words I think if I laid out in full my personal view of SW and "how it works" I'd be shown to have strong views FAR less popular than those SW fans who love the PT ^___^;; (except, um...mine are, I believe, most likely fundamentally unreasonable while PT lovers' are not!)
Qui-Gon Jinn never said that. What he said was that he could only protect Amidala, not fight a war for her. He never said anything about Jedi not getting involved in wars.
Perhaps the poster believed that that was what Qui-Gon was implying. I haven't watched the movies in a while, and I don't remember, personally.
I've never seen any source saying that he definitively would have tied if TCW had completed the full 8 seasons?
I guess this fits here but, what if George Lucas made the prequel trilogy in 88-94? I would cast Cory Haim as kid Anakin, Tom Cruise as adult Anakin, Jonathan Frakes as Obi-Wan, Robert Redford as Qui-Gon and Winona Ryder as Padme. Who would you cast? Also, if you would rather they be made at a different time(if you feel that way at all) what years and actors would you choose? This is just for fun.
Anakin's robe gets caught on his saber in the droid factory sequence in AOTC. Just thought I'd point that out.
At 1:42. You even see Hayden trying to get it off for a sec
In TPM, Obi says. "But master Yoda said i should be mindful of the future "
Did he say Yoda or something else??
He said Yoda.
Watching an Ep II edit, had a quibble:
I've heard people insist that how many blades doesn't matter, it's the skill and fighting style etc.....so why does Obi-Wan toss Anakin his saber while fighting Dooku in Ep II? If they truly think Anakin is more formidable with 2 blades why not be outfitted with 2 blades like Ahsoka and Aayla?
To be fair, Anakin was still a padawan and he was going up against one of the more skilled duelists that the Jedi ever had, even though Dooku had left the order. Dooku made quick work of Obi-Wan, who had managed (albeit due to overconfidence on his opponent's part) to bring down Maul.
What you're saying makes sense- it just makes me wonder why
a) if Jedi agree that two blades makes one more formidable why don't more of them roll with 2 blades Ahsoka-style?
b) even if the above just applies to Anakin- why is Anakin not running around with 2 blades more in either of his lives?
It reminds me of the contradiction of Jedi always saying the darkside is not stronger and then the stories blatantly depict the darkside is stronger- I'm like: which is it?
Ok, possibly dumb question here, but I've been wondering:
I've picked up here and there talk of how "the PT did things differently" than the OT, which could be why some fans didn't like it.
When I think of how the PT was different - ignoring the superficial stuff - I think of the following:
- Differently-structured character arch from OT - Considering how the PT had to end, I have a hard time believing the OT hero's journey structure would have worked
- Different structural character dynamic - OT was (to be simplistic) a protagonist, 2 "sidekicks," a "front and center" villain (Vader) and a "behind the curtain" villain (Emperor). Pretty straight-forward. PT struck me as much more complex in this department.
- Different emphasis on battles/fights - I *think.* I got the impression the PT had a lot more, but TBH I haven't done a side-by-side comparison, so this might not actually be the case?
- Different tone - Of course - Anakin turn evil! There feels like a sort of pall over everything in the PT, if that makes sense, vs the "lighter" OT, even in TPM. I'm not sure if every component of the overall tone was strictly necessary, although I can't recall anything that stood out to me as *unnecessary,* so this really isn't a criticism on my part, although I could imagine there being fans who weren't fans of the tone even if they agreed it was fitting
- Politics! - Nearly none in the OT, tons in the PT. I found the presentation of the politics overly ponderous in the PT. HOWEVER! I do applaud Lucas for having the guts to shove in as much politics as he felt necessary to explain the situation. I'm not even sure it was possible to include the needed degree of politics without alienating some viewers. As much as I loved TFA, I was very disappointed and confused that nearly every vital piece of information re: the pesent state of galactic politics was relegated to the novels instead of being explained in the movie
- Portrayal of the Jedi - OT: Quite a bit of mysticism and mystery; Jedi seemed very special. PT: We see lots if Jedi/lightsabers; Oh! Being a Jedi isn't cool and fun? Rats...(I've noted elsewhere how I think, story-wise, portraying Jedi as very all-work-no-play was the right move)
Uhh can't think of anything else "big" off the top of my head.
What if Obi Wan had believed Dooku?
I don't think it would've made much difference. Obi-Wan would still not have joined Dooku and several Council members would likely have been skeptical (though they would still have decided to keep a closer eye on the Senate).
What if Anakin had lead the campaign against Grievous on Utapau?
Then he wouldn't be fulfilling the secret mission that was requested of him.
What if Maul captured Anakin on Tatooine?
He would either use the boy as a hostage or, if he sensed Anakin's Force potential, he would've trained him as a secret apprentice.
Maul would probably use him for a bounty .
What happened to R6-G9 after he flew back in Obi-Wan's ship? I checked Wookieepedia and even in Legends it seems we never found out. I guess he was probably destroyed or had his memory wiped but I like the idea of him escaping the Empire somehow and wandering the Galaxy.