Random Symbols (Ivory Tower: Episode 2)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by JediGaladriel, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    I don't know.
    Call me sentimental.

    I just thought maybe someone new could contribute to this old discussion.

    Maybe keeping this thread alive will help others to look at things in a different way.

    I know I did.
  2. E CHU TA! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2000
    star 4
    First off, I liked to start by patting myself on the back a little bit. (Good job Brian!) In my 2/12/02 post , I made a connection between the Millennium Falcon's rescue of Luke in ANH and Yoda's rescue of the Jedi in AOTC. I then went on to relate this type of plot device (dues ex macina) back to the old sci-fi serials.
    In the audio commentary on the AOTC DVD, GL says the exact same thing. He first states that the scene is indeed a parallel Han Solo's rescue of Luke in ANH and then explains how his inspiration for this scenario was the cliffhanger sequences of the sci-fi serials.
    [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/landing4.jpg] [image=http://www.starwars.stopklatka.pl/images/falcon2.jpg]
    See, I do know what I'm talking about. ;)Now, if I could only convince someone to go along with my Episode III title theory.

    Next, I would like to add to the running catalogue of sunsets. To reiterate once again, sunsets in a Star Wars film symbolize change (Sunset Post #1 - 1/31/01; Sunset post #2 - 11/7/01 - <Echuta-dyas> ; Sunset post #3 - 2/12/02 ). For some reason, I have forgotten to mention the first sunset in AOTC. It takes place during the introduction scene in Padme's apartment.
    [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/4056.jpg]
    Basically, this sunset foreshadows the major events of the film. Obi-wan and Anakin are meeting Padme for the first time in 10 years. The two Jedi have been given an assignment which will result in 1) Obi-Wan's discovery of the clones and the subsequent Clone Wars, and 2) Anakin and Padme falling in love and their sequent marriage. That brings the total number of sunsets in AOTC to four (if you count the final sequence from Darth Tyranus's avival through the wedding as one sunset). And yes, AOTC still has the most sunsets of any Star Wars film.
    ...I thought it was kind of overdramatic when the shadows of Anakin and Padme` hugged, instead of just showing them. ...I'm trying to figure out what it could mean. Any thoughts? Or am I way off?

    To start with, in the audio commentary, GL mentioned that the inspiration for the scene was the teaser poster for TPM.
    [image=http://www.classicouk.com/oldsite/scans/postcard%20scans/106%20gif/106-048.jpg]
    However, a. block you are right to assume that there is symbolic significance in the shot. As I have mentioned in my first sunset post, the slaughter scene is essentially the turning point in the Prequel Trilogy.

    The entire sequence (the departure, Shmi's death, the slaughter, the confession) is a series of parallels to the OT. As GL, mentioned in the audio commentary the departure is a parallel to the Luke?s crater/sunset scene in ANH. In both instances, the two heroes are poised to meet their destiny. The speeder bike scene can be seen in proportion to Luke rushing to rescue Han, Leia, and Chewie in Empire. (Consequently, in Empire, Vader remembers how Shmi's suffering drew him to Tatoone like a beacon. and applies the same tactic on Han to draw Luke to Bespin.) The sunset in the background foreshadows Shmi's death, the slaughter, and resulting change that is about to take place in Anakin. Shmi's death scene is shot in as a reverse angle of Anakin's death scene in ROTJ. In ATOC, Anakin holds Shmi from the left side of the frame and she dominates the right side of the frame. In ROTJ, Luke holds Anakin from the right side of the frame and he dominates the left side of the frame. When Shmi dies her head falls back and toward the right of the frame. When Anakin dies his head falls
  3. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    ^^

    I wish I could write posts like that.

  4. JediHPDrummer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2002
    star 3
    The Anakin and Padme Love story holds a lot of symbolism, some of it was very light but at times it was dark symbolizing their forbidden love. John Williams created a Love theme for Episode II, to symbolize the relationship between Anakin and Padme. The Love theme is very beautiful, but you can hear a tragic element to it because we know they will not end up together in the future. When they first meet in Episode 2, you hear the sweet Anakin theme play in the background symbolizing that he?s still a little boy and innocent, but throughout the movie Anakin wants to prove to Padme he has grown up.
    When Anakin and Padme leave for Naboo, that?s when you start seeing beauty in their relationship. They go stay in a segregated place to keep Padme safe. When they first kiss, its beautiful outside, the sky is blue and between them are roses. The music is light; a lot of flute and harp in the beginning but when they kiss the Episode 2 love theme plays in forte. This symbolizes the beauty and love between them. The rose is a motif in their relationship; it?s the motif of love. Whenever we see the rose, we see them being sympathetic and caring to each other. We see them getting married right buy it and how it is still fresh and alive.
    Another great scene in the love story is the meadow picnic scene. The first thing you see in this scene is that it?s very open and the camera is panning to both of them showing that they are together, in earlier shots only one of them were in the shots. The open space Symbolizes the freedom of being together, not having to worry about their careers. While in Coruscant where they have to work, it?s a lot more vertical and Closter phobic, there?s very little room. You also see water and grass which symbolize cleansing, Anakin feels comfortable around her, his Jedi cloak is off his body in this scene. Symbolizing his comfortableness with Padme and being free of the Jedi, and Padme is wearing a more comfortable style of clothing. They feel at peace with each other, and whenever they are together they are themselves. They get to laugh and smile with each other.
    After they have a picnic Anakin rides on a nice herbivore animal, no predators to worry about. The Love theme is more upbeat, and the notes are higher symbolizing their happiness with each other. They have a fun time, Anakin jokes around with her making her smile and laugh, something a senator doesn?t often do. However, on the horizon you see clouds which aren?t where they are yet but are moving to them foreshadowing there future. There are clouds also when they are wed in the end of the movie. The clouds are a constant motif in star wars episode 2 representing a dark future
  5. JediHPDrummer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2002
    star 3
    The Constant Motif in the Star Wars saga is fire, whenever we see fire we see something emotional happening within the characters, especially Anakin and Luke. In Episode 1, we see a young boy name Anakin who is to be ceased as the chosen one by Qui Gon Jinn. Qui Gon was a very close character to Anakin; he freed him and helped him achieve his dreams, to be a Jedi but he is separated from his mother who he has a very big emotional attachment with. When Qui Gon dies, Qui Gon asks Obi-Wan Kenobi to train Anakin. Obi wan takes his maters words and fully achieves that by telling Anakin at Qui Gon?s funeral where Qui Gon is burned. The fire symbolizes the beginning of Anakin?s journey to become a Jedi.
    Ten years later Anakin is grown up and has become a very arrogant person. He wants to take control of things; he believes Obi wan is not letting him want to do what he wants to. When Anakin goes with Padme to Naboo, we see Anakin and his emotions take control. When Anakin spends enough time with Padme, they end up in a room with fire. Where Anakin speaks his emotions and spills his heart out to her. Padme is wearing a dark black dress symbolizing and foreshadowing their relationship and Anakin?s downfall because his emotions for Padme.
    The fire appears later in the movie where he finds out his mother is slaved by tusken raiders. When he leaves, he tries to rescue her, he drops down from a cliff symbolizing a falling angel going into hell. When he is at the camp there is fire and they cut from Anakin to a barking aggressive creature symbolizing Anakin?s anger and rage. When he opens the hut, the fire glares at his face, while he sees his mom crucified. As she dies he doesn?t know what to do, the music is haunting and he looks confused. S the music crescendo?s the angrier Anakin?s face is, and he steps out of the hut and kills all the tusken raiders. We see it is a dawn when he does this, showing the dawn or the beginning of Darth Vader.
    We see Anakin go through fire in his life, in the most emotional and most important times of his life. I?m sure Lucas in Episode 3 will put fire of how he gets injured when he becomes Darth Vader. In Return of the Jedi, he dies by fire, Luke burns him as was Qui Gon. All through his life, fire was there in every intense moment of his life.
  6. The_Abstract Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2002
    star 4
    Big props to E CHU TA! for running the numbers on the prequels. I think that's enough evidence that the Sith Rule of 2 is a plausible plot device.

    One thing that I've been noticing a lot in watching the DVD is the contrast of Anakin's Jedi robes to the landscape and to other people. This becomes really prevelant on Tatooine where the twin suns bake the planet into a thick crust of wasteland. When he left Tatooine he more or less blended in to the landscape with his simple and light rags. Now he comes back descending from outer space in dark brown and black leather, with his dark brown cape flapping in the stiff desert breeze. No wonder Owen was so wary of him. It's obvious Anakin was different than the average Jedi.
  7. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    Clouds are another repeated theme in the trilogy.

    AOTC starts off with the Queens ship flying through massive cloud cover on Coruscant. As they land the ship is destroyed.
    Yoda: The Darkside clouds everything.
    Which is made even more ominous by the fact that Palpatine is right in front of him.
    Then the scene to match this is in ESB when Luke flys through the cloud cover of Dagobah to find Yoda.

    Obi-Wan goes to Kamino a planet that is continually covered in storms and clouds. He is nearly killed by Jango Fett. Jango believes he is dead after watching him fall off of the landing platform.
    When Luke goes to Cloud City he fights Vader and then lets himself fall off of the platform.

  8. Smuggler-of-Mos-Espa Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2002
    star 6
  9. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    E CHU TA! why do you think Jango was decapitated in the second film of the PT and Vander was decapitated in the second film of the OT?

    Here are some of the things I have noticed about AOTC.

    During the Clone War Obi-Wan calls Anakin "my young padawan." Then during the duel Yoda calls Dooku "my old padawan."

    When Darth Tyranus says "the force is with us" it reminded me of the scene in ESB when Vader says "the force is with you Skywalker but you are not a Jedi yet."

    What is cool about the duel in AOTC is the fact that it is so much like the one in ESB. First Anakin attacks but is taken out by the force lightning. Then Obi-Wan fights Dooku but is defeated. Anakin tries again but loses an arm. Finally Yoda arrives and defeats Dooku. Dooku tries to distract Yoda the same way Vader did when he fought Luke. In this case Yoda was strong enough in his knowledge of the force to defend himself. Yoda and Obi-Wan interfered in this duel as opposed to their non-interference policy when Luke and Vader fought. Of course both Anakin and Luke rushed into the fight and both lost limbs.

    Both Anakin and Luke rush to save their friends but they end up being the ones that need to be saved.
  10. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    The shot of Anakin and Padme walking toward C3P0 reminded me of the shot in ROTJ when The Emperor and Vader are walking away from the shuttle.

    [image=http://www.natalieportman.com/images/movies/swep2/10.jpg] [image=http://www.georgettesworld.com/main/vaderemperor.jpg] [image=http://www.natalieportman.com/images/movies/swep2/13.jpg]
  11. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    This thread is fantastic. It shall never die. I've read a lot of interesting stuff here.
  12. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    So a poster a few posts back mentioned things about fire, and how fire plays a role in Anakin's life. How it is a beginning and an end to Anakin's multiple important turning points. With that in mind...

    ...look at where Anakin and Obi-Wan supposedly fight in Episode III.
  13. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    Something has been on my mind lately.
    In AOTC Dooku says "I have become more powerful than any Jedi."
    In ANH Obi-Wan says to Vader "If you strike me down I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."
    Are they both talking about the same kind of power or am I just jumping at shadows?


    Here is an excerpt from Second Foundation by Isaac Asimov.

    ?You won?t understand why that was, unless you can once again feel the intellectual atmosphere of the days of the dying Empire. It was a time of absolutes, of the great final generalities, at least in thought.
    It was a sign of decaying culture, of course, that dams had been built against the further development of ideas.
    It was his revolt against these dams that made Seldon famous. It was that one last spark of youthful creation in him that lit the Empire in a sunset glow and dimly foreshadowed the rising sun of the Second Empire.


    If you look closely you can see what kind of influence The Foundation Novels had on GL.
  14. Emi-Yan_Tetu Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 2
  15. Falls_the_Shadow Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 3
    This year 2000 post turned out to be quite on target for AOTC:

    Jedi Galadriel: Actually, Emuboy, you might not be far off with that guess about someone being blinded in the prequels; now that you've said it, it almost feels ordained. Amidala, the symbol of wisdom and purity? Obi-Wan seems an even more likely candidate, perhaps a blindness of a similar duration to Han's. Or maybe it is Anakin, and it serves the dual function of symbol and plot point -- his blindness (to his surroundings and to the nature of the deal he's made) being the cause of his fall, both literally and figuratively. Or perhaps, in a different vein, his salvation -- his deliberate blindness to Amidala's actions regarding her pregnancy and the birth of the children?

    Captain Typho, the new chief of Security for Amidala, is blind in one eye and wears an eyepatch.

    Yoda declares to Mace after Kenobi's Kamino message: "Blind we are if creation of this Clone Army we could not see."

    Anakin to Padme on the morning balcony, speaking about his nightmare: "I see her [Shmi] as clearly as I see you."
  16. classixboy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Not to mention that the Jedi have been figuratively blind all along. I think that there will be a *real* blinding in ep. 3 -- probably Anakin or Padme -- which would make Han's comical blinding in ROTJ a kind of resolution to the theme.

    I've only just discovered this thread -- really insightful. Though I'm afraid to post for fear of repeating things that have already been said.
  17. E CHU TA! Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2000
    star 4
    To start with, I'd like to thank everyone who complemented me on my 12/9/02 post. I'd also like to apologize for all its grammar errors and wording mistakes. :(

    The Constant Motif in the Star Wars saga is fire

    ...look at where Anakin and Obi-Wan supposedly fight in Episode III.

    The link between fire and Anakin has been mentioned through out this thread and many others. I think JediHPDrummer did an o.k. job of listing the occurrences of fire throughout the saga. To summarize, fire (like the color red) symbolizes Anakin's passion, aggression, and anger. These three traits overcome Anakin, and in proportion, he is literally consumed by "fire" (the lava in Episode III, the pyre in ROTJ).

    For some reason, the connection between water and Padme is not mentioned as much as the fire motif. (See the following pages for further discussion: 1, 2, 3, 5). In ATOC, this relationship is symbolized by the waterfall and the lake. Padme's association with water is an extension of the fire motif. She has a calming effect on Anakin. In fact, he tells her "You're presence is soothing."

    why do you think Jango was decapitated in the second film of the PT and (Vader) was decapitated in the second film of the OT?

    First off, I?d like to point out that the act of decapitation itself was written for practical reasons. Both Vader and Jango are covered in armor. The only way to get a clean kill on these characters is by decapitation.

    However, Samurai-Jack, you are correct to assume that there is a symbolic connection between the two decapitations. The father/son relationship of Vader/Luke and Jango/Boba can be seen as parallels of one another. With Boba we have a son who follows in the foot steps of his father. In episodes 4, 5, & especially 6, there is the fear that Luke will follow the same path as Boba. In fact, in the annotated screenplays, GL states that the biggest danger for Luke in ROTJ is that he will become like Vader.

    The decapitations do provide for a "Yorick" scene for both sons. When Luke decapitates Vader, he sees his own face. This represents his family connection to Vader and his own potential to become Vader. After Jango is decapitated, Boba has a scene where he is face to face with Jango's helmet. This essentially creates a mirror image. He will later wear a copy of the helmet.
    Now he comes back descending from outer space in dark brown and black leather, with his dark brown cape flapping in the stiff desert breeze.

    The_Abstract, the visual dictionary for AOTC states that Anakin's uniform does cause him to stand out from the other Jedi. Later in ROTJ, Luke wears black as well. The similarity in the uniforms causes the audience to associate Luke with Anakin and Vader.

    The coloring of Anakin?s outfit also visually connects him with Palpatine and Dooku. Black and brown are the predominate color in all three of these characters' costumes. GL uses the costumes to create a relationship between the three characters. The audience may only be aware of the connection on a subconscious level.
    [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/c/dooku/dooku.jpg] [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/c/anakin/promo5.jpg] [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/c/palpatine/3.jpg]

    Speaking of visuals cues, the manner in which Palpatine is photographed also has symbolic significance. GL often shoots Palpatine in profile. By positioning a character sideways to the camera, it suggests that he or she is being secretive. Because the audience cannot see his or her whole face, it suggests that the individual is hiding somethin
  18. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    Greetings Falls_the_Shadow!
    Do you believe is Padme blinded by love?
    Could that be the reason she has chosen to ignore what Anakin did to the sand people?

    Another fine post E CHU TA!.

    Now that you mention water. Is there a connection between the Gungans and the Kaminoans? Both groups have a strong connection to water. The Gungans of course live underwater. So far they are the only group of aliens that has been shown living underwater. I feel as if there is more to that whale rider than just another cool effects shot. The Kaminoans are very mysterious. I guess we will have to wait until Episode III.

    Why would George create a character (Jar-Jar) that has been the focus of so much hate? I think that Jar-Jar will play a big role in Episode III and truly earn the hate that has been directed towards him. I wonder if this character will be similar to The Mule from Isaac Asimov?s Foundation novels? When we first meet him he is playing the role of a clown. But in reality he is actually a mutant with the ability to control people?s emotions. It would be a nice parallel to Anakin?s fall. Both start out as good and sometimes annoying people and both become evil. On the commentary track for Episode II Lucas says that there are mind tricks going on in the meeting when Palpatine suggest that someone should raise the issue of giving him emergency powers. We all know that Jar-Jar proposes this idea to the Senate, but was it Palpatine using mind tricks on Jar-Jar or Jar-Jar using mind tricks on Palpatine?

    Welcome classixboy. Feel free to post what is on your mind. As Yoda would say fear not.
    Have you read the original Random symbols (total ivory tower stuff) thread?

    EDIT:
    Here is another good thread:
    Execution Arena Symbolism
  19. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2


    [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/legacy.jpg] [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/legacy1.jpg]
  20. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/legacy.jpg] [image=http://www.sgtfretsurfer.com/Grilled-Sarlacc/s/i/legacy1.jpg]
  21. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    Sorry about the double post. [face_blush]


    The scene in which Boba touches his head to Jango?s helmet is one of the finest scenes in the entire series. It also goes beyond Star Wars. As many people know Temuera Morrison is Maori. The Maori have a custom called ?The Hongi ?.

    The Hongi- Formal Greeting
    When the speeches are completed, the visitors and hosts come together to "hohou i te rongo" (seal a peace pact). This is achieved by the touching of foreheads, noses, shaking hands and sharing of breath. The action requires a pressing of noses rather than a rubbing of noses.



    Now back to Jango Fett. In one of the previous post someone pointed out that C-3PO is similar to Anakin because he is both good and evil at the same time. Jango is also good and evil simultaneously. On one hand he is the evil bounty hunter who has tried to kill Obi-Wan and Padme. On the other hand he is the army of clones that saves the day.


    If you watch TPM and AOTC closely you will see that Jar-Jar is on hand during some of the most important events.

    • Jar-Jar just happened to be walking by when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon first arrive on Naboo.

    • Jar-Jar takes the Jedi to Otoh Gunga to meet Boss Nass.

    • When Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan meet the queen and then decide to leave Naboo for Coruscant.

    • When Padme and Qui-Gon first meet Anakin.

    • When Qui-Gon to makes the bet against Watto for Anakin's freedom.

    • He is shown talking to Amidala before she decides on going back to Naboo.

    • He is there when Anakin and Padme see each other for first time in Episode II.

    • He is there when Palpatine suggests that Obi-Wan should protect Padme.

    • He is the one who makes the speech to the Senate to give Palpatine emergency powers.

    • He is there at the end of EP. II on the balcony overlooking the Republics army.



    Cool thread: WARNING: The following link will take you to the Episode 3 (spoilers) forum!! TPM payoff in 3:What you don't realize about yourself---unescapable psychological ramifications.


    One last thought and then I am outta here.

    Does Anakin blame Padme for losing his mother? Is she the reason he left her in the first place?

    Happy New Year everyone. :D

    YJ edit: Added warning about link to spoiler forum. :)
  22. Pooja Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    Holy crap... I never noticed that... Anakin can see things clearly, and the Jedi cannot... wow. This stuff is great you guys, there is just tons of details in the prequels... heck I'll even go as far to say even moreso than the OT films.
  23. Samurai-Jack Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2001
    star 2
    Warning the link I posted above
    (TPM payoff in 3:What you don't realize about yourself---unescapable psychological ramifications.)
    is in the Episode III (Spoilers Allowed) forum.
  24. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    Samurai-Jack, I added the warning in for you. :)


    By the way, I'd like to say that there is some really great discussion going on in this thread. Keep it up! :)
  25. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Apparently "Dooku" is Japanese for "poison."

    For me, this brings to mind the scene in the Princess Bride (I'm sure it's older though) where a character is challenged to choose between 2 drinks, having been told that one of them contains poison; his enemy will drink the other. Does he take the drink nearest himself? Or the drink nearest his enemy? Is it a bluff, or a double bluff? etc. etc. It turns out that the enemy has built up an immunity to the poison, both drinks are poisoned and whichever one he takes, he loses. The only way to win is not to take part.

    I guess the scene with Obi Wan is where this comes into context. Should Obi Wan take Dooku's side (the Seperatists) or stay with the Republic? Either choice seems to spell certain doom; Dooku's droid army is apparently powerful enough to overwhelm the Jedi; the Republic's new clone army can do the job equally well. Whichever side they join in the fight, we know that they are bound to eventually lose.
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