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Random Symbols (Ivory Tower: Episode 2)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by JediGaladriel, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. Rimkar

    Rimkar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 23, 1999
    This thread definitely needed to be brought up, and now that we know a lot more about Episode 2, I think we can more easily identify possible symbols.

    Anyways, I think a particualr scene that holds a deeper meaning would have to be the Coruscant chase. On the outside it's just a high speed action scene, but there's more to it than just that. First off, the scene takes place at night, which can't be good. ;)
    Previously, we had only been exposed to the upper levels of the planet Coruscant. We never even got so much as a glimpse of the depths or how far down that might be. Now, the chase for Zam takes our heroes to the bottom of this here-to-fore bottomless pit. Compare this to the Jedi Council chamber which sits at the very top of Coruscant, and I believe you'll see some nice Heaven/Hell symbolism. Anakin and Obi-Wan must decend into the depths of hell to confront the evil that is behind the assassination attempts. Once they reach the bottom they pause before entering the nightclub to catch their breath. Their entrance to the seedy nightclub has been likened to an old Western where the good guys burst into the saloon with all of the criminals surrounding him. The Jedi here are out of their element. Here they stick out like a sore thumb and are certainly not welcome. They have to walk in between and through this scum and villiany to complete their task. Corruption and evil are on both sides, just as it is for the Jedi Council as a whole. Lieutenant Faytonni, an apparently insignificant background character could be a powerful image if his character is in fact a Republic officer. What's more indicative of the Republic's decay than to see one of its own representatives glaring at the Jedi from an unscrupulous position? The clones will soon complete this decay, and provide the force Palpatine needs to dispose of the Jedi completely. At last the Jedi make their way through the confusion and hostility of the club to confront their attacker, but they do not defeat the evil and rise up triumphantly- they are misled by Jango Fett and his Kyber Dart. So as Anakin and Obi-Wan believe they finally know where the attacks are originating from, and corner the suspect, it turns out that they were looking in the wrong direction all along and must persue a new path. This is a good parallel to Palpatine's manipulations. No one can figure out where the menace really is until it's far too late

    Anyone else up for breaking down another AotC scene? :)
  2. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 23, 1999
    Did anyone mention the parallel of Boba/Luke yet?

    Both their fathers are 'killed'. Boba decides to follow his father's dark path (ie, follow in his footsteps.) Luke does the same... but Luke choose the light path.

    Luke lives. Boba dies (almost... but to avoid arguements, let's assume he died in the sarlacc).
  3. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Sep 23, 1999
    .Double Post
  4. GasCabbie

    GasCabbie Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jun 28, 2001
    Two Sith revealing themselves in Episode I and two Jedi in hiding by Episode IV. That's more of a quirky observation than a nice piece of symbolism, but it's a start!
  5. Moriarte

    Moriarte Jedi Knight star 5

    Aug 17, 2001
    In relation to the first couple of posts concerning light and dark. In RotJ, we see the heroes on Endor celebrating in the night. The threat of the evil empire, the threat of Palpatine and Vader are gone, thus they need not be afraid of the dark anymore.

    Ciou-See the Sig
  6. Echuta-Dyas

    Echuta-Dyas Jedi Youngling

    Jul 7, 2001
    I realize that it has been know for sometime now that the scene, with the Clonetroopers boarding the Military Cruisers, takes place at sunset. But with the release of the Breathing trailer I figured now was as good as time as any to tack on to my catalogue of sunsets on the previous page (p. 10).

    Anyway, the second sunset in the film, also represents change, and can be seen in proportion to the first sunset on Coruscant in TPM. The sun is continuing to set on the Republic. It first began to set with Palpatine's election, is continuing to descend further as the Republic is about to engage in full out war. Yoda's weighty dialogue at the conclusion of the scene captures the importance of the moment and of the film?s title. While the first sunset in AOTC underlines a sinister change in Anakin's character arch, here, the second sunset highlights the further corrosion of the Republic into the Empire.

    Both sunsets reflect some pretty grim stuff.
  7. Silmarillion

    Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Jul 20, 1999
  8. Tellesto

    Tellesto Jedi Knight star 5

    Dec 7, 1999
    Ah, I had no idea she had made one of these for Episode II.
  9. E CHU TA!

    E CHU TA! Jedi Padawan star 4

    Jan 8, 2000
    After reading the 2/11/02 post on the arena battle at Episode-X, something clicked. I always knew that the assault by the Clonetroopers was a ?duex et machinia? moment, but I never realized that there was a parallel to the OT. During the assault on the Death Star in ANH, Luke is almost destroyed by Vader. Vader is about to fire at Luke when, just at that moment, the Falcon takes out Vader?s two wingmen. Because, the audience was shown Han Solo leaving before the battle, the Falcon essentially appears to come out of nowhere to save the day. Vader is debilitated by one of the wingmen, and Luke is able to destroy the Death Star. In AOTC, we have pretty much the same situation. The remaining Jedi are about to be destroyed, and out of the sky (or out of nowhere) comes the Republic Gunships (LAAT/i). Luke is miraculously saved by the Flacon. The Jedi are miraculously saved by the Clones.

    This type of situation relates back to something that GL explained in the commentary on the TPM DVD. In the old Sci-fi serials, there was always a moment during the climax where it appeared that heroes would be destroyed. In the TPM, we have a point where Anakin?s fighter loses power, the Gungan army is defeated, the Queen is captured, Qui-gon is dying, and Obi Wan is hanging for his life. The same type of situation occurs in ROTJ. In that film, we have Luke, the rebels on Endor, and the rebel fleet at the second Death Star all about to be destroyed. (As a side note, the climax?s in TPM & ROTJ are also parallel to one another. For example, in the TPM there is a) a battle between a primitive & technological culture, b) an assault on a space station that is transmitting to the surface of a planet, & c) a duel between two Jedi & a Sith. Conversely, in ROTJ there is a) a battle between a primitive & technological culture, b) an assault on a shield generator that is transmitting from a moon to a space station, & c) a duel between two Sith & a Jedi.) The difference between the situations in ROTJ & TPM and the circumstances in AOTC & ANH is that, in the later films, the heroes in actuality have control over their own destiny. It just appears as though the heroes have lost control. In the end, the shield generator is destroyed by the rebels, and Anaikin does destroy the control ship. In ATOC and ANH, the heroes (Luke, the Jedi) need outside help (Solo, the Clones) in order to survive. The heroes are incapable of saving themselves. Hence, the use of ?duex et machinia.?

    (I guess now that I think about it, ?duex et machinia? is really more of a plot device than a symbol. So, I don?t know how appropriate it is to post this in this thread. Oh well.)

    While I?m here, I can also update my running catalogue of sunsets however. It seems apparent from 1) the cover of the Art of AOTC, and 2) the Arena playset shown at last weekends Toyfair, that the assault by the Clonetroppers on Geonosis takes place at sunset.


    Because this sunset takes place during the first strike of the Clone Wars, we again have an allusion to ?the Beginning of the End.? (i.e. the birth of the Empire at the conclusion of the war). Thematically, it?s pretty much the equivalent of the sunset at the end of the film:


    Well, that brings the total of sunsets in AOTC to three. For whatever it?s worth, that?s the most of any Star Wars film.
  10. Samurai-Jack

    Samurai-Jack Jedi Youngling star 2

    Nov 9, 2001
    In response to Jedi Eowyn's question:
    [blockquote]Spoony! What do you think the SW version of "there is no spoon" is? "There is no light sabre"? "There is no material universe"? "There is no death"?[/blockquote]
    I think Yoda had the answer when he said this:
    You must unlearn what you have learned.

    The plot outline for the prequel trilogy and Anakins fall to the darkside is all in the first trailer.

    Fear leads to Anger
    Anger leads to Hate
    Hate leads to Suffering

    As each episode shows a different stage in Anakins fall so does each emotion.
    Anakin shows fear in Episode 1.
    Anakin shows anger in Episode 2.
    Will Anakin show hate in Episode 3?
    Finally in Episodes 4-6 Anakin is seen suffering. He is suffering from the loss of his friends, love, family, and his humanity.
    He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

    What does the name Dooku mean?

    I feel cold here.

    Yoda and Anakin:
    How feel you?
    Cold sir.

    Cold is linked with fear and the darkside in these two statements. It links both Luke and Anakin together and the two trilogies.

    Here is a good discussion on George the [link=]visual poet[/link].
  11. Samurai-Jack

    Samurai-Jack Jedi Youngling star 2

    Nov 9, 2001
    The following passage from the Bible made me think of Palpatine/Sidious and Count Dooku.

    Daniel 11:21-28

    21 "He will be succeeded by a contemptible person who has not been given the honor of royalty. He will invade the kingdom when its people feel secure, and he will seize it through intrigue.

    22 Then an overwhelming army will be swept away before him; both it and a prince of the covenant will be destroyed.

    23 After coming to an agreement with him, he will act deceitfully, and with only a few people he will rise to power.
    24 When the richest provinces feel secure, he will invade them and will achieve what neither his fathers nor his forefathers did. He will distribute plunder, loot and wealth among his followers. He will plot the overthrow of fortresses--but only for a time.

    25 "With a large army he will stir up his strength and courage against the king of the South. The king of the South will wage war with a large and very powerful army, but he will not be able to stand because of the plots devised against him.

    26 Those who eat from the king's provisions will try to destroy him; his army will be swept away, and many will fall in battle.

    27 The two kings, with their hearts bent on evil, will sit at the same table and lie to each other, but to no avail, because an end will still come at the appointed time.

  12. Nimrodel

    Nimrodel Jedi Youngling

    May 17, 2002

    About the flow of time comments of FiendishJedi above: I was interested by the comment about the jedi knowing that they're waiting for the prophesy of someone (Anakin?) bringing balance to the force. While Windu, Yoda & Kenobi are chatting, they mention that perhaps only Anakin can bring balance to the current lack of balance in the Jedi/Sith set up. It made me think how much of this is in many ways a wait for the prophesy. Waiting for it to come true.

    Somewhere, in RotJ?, didn't someone say that the emperor knew that the children of Anakin would be a danger to him? In many ways, the time flow of the trilogies is toward those two prophesies coming true. And oddly, they are the same. Luke defeating the Emperor happens when Anakin brings balance to the force. I wonder if the Emperor knew that the battle would be for a father and son's loyalties.


    As to the chase - I especially loved the willingness of Anakin to fall. And Obi Wan's survival of his fall. Through Star Wars there seems to be a tension between the natural flow and failures: falling successfully vs. falling dangerously, dying successfully vs. dying without meaning, sunsets which mark necessary conclusions vs. sunsets that mark failures. Anakin & Obi Wan are both caught in currents through the whole episode. I suspect Obi Wan measures success by whether they are balancing the force and Anakin measures success by how he feels about things. Thus they're both falling, as neither is working out. And in the very very end of RotJ, Anakin manages both at the same time! :)


    Obi Wan adds politics to the list of people in masks. That the politician needs to hold a campaign, and pay for that campaign, causes a need for a mask self. A different self for each fund raiser. I wonder how far Lucas will take this. So far Amidala's alternate faces have been the decoy handmaids, one of whom died in this episode. (Alas poor Cordé, we hardly knew ye!)

    loss of arm/mark of Tyr

    In Norse myth, the loss of the arm of Tyr marked that he could only give victory to one side in a war. To some extent, the loss of the hand of Anakin seemed to me to mark the moment when he started making significant decisions that would lead to his giving final victory to one side or the other. Running the camera over his patently fake hand seemed to me to emphasize that he is now one handed & this is the beginning of his redemption. The marriage to Padme marks the step toward saving Luke.

    That the thread was called "Ep II" I think referred this being the second installment of the Ivory Tower threads.
  13. Nimrodel

    Nimrodel Jedi Youngling

    May 17, 2002
    Meaning of Dooku: Sounds sort of like "cuckoo" - which makes me think of an inserted little chick, which does fit. But the link isn't close enough to hold too much water.

    Samurai-Jack - I loved your line up of the fear/anger/hate/suffering with the prequel movies: 1, 2, 3. For me it plays into the question of what's a dark side path v. a light side path. And with Anakin, I wonder if the issue is that it is necessary to include a dark side path in the picture in order to bring back the harmony. Sort of a "what if the world needs a bad guy" kind of question. And that's a sticky one.

    Re the Biblical echoes for Dooku: The Bible, I think, has a recurring theme that corruption shall fade and justice shall survive. This maybe the underlying current in Star Wars, also. The final hope is that corruption will fail (fall) and justice shall endure. To some extent maybe the series is an attempt to fit a modern science fiction narrative to exactly that story arc. What would be a story in which we'd see corruption fail and justice survive without justice actually having the upper hand in power or luck? Star Wars, maybe.

    symbolism of riding the beasts: I was thinking that it was somewhat symbolic in the arena when Anakin managed to tame the beast. For fun on Naboo, he couldn't manage to ride the beast, but in the arena, when it was absolutely necessary for his sake and the sake of the people around him, Anakin managed to harness an unwilling beast. Amidala was able to leap down behind him and share his ride. Kenobi also leapt up to ride the animal that Anakin was able to tame for them. Thus perhaps a relationship to the force and the galaxy? Anakin, when his back is to the wall, will be able to harness things which no one else can - and he will save both the political universe (Amidala) and the spiritual universe (Kenobi).

    Thus Anakin's fall & the success are prefigured: Anakin falls from the beast on Naboo but harnesses the beast on Genosis. Thus Anakin saves two groups, political and spiritual. Amidala & Kenobi will be echoed later by Leia and Luke. And I suspect Anakin can only manage the grand salvations for the sake of the others (Amidala, Kenobi, Luke, Leia) and not for himself.
  14. Nimrodel

    Nimrodel Jedi Youngling

    May 17, 2002
    Again with the symbolism of names - and here "Jocasta." One of the few spoilers I hit pre movie was her name, and I didn't hear it in the movie, so I'm not sure it counts. But in any case, in Greek myth, Jocasta was the woman who tried to defeat an ominous prophesy by casting out her infant son, an event that boomerangs. She marries twice, the second time, that very son, leading to the mushrooming of the curse of the gods on her town and the son's self imposed exile & gouging out his own eyes.

    In any event, it's not a good omen when the one of the aged women characters is named Jocasta. Her name alludes to a figure who embraced bad solutions which amplified problems.
  15. Gonk

    Gonk Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 8, 1998
    I for one think the entire scenario with 3P0 is of incredible symbolic significance. MAny here have already pointed out 3P0 as Anakin's 'Avatar'. Well, think about what happens to 3P0 one Geonosis. He is put onto the conveyor belt with all the reast of the droid armies: head head is cut off-- his ability to think taken away. During the battle he shoots on the Jedi, even says things against them. The fact he is simulatniously good and evil here perfectly reflects Anakin's state, and the part where 3P0 is on the conveyor belt (as well as the sequence where Anakin's hand is trapped on another conveyorbelt by solid steel) showcases his future. He will become one of a mass of slaves.
  16. Nimrodel

    Nimrodel Jedi Youngling

    May 17, 2002
    Good points! I hadn't spent much time on that, but yes, the droids do act as emblems in the droid factory scene. It's nice to have the hopeful hint that Amidala will be able to fly away. (I'm hoping that she survives ep 3.)

    Significance of Arenas: Amidala's line that she was leaving Palpatine and Corcuscant in Ep 1 came back to me as she was hauled into the arena in ep 2. "This is not my arena" she said to Palpatine. In the second movie - I suspect that still is his arena. But she's no longer got a choice? And she'll slug it out in someone else's arena.

    I've been wracking my brain for why introduce the shape shifter - the role could have been played by a "solid" (so to speak). So I'm figuring that we're supposed to see how people in masks are shape shifters. And thus anyone willing to wear a mask is a shape shifter of sorts. Which includes all the politicians - who are doubled by the advertising board neon ads which Obi Wan references when discussing cost of elections.

  17. woody_1138

    woody_1138 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Nov 17, 2000
    I thought the "changeling" was a nice lesson: Things aren't always what they seem.

    Zam starts off as a "guy" in the heroes minds. Which is almost an unintentional sexist assumption.
    Then Anakin realizes that it (or at least it's appearance) is a "she".
    And then it turns out to be neither of's a shapeshifter.

    It's a good lesson for Anakin and Obi-Wan to learn at the beginning of this movie, because a lot of the people in the film are not what they seem: Palpatine, Dooku, Yoda (he seems harmless doesn't he), even the tilt up after the crawl played with our expectations, etc.

  18. Nimrodel

    Nimrodel Jedi Youngling

    May 17, 2002
    I see what you're saying about this being a lesson to the Jedi to back off of quick judgments. Adding gender instability is a nice touch for Star Wars.

    When I pause to think of shape-shifters - I think of them as characters like werewolves or Jeckel/Hydes. As two different personalities with very little idea of what the other personality is doing.

    In the case of Palpatine/Sideous, there seems to be some of that going on. Which persona knows what and how are they connected? It's the stuff of Jeckel/Hyde. In the case of Amidala, I find myself wondering if she's as much a politician as Obi Wan thinks, someone who knows the need to keep support from various directions by keeping her image clean. But does she know where the contradictions will go. When the time comes, she's willing to use that army that she protested at the beginning of the film.

    Similarly the Jedi order seems to be doing a bit of the shape shifting, being dutiful on Corcuscant but hiring up clone armies on Genosis & and apparently unaware of their own internal inconsistencies.

    The shape shifter is a character that seems very much the victim of circumstance, be it medicine or moon light. While the SW characters are victims of their circumstances, they will appear like shape shifters, inconsistent from one scene to the next?
  19. jedi-girl

    jedi-girl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 14, 2000
    this thread is a gem :)
  20. jedi-girl

    jedi-girl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Aug 14, 2000
    this thread is a gem :)
  21. no-limit-padowan

    no-limit-padowan Jedi Youngling

    May 28, 2002
  22. Darth Portnoy

    Darth Portnoy Jedi Youngling star 1

    Oct 14, 1998

    This thread is fantastic. I have been soooooo sick and tired reading about the whole EU vs OT vs Canon vs Palpatine is a CLone nonsense that I almost left this forum again (for a second time).

    Bump for EVERYONE to read!
  23. a. block

    a. block Jedi Master star 1

    Oct 1, 1999
    Where has this thread been?

    I'm interested if anybody's given thought to all of the off camera stuff. There are a few scenes where the camera is panning while people are heard from elsewhere. Like when Anakin and Obi are discussing politics while the camera shows the assassin droid through Padme`'s room. There is at least another scene where such a thing happens and there could be more. I ask because I thought it was kind of overdramatic when the shadows of Anakin and Padme` hugged, instead of just showing them. But because I've since noticed the other off camera "stuff" I'm trying to figure out what it could mean. Any thoughts? Or am I way off?
  24. Samurai-Jack

    Samurai-Jack Jedi Youngling star 2

    Nov 9, 2001
    Nimrodel thanks for the compliment.
    I would have replied sooner, but I haven?t been around for a while.
  25. foxbatkllr

    foxbatkllr Jedi Knight star 6

    Jul 27, 2001
    Why did you up this thread?
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