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Random Symbols (Ivory Tower: Episode 2)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by JediGaladriel, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 3, 1999
    Because the old Random Symbols thread was starting to have some technical difficulties, and because it was getting long, I'm starting a new thread to pick up the discussion.

    If you're just joining us, "Random symbols" is what it sounds like -- we bring up all kinds of images and themes from the movies, and look at them for potential meaning. The opening of the first thread:

    I'm not suggesting that any of these symbolisms were intended (though they might have been). Just sort of wondering what can be made of them.

    In other words, it's cool if GL thought intentionally, gosh, I think the image of a deep chasm can be used to express times of moral stress, but it's perfectly fine if Uncle George gave us a really puzzled frown at the idea as well.

    Some of the recent topics (and feel free to add new ones:

    The meaning of the ubiquitous technological failures: No, not the anti-tech stuff, though that creeps in, but at what points do the machines malfunction in each movie, and how do those malfunctions effect the plot? A point brought up in relation was the restraining bolts on the droid, and how they parallel the more deadly "restraining bolt" on the Tatooine slaves in TPM.

    The color of Luke's clothes. This was only mentioned briefly, in regard to the changing of his personality, but I think that clothing color could have a lot done with it. The mention of Amidala's red blanket (in fact, the character's persistant association with the color red) got me to thinking about agression and angeer and so on in regards to color symbolism.

    Jar Jar's role in the mythic sense; Jedi Eowyn expounded on his parallel to the CS Lewis character Puddleglum, and began to examine how the archetype is used to bring people back to the moral line. Another parallel she's brought up is to chess, via Tarpals as a knight from Through the Looking Glass.

    And Hol just posted:


    Existence or lack thereof. We see a complete lack of starlines in E1. But one only sees starlines from inside the ship entering hyperspace, never from outside -- perhaps in this first trilogy the plot is being shown from the outside, as in the OT it was shown from the inside?

    Also, this is a new one (I think), that I thought of while discussing images in regards to the twilight of the Jedi order, when someone (sorry, can't remember who) pointed out on TrueJedi's thread about what Jedi behaviors might or might not have contributed to their fall:

    Sunsets. In TPM, the Jedi council is almost always shown at sunset, a fairly obvious "Twilight of the Gods" image. But in ANH, Luke's look at the sunset is clearly evocative of the future. Why do the different sunsets feel so different in context? Anyone want it?

    [This message has been edited by JediGaladriel (edited 01-26-2000).]
  2. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 3, 1999
    Now, to pick up on a post from Jedi Master Mara Jade (I'm using heavier quoting than usual, because we're switching threads):

    It seems to me that machine malfunctions have a way of bringing people together. They also often break various barriers. This is illustrated many times...

    This is an excellent point, I think. A lot of devices can be used to bring characters together -- weather, accidents, illnesses, battles -- but SW seems to go for the technological malfunction a lot in this capacity.

    The Death Star garbage chute:[irrelevant statement] I absolutely hate this scene. I don't know why, but it's really annoying; I always leave beause it's frustrating. [/irrelevant statement]

    Oh, good. I thought I was the only one...

    Artoo in the Death Star trench: After Artoo malfunctions in the DS, Luke becomes closer to two people. 1)Obi Wan helps him through the trench and shows him how the Force can beat machinery, thus breaking the barrier betwen life and death by communicating despite it and 2)Darth/Anakin notices Luke for the first time ("The Force is strong in this one...")

    Nice... I like this point a lot. I hadn't really thought before of how close in proximity those two events were.

    After both Han and Luke's tauntauns die, Han rescues Luke. Thus, the barrier between Han and unselfish action is broken, while simultaneously Han and Luke grow closer (well, Luke's kind of unconsious at the time, but Han grows closer to Luke).

    And Luke grows a whole lot closer to Han's tauntaun!

    Actually, there are a lot of intersting things in this scene, and later on, we'll talk about avatars of Anakin, but there's one piece of machinery in this scene that works just fine: Anakin's lightsaber. Han uses it -- the only time we see a non-Jedi do so -- for that moment filling the role of Luke's father by using his weapon to save Luke's life. (And, btb, you don't really need to go around in circles to explain the tauntauns as machinery -- Han was out on a tauntaun because the speeders couldn't handle the storm.)

    Also, after his tautaun's demise, Luke breaks an important barrier by utilizing telekinesis for the first time; therefore also breaking the barrier with him and the Force.


    The Falcon's lightspeed: This is probably the most obvious one: Han and Leia fall in love while repairing the drive. So the barrier of hate or at least repulsion is broken.

    Obvious, but key. What else is going on with this element, though? Throughout ESB, this machine is malfunctioning -- first, it can't get them off Hoth, then it won't go into hyperdrive, then it leads them straight into betray on Bespin. Part of it, I think, is representative of Han's trying to return to his old life, which he can't do because he's been changed. But that ship is such an important element of the series... it leads indirectly to Luke's confrontation with Vader as well.

    Vader's malfunctioning hand This a really dramatic point, the best of the trilogy IMHO. Of course, that whole swordfight is great. (The Ewoks are the only things that spoil it ) Anyway, the moment in which Luke recognises how muh he is like his father is really good, and really is a turning point. This furthers the relationship between Ani and Luke from hate to love, and breaks the barrier inside Luke from Dark to Light.

    Yes, I like that one, too. And what about the malfunctioning of Vader's breathing apparatus?

    I was wondering what parallels and differences you think we might see in the relationship of Ani and Padme as compared to the relationship of Han an Leia.

    I think one prime difference we're seeing so far is that Anakin has already decided on her and essentially spoken for her. Also, the age factor is working in the other direction -- Amidala has adopted a caring attitude toward him rather than a rejecting one. GL, alas, has not always handled relationships all that well on screen, and he may decide, "What the heck, we had Han and Leia bicker, so let's have Anakin and Amidala bicker." But I think it's set up to have more "external enemies" configuration -- m
  3. Shar Kida

    Shar Kida Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 28, 1999

    As long as you are evoking back to sunsets (alas, poor "Twilight" thread, I knew thee well), would not the double sunset of ANH signal precisely the same finality in Luke's stagnant Tatooine life as the sun setting on the Jedi Council: and with the same promise of rebirth into something new?

    O nobly-born, the time hath now come for thee to seek the Path (in reality). Thy breathing is about to cease. Thy guru hath set thee face to face before with the Clear Light; and now thou art about to experience it in its Reality in the Bardo state, wherein all things are like the void and cloudless sky, and the naked, spotless intellect is like unto a transparent vacuum without circumference or centre. At this moment, know thou thyself; and abide in that state.
    - Tibetan Book of the Dead
  4. one-fan

    one-fan Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jul 18, 1999
    The Death Star garbage chute: I absolutely hate this scene. I don't know why, but it's really annoying; I always leave because it's frustrating.

    I suspect that you dislike the scene because it's deus ex machinaand it would be much more emotionally satisfying if resolved in some other fashion.

    I have always thought that Luke staring off into the Tatooine sun(s)set is looking at the end of his childhood, he just hasn't discovered that yet.

    The high narrow place with chasms has been discussed a lot, but there's something...elusive...that we haven't got to yet.
    Oh, see you not yon narrow road
    So thick beset with thorn and briars
    That is the path of righteousness
    Though after it but few enquire
    Thomas the Rhymer

  5. B

    B Jedi Youngling

    Oct 8, 1999
    What a great thread... some of these insights are amazing!

    As far as sunsets go, I think the TPM setting sun is built to contrast the ANH one in the sense that one foreshadows tragedy and the other foreshadows victory. One is about ruin, the other about hope.

    GL has always talked about the Tatooine sunset being representative of that yearning to go out and find his destiny. The same is true for the Coruscant sunset; but from the POV of someone who has watched the OT, we know that the Jedi will eventually be killed off... hence the sun setting on the Jedi. Also, the Coruscant sunset shows Anakin is not as willing to go out and find his own destiny; he is afraid (afraid for his mother, but I think GL is just trying to make his point about fear, which he voices through Yoda). There's so many other things you could say, too, but I'll leave it at that for now.

  6. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 3, 1999
    YTAP has been kind enough to archive the old thread, so anyone who wants to go there, it's at Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000127-1-017150.htmlRandom symbols (total ivory tower stuff) (in the Star Wars archive).

    Another contrast in the sunset scenes:

    Luke is outside, looking toward the sunset. Anakin is inside, looking through the windows at the sunset. The Jedi Council has its collective back to it.
  7. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Oct 25, 1999
    Interesting point about the JC sitting with their backs to the sunset...perhaps it is a foreshadowing of things to come, of their complacency with the state of the galaxy and their unwillingness to accept the possibility of drastic change...
  8. Darth Bombad

    Darth Bombad Jedi Youngling

    Nov 1, 1999
    As for the "garbage chute" scene in ANH, I sort of look at it as a "Jonah in the belly of the whale"-type moment. Not my favorite scene in the movie by an stretch, but I don't hate it.

    A far better scene along these same lines is Luke's journey into the bowels of Cloud City.

    The hero's journey into hell (or the Abyss) is a very common theme in mythology. Odysseus did it. Aeneas did it. Even Jesus.

    Luke descends into the bowels of the city and confronts Hades (Vader). Remember when Aeneas went to the underworld to seek his father? It's equally significant that it is over the Abyss in the underworld that Luke comes face to face with his father, whom he has believed long dead. He's facing the one who gave him life, yet is threatening death. It's a really brilliant set-up when you analyze it, probably the most profound scene in the entire series.

    As for the sunsets . . .

    In ANH, Luke is facing his last day as a boy, his last day at home. His childhood?his "day"?is ending, and he bids it farewell.

    I hadn't actually caught the sunset scene in TPM. Good catch! To me, it symbolizes the twilight of the Jedi. Their era is ending. It's also significant that the One who is going to end it now stands before them for Judgment.

    And there's nothing like the wrath of a Chosen One scorned.

  9. FutureEmperor

    FutureEmperor Jedi Master star 3

    Jul 15, 1998
    Thought I'd chime in..

    EVeryone knows Palpatine's name is derived from the Palatine hill in Rome, but I think there may be more there. Rome was founded by the merging of two village settlements on TWO hills, the Palatine hill and the Quirinal.I know Qui-GOn Jinn's name may have as much to do with qi, and qi-gong, but the SPELLING(minor, i know) may have had to do with this historical fact. In a sense the Empire we come to know is founded upon two characters--Palpatine(the great Sith) and Qui-Gon(who brought Anakin into the "larger world"..consequently, Vader and the Purge)..

    I know I'm reaching, but it fits the thread, don't ya think??

    Also, I think many people are reaching too quickly for Hitler analogies because of the immense evil committed by the Empire. I think Palpatine is just as much a reverse-Augustus as Hitler.

    For those that don't know Augustus was the adopted son of Julius Caesar. JCaesar's mistake was his contemptuous treatment of the Senators and self-aggrandizement. Sure, the populace revered him, but he was assassinated because of the long-held Republican principles embedded in Rome(at the time..they would erode) In fact, to call a man a "king" was the worst insult in pre-Imperial Roman times.

    Perhaps, learning from Caesar's cautionary example, Augustus would always deny the honorary titles bestowed upon him(until the end), gave inconceivable amounts of money to the people(one of the wealthiest men in world history), and treated the Senators with more than due respect. The only title Augustus had was that of Princeps, or First Citizen. Known for cruelty before his adoption by Julius, Augustus "killed em with kindness" in his imperial days. Perhaps Palpatine's strategy, at first, will be to make himself the friend of the people. Augustus may have genuinely been a noble Emperor, but his actions certainly solidified his hold on power.

    Another observation: the pupil-master relationship is apparent in both Jedi and Sith, but many of the early Emperors were ADOPTED sons(sometimes barely known to their fathers) as a way of avoiding the inherent instability of genetic inheritance, thereby insuring the succession of capable leaders(that's the idea anyways)..does this remind anyone of the adoption of Maul by Sidious, Sidious by whomever,etc???

    Of course this could also be true for the Jedi...

  10. MissPadme

    MissPadme Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jul 9, 1998
    Perhaps it's because the Jedi Council has no future, it's part of a dying age. (I'm suddenly reminded of that sunset on Coruscant after Valorum is booted.) Anakin for better or worse is the future, just as Luke is the future.

    (As an aside, I like the garbage compactor scene! It's an homage to the kind of Saturday morning serials George grew up with, much the same way we grew up with SW.)
  11. clerk

    clerk Moderator Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 2, 1998
    For what it's worth, Lucas did comment that the color red would become very important in this trilogy (and I agree that it is supposed to sugget aggression, as with Maul, and even in the Imperial guard in RotJ). But I think you're really onto something when you note that Amidala is so enveloped by red. Lucas is steeped in the non-narrative, visual suggestions of cinematic art (as we all know). Well, I'm fairly certain that he has decided (in the same visual conceit) on more and more intensely circumscribing Amidala with the color red as the episodes roll along, with Ingmar Bergman's film Cries and Whispers contextually in mind. I'll just leave a quote from a review from the IMdB on Cries and Whispers to explain what I mean: "Cries and Whispers" is a powerful, richly textured exploration of the human soul...the film is a heartbreaking portrait of pain and regret--of things left unsaid and undone--until it is too late. Agnes's slow, agonizing death is shattering, especially as she futilely struggles to reconcile the sisters, as her languid, convulsive frame strains each breath. Unable to reunite her sisters, her tortured soul can only grieve in incoherent gasps. Similar to Leo Tolstoy's The Death of Ivan Ilych, death confers a profound revelation whose meaning escapes the survivors. "Cries and Whispers" is a beautifully devastating story of isolation, communication, love, and death...
    Bergman resisted using color as a novelty. His use of color in the film is precise and deliberate. Contrast the pale, muted landscape to the rich, deep colors inside the house. The color red, featured prominently in the film (as in Krzysztof Kieslowski's "Red") is used to create a multi-faceted visual theme. The effect is one of immersion: a soul foundering in the corporal life blood, a stifling, forced intimacy arising from absence and isolation, and a body slowly consumed by illness. "Cries and Whispers" is a remarkable film of intoxicating beauty and extraordinary depth--a sublime work of art from a true master.
  12. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Oct 31, 1999
    While reading about the significance of sunsets, I was reminded of the saying that "The sun never sets on the British Empire."

    This statement not only reflects the fact that the British Empire spanned the globe at that time, but the belief that the Empire would reign in perpetuity.

    However nothing lasts forever and time has shown that the sun does indeed set on the British Empire. Similarly the sunset in TPM on the Jedi Council seems to signify the end of the Council. Remember Obi-Wan told Luke that the Jedi Knights were the guardians of the Republic for over one thousand generations. I'm sure the Jedi and the Republic thought they would last forever too.
  13. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Oct 31, 1999
    Perhaps another symbol of impending doom can be seen in TPM when we see Coruscant for the first time.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that in the OT, every planet we see is seen from space fully lit by sunlight.

    However when we first see Coruscant, we view it as half lit and half dark. With the terminator line dividing the light and dark approximately in half. Could this symbolize Sideous/Palpatine and the Jedi as fighting for control of the Republic. Coruscant is the capital world of the Republic and it is already half plunged in darkness.

    The only other example of this that comes to mind occurs in ESB. When Han and Leia reach Bespin, it is fully seen in daylight. When Lando and Leia rescue Luke and flee, we see night setting over the planet, a reference to the Empire taking control of the planet and closing in on our heroes.

    If anyone has any other examples of this, or any contradictions, feel free to respond.
  14. Ecaz

    Ecaz Jedi Youngling

    Jan 26, 2000
    I'm not sure if this is relivant here...

    Look at how Luke is dressed as a Jedi in Episode VI. All black... He looks more like Maul then Obi-Wan or Qui-Gon! Does this have any special meaning? Does this sybolize that he has come to terms with Vader being his father and he's leaning towards the ways of the Sith?

    In some of the sketches in "The Art Of..." The vest he wears is a vary light tan. Which would have been a perfect balance, dark inner, Light outer. In the film, it's a deep, rich brown, almost black.

    At the end of Episode VI, we see Ani, Obi-Wan, and Yoda are all dressed the same, like the Jedi's in Phantom. I would hope that soon after Luke leaves Endor, he wears the proper uniform and passes the dress code to his followers.

    What do you think?
  15. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 3, 1999
    Hi, guys. Welcome.

    Ecaz, yes, I think the similarity to Vader's costuming in RotJ was even intentional (seem to recall someone posting on that when we discussed it in the old thread). And check out his entrance into Jabba's palace! For a second, you can actually mistake him for Vader.

    Will he adopt the "proper" Jedi uniform? It's possible. It looks more comfortable, at any rate. And if the ghosts are still there to advise him as he works, I can see it happening. If not, something like that might prove a very low priority.
  16. MacTusken

    MacTusken Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jul 29, 1999
    My slow browser led me to abandon your excellent first thread Galadriel . However, maybe I can keep up with this one.

    We're talking about sunsets I see. Shar, is there no way of recovering that old thread? I have a vested interest -there were some comments on that relating it to Tennessee Williams that I'd like to review...being the intellectual charlatan that I am, I can't remember them...the Clifts notes I copied all that out of got put in the rubbish

    I don't know if this subject has been raised before, but I've been thinking somewhat on Maul...

    Darth Maul's appearance
    Obviously, this is using makeup to depict internal corruption. Speak about Lars household roofs all you like -but to me, Mauls' tattoos are all about decay and rot. Now, the joking comparison of Maul to a rotten tomato has been made, but it is actually a good observation. A rotten fruit. A young apprentice -obviously with so much potential -diseased and corrupted by the dark side -pushing his exploration into the force too far. Overripe, almost. The black cross cross marks much like black tar in a smokers lungs...I'm sure you can all come up with your own observations.
    Mauls eyes, the windows to his soul, are a vivid yellow -like a particularly vile pus -in short, poison. So black is Maul's soul , transparent boils are the only gateway to them. Vader's "soul windows" are merely shielded, the shutters down. But in Maul, everything has rotted.In Vader, the shutters can be taken down, but in the Sith apprentice, there seems almost no hope of this. His soul is shut off.

    And the teeth -so often a measure of health and strength traditionally. Also essential in forming speech, and communication. well, the teeth are rotted, cancerous looking, a hideous grid of ugly colours. Thus, Maul does not just use words of evil and hate -they are formed by the side effects themselves.

    And those thorns on his head? Roses. Impressive flower. Pre-eminent among blooms. However, if you read certain fairy talse, you soon learn how bad an idea it is to fall into one. Darth Maul can be breathtaking to behold -and, before his corruption to the dark side, could well have been something to admire, with a degree of beauty, inner or othewrwise.But in TPM, Maul is, literally a withered rose, all that is left, are the thorns. Hisd bloom is shed, and he is probably past the point where he could ever recover.

    There is, of course, a Biblical connection to be made. If we accept the Anakin/Messianic element to the Son of the Suns theory, and bearing in mind what happens to anakin, what scope is there for seeing Maul's prickly head as a perverted crown of thorns? a potential dark messiah ubder the wing of a living devil (Palpatine...)Anti-Messiah, perhaps.

    OK...late hour getting to me here, one speculation too many, probably. Still, maybe something in there, somewhere?...

    [This message has been edited by MacTusken (edited 01-30-2000).]
  17. Avenging Jawa

    Avenging Jawa Jedi Youngling

    Dec 15, 1998
    first of all i would like to say that i just got an internet conection to my happy little homestead, so i will hopefully be able to join in to the foray a little more often than when i was posting at work.

    I think that the point about the approach to the planets needs to be addressed further.

    i do believe that the approach to coruscant is the first approach by the good guys to a darkened planet even partially. on this planet there is a struggle between the sith (all two of them) and the jedi council for control of the republic. similarly, as stated above, when the heroes leave cloud city and bespin there is the aforementioned setting sun, the new peice that i want to throw into the mix is in ANH the death star is on the other side of the planet, which happens to be the dark side of the planet.
    just thought that i would add this as support for the dark planet approach idea

    i do have to remark that it is nice to have restarted this discussion, the old page did become rather cumbersome

    anyway.... as always this is just a thought
  18. Herman Snerd

    Herman Snerd Jedi Master star 6

    Oct 31, 1999
    Aaaahhhh yes. I had forgotten about Yavin.

    And because of the position of the Death Star in relation to the planet Yavin, when the Rebel forces attack the Death Star, they are moving out of the light and into the dark. Attacking the evil on its own turf, so to speak.

    Thanks for the heads up, Avenging Jawa
  19. Mac the Fork

    Mac the Fork Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 9, 1998
    About the trash compactor scene - it always seemed to me to be a homage to the getaway scene in the Hobbit(although it's roots are obviously much deeper than that). Remember - out of the frying pan, and into the fire, only to be rescued by the most unlikliest of things. Makes sense to me.
  20. one-fan

    one-fan Jedi Youngling star 2

    Jul 18, 1999
    MacTusken, as I live and breathe-an intelligent post on Darth Maul. Maul is the portrait of the Dark Side, a hideous parody of humanity. Every aspect of his face that might have led to a feeling of kinship has been distorted and covered.
  21. Jedi Master Mara Jade

    Jedi Master Mara Jade Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 8, 1999
    Hi again everyone! I'm so glad you started a new thread, JediGala, though it took me awhile to find it

    So...we're talking about light now. Light is a great theatrical device; the implications of dark and light are obvious, as are those of sunrises and sunsets. (In other words, this might've actually been intentional )

    In the prequels, the light often foreshadows doom, etc., while the OT focuses on the addition of more light.

    Ahh, well, might as well dive fully into it...

    Tatooine: Tatooine is naturally a light planet; in the copy I have of TPM (the kid's softcover copy; I didn't have the $ for hardcover) Qui-Gon comments specifically on the "sun soaked planet...because of the two suns, a shadow could be found under only the highest of cliffs...somewhat ironic for the kind of people found there."

    The image of cliffs brings images of Anakin's podrace; remember how much of it takes place in the cliffs, the only "dark" part of Tatooine? Luke, another character who is constantly threatened by the Dark Side, played in Beggar's canyon as a child; obviously another place in Tatooine with cliffs.

    The image of a "sun-soaked planet" evokes the thought of the Force; it's obviously a prevalent presence on Tatooine, which is where both Anakin (The Chosen One) and Luke, his son, grow up.

    It seems like the sunset on Tatooine in ANH symbolizes the end of Luke's childhood, and also the beginning of the end of the Empire.

    More later...

    [This message has been edited by Jedi Master Mara Jade (edited 01-30-2000).]
  22. MacTusken

    MacTusken Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jul 29, 1999
    Jedi Master Mara Jade Wise words indeed on sunsets!

    In ROTJ of course, when the heroes rendevous, regroup, and reaffirm their commitment to each other before the final push towards defeating the Empire, the Tattoine outdoor sequences take place when the suns...Lukes' suns, are at their height. Indeed, Han speaks of how a "great dark blur" is becoming a great light blur - because of course, ROTJ is one of Han's great watershed momnets, where he realises where he truly belongs, and who he belongs with. (also the latent jealousy between himself and Luke over Leia is cleared up).

    In a sense, there is a certain arc bewtween Luke's sunset, and the sunrisde of ROTJ -whoch probably links into the forthcoming prequels. the sunet in ANH lets us know that events have passed beyond the hands of Anakins now -the torch of revolution and upheaval he carried as Son of ths Suns is passed now, to his son and daughter -and thuis, the suns set on his time of initiative. From then on, he reacts, rather than initiates. In ANH he is embroiled in maintaining the Emperor's project against its opposition -his moves are really defensive, in fact -he hunts the Princess because he knows that a weakness has been exposed as long as she holds the plans to the Death Star. In ESB, he is of course, obsessed with finding his son -again, a reaction to the revelation of his heir's re-appearance. Vader's plans for domination take on a new slant from this point -one that will weaken his tie to the Sith and to evil -his plans now must include his son -the two of them, of course- two sons of tattoine (excuse the intended pun).

    By ROTJ, as the sun rises on Luke's return to his and his father's home world, Vader is in fact, internally defeated. His sons rejection of him has wounded him deeply, and turns once loiyal devotion to the Emperor and plans of sedition into miserable, and sorrowful compliance of orders. Between the sunset and the sunrise in the OT, his world has changed, and his ultimate destiny approaches.
  23. JediGaladriel

    JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 3, 1999
    I like that a lot, and it's a very good analysis of the place of Tatooine in this universe. In fact, there are mentions in all the novelizations (imho, just extrapolations of what's on screen, but easier to quote). This is from the ANH novelization.

    It was a vast, shining globe and it cast a light of lambent topaz into space -- but it was not a sun. Thus, the planet had fooled men for a long time. Not until entering close orbit around it did its discoverers realize that this was a world in a binary system, and not a third sun itself.

    Henderson addresses this quote in The Magic of Myth, discussing it in terms of Luke as a solar hero (and Leia as the moon, and Vader the darkness from which both arose), but it takes on added significance now that we've learned Anakin's origins. Both of them originate from the "sun."

    (BTW, I also wanted to mention that I enjoyed the take on Maul's makeup. Excellent -- all that rot in the midst of apparent strength... the mirror of the galaxy itself at this point.)
  24. Jedi Master Mara Jade

    Jedi Master Mara Jade Jedi Padawan star 4

    Nov 8, 1999
    Okay, I'm back again (got cut off last night by various annoying members of my family)

    Tatooine, the Force, and Han Solo
    The theory of Tatooine's light= the Force is further proven in ROTJ and ANH, more specifically by Han Solo. In ANH we meet Han in a dim bar, whereas we meet Luke and later, Obi-Wan, in the light. We know that Han Solo is Force-blind, so it would make sense that we never actually see him in Tatooine's bright light. The one time he is in the two suns, he is blind. Lando, another Force-blind character, is wearing a mask at the time. Out of the main characters, only Luke and Leia can see clearly in Tatooine's light. Simultaneously, it is they who are sensitive to the Force, and can see in the Force's light. (okay, I'll stop babbling now)

    In my memory, we never see Yavin in the dark. If we assume the dark=the empire, this follows through. It makes even more sense for the Empire to be in the dark side of the planet, the dark Death Star itself, and in space, which is dark.

    If anyone else remembers further light coincidences, I'd be glad to analyze them; I don't own any videos except ANH, so I can't check.

    GL and color
    On one of the pre-movie interviews, I seem to remember GL saying something about the colors of the Rebels vs. the colors of the Empire. The Rebels are almost always seen in earthy colors (think of the first scene in ANH) while the Empire' minions are usually characterized by the prevalence of black, white, and gray (death star, Vader's capes, stormtroopers, etc.) So the Rebels are symbolized by living colors, and the Empire is symbolized by dead colors. In Ep. 1, the Senate chamber is gray, a dead color, foreshadowing the death of the Old Republic. However, Palpatine has blue, or white robes on at the end (someone help me here?)

    Foreshadowing in Ep. 1
    I think that scene where Qui-Gon is bartering the Podracer w/ Watto is really interesting b/c you can see Vader's shadow in the background~spooky! Also, Anakin's theme is very interesting; not only does it seguay into the Imperial March, it is also a countermelody to it (in other words, if you sing IM during Ani's theme at a slower tempo than usual, it is a harmonization)

    Cool analyzation of Maul and Vader, btw!

    [This message has been edited by Jedi Master Mara Jade (edited 01-30-2000).]
  25. clerk

    clerk Moderator Emeritus star 4 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 2, 1998
    Hey guys,

    My last post involved a discussion of the color Red, and now TF.N has posted the following pertinent update on their Episode 2 page:

    Blood Red in Episode II
    Tue, Feb 01, 00 08:47:18 AM EST

    TR-095 managed to acquire one of the tracks containing some Episode II clues that is being played at the Magic of Myth. Ever since the exhibit first was shown in Washington DC we've gotten mail on this piece.
    Well, now we have it available for download for everyone that missed it or for those who might want to run over it with a fine tooth comb looking for clues to Episode II.

    It's the MP3 from Magic of the Myth. Of course its the Imperial Guard exhibit. It talks about the Imperial Guard being the only color used in the Empire uniforms. At the end of it though, Lucas says in Episode II and III, you'll find out why the armor is a deep maroon, "like blood." A little bit foretelling of something big that happens in SW2?

    I suppose, upon hearing the audio clip, that this deliberate use of the colors white black and red reminds me of the fully intentional designing done by Hitler early in his design of the Nazi aesthetic. Here is a lengthy exceprt fom William Shirer's classic The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich:
    Inflamatory oratory and a radical, catchall program, important as they were for a fledgeling party out to attract attention and recruit mass support, were not enough, and Hitler now turned his attention to providing more -- much more. The first signs of his peculiar genius began to appear and make themselves felt. What the masses needed, he thought, were not only ideas -- a few simple ideas, that is, that he could ceaselessly hammer through their skulls -- but symbols that would win their faith, pageantry and color that would arouse them, and acts of violence which, if succesful, would attract adherents...
    In the summer of 1920, Hitler, the frustrated artist but now becoming the master propagandist, came up with an inspiration which can only be described as a stroke of genius. Wha the party lacked, he saw, was an emblem, a flag, a symbol, which would express what the new organization stood for and appeal to the imagination of the masses, who, as Hitler reasoned, must have some striking banner to follow and to fight under. After much thought and innumerable attempts at various designs he hit upon a flag with a red background and in the middle a white disk on which was imprited a black swastika. The hooked cross--the hakenkreuz--of the swastika, borrowed though it was from more ancient times, was to become a mighty and frightening symbol of the Nazi Party and ultimately of Nazi Germany. Whence Hitler got the idea of using it for both the flag and the insignia of the party he does not say in a lengthy disertation on the sublect in Mein Kampf.
    The hakenkreuz is as old, almost, as man on the planet. It has been found in the ruins of Troy and of Egypt and China. I myself have seen it in ancient Hindu and Buddhist relics in India. In more recent times it showed up as an official emblem in such Baltic states as Estonia and Finland...Hitler had undoubtedly seen it in Austria in the emblems of one ore the other Anti-Semitic parties and perhaps he was struck by it when the Erhardt Brigade came to Munich. He says that numerous designs suggested to him by party members invariably included the swastika and that "a dentist from Sternberg" actually delivered a design for the flag that "was not bad at all and quite close to my own."
    For the colors Hitler had of course rejected the black red and gold of the Weimar Republic. He declined to adopt the old imperial flag of red, white and black, but he liked its colors not only because, he says, they form, "the most brilliant harmony in existence," but because they were the colors of a Germany for which he had fought. But they had been given a new form, and so a swastika was added.
    Hitler reveled in the unique creation. "A symbol it really is!" he exclaims in Mein Kampf. "In red we see the social dea of the movement, in white the nationalist idea, in the swast
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