Random Symbols (Ivory Tower: Episode 2)

First time postingon this particular topic. But, here goes nothing.

In TPM the way the camera moves when approaching the Jedi Council's temple(High Angle, moving from left to right), is shown identically the way Palpatine's tower on the second Death Star in ROTJ is.

My poin? Both structures' architectural design are VERY similar to each other. Perhaps this is just a sense of who's in charge before everything hits the proverbial fan.

 

Clerk, it is good to read from you again. any word on when your book will be ready?

anyway... Lucas is very knowledgeable about the importance and cultural meaning of colors. he has said that ep II will be mostly a love story. red is not only a color of blood rites and agression, but also a color of passion and love (A'la the up coming Valentines Day). In some cultures the bride's wedding dress is supposed to be red. It will be interesting to see how GL will use this paradox of color meaning in ep II.

anyway... i just wanted this topic back on top.

as always, this is just a thought

 

Hi everyone! Sorry, I missed the new thread, and went and posted on the old one. : ( So I'm copying some of what was said there to here, along with what baggles said, and a comment of Hol's which I was responding to. Ooooops. (I also fixed a misspelling... you don't need to know all this, do you?)

Hôl
Jedi Knight posted 01-26-2000 07:12 PM
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But first, allow me to toss in
Starlines

Existence or lack thereof. We see a complete lack of starlines in E1. But one only sees starlines from inside the ship entering hyperspace, never from outside -- perhaps in this first trilogy the plot is being shown from the outside, as in the OT it was shown from the inside?

IP: Logged

Jedi Eowyn
Jedi Knight posted 02-04-2000 03:08 AM
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Starting a new thread is a good idea, but I'll have more to contribute after the movie comes out on video! : )
"Return of the Jedi": IF the Jedi who RE-Turned is Anakin (he turned to the dark side, and then turned again to the light side) THEN it is prefigured in his departure from his mother. Anakin is going with Qui Gon, turns back to his mother, and then returns to Qui Gon.

That inside/outside thing is EXTREMELY interesting. The point of view in 4-6 is (mostly) inside the ship and "with" the characters, whereas the point of view in 1 is (mostly) "at" the characters? Another example of that is if we compare the trash room scene of episode 4 with the gas room scene of episode 1: in episode 4 we see our main characters struggling in the hostile room, going through the complete struggle, but we don't see them emerge. In episode 1 however, we get the suggestion of how the Jedi struggle to survive and then we move to the droid perspective outside the room where we see the Jedi emerge. We've shifted from a focus on time spent with immediate relationships to a focus on time spent engaging the bigger community.

And once more to the "always a bigger fish" comment in the bongo: I'm wondering if that is the essense of Qui Gon's faith system, and the biggest fish of all for him is the force, and he allows himself to be consumed by the force.

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baggles
Jedi Knight posted 02-04-2000 10:31 AM
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WHat about the carbon freezing chamber scene in TESB??
Doesn't that seem to be the inverted opposite of a wedding ceremony?
You have Vader standing amongst all the steam and he is staring at Han/Leia and probably remembering his human days with Padme.

 

I'm intrigued by the wedding image, but I'm not sure how it's functioning -- Vader as the officiant, sundering the couple rather than wedding them? With his probable memory as a characterization moment as opposed to symbolic of something? Or perhaps it's even a twisted mirror of something that happens between himself and Amidala -- she watches in horror as he goes down into the pit... from which he arises "in perfect hibernation," from which he will be rescued... Hmmm...

I love the title of Return of the Jedi, JE, for just the reason you bring up. It's so adaptable, so multifaceted. That's another great take on it.

 

I just "did" the new thread: nice read! Much of that will have to "mulch" in the back of my head before I can respond.

This occurred to me since I last posted: Padmewan McGregor posted a thread asking what are the implications of the scene where C3PO begins to see on our understanding of the narrative focus of SW. And finally (in the following year) having read Hol's post, I think I may have an answer!!!

To the point: Narrative Perspective: In TPM we get that odd moment where we see out of C3's eyes, and the result is a "framed" room, an "observer's perspective" of Anakin & Padme. We don't get a shot like that in the later three movies. Once again, we are looking more AT these characters in Episode 1 than WITH them as we are in the last three episodes.

 

Hmmm. I wonder about this whole inside/outside thing.

In the OT, we feel free to put ourselves in the place of Luke, Leia, or Han because we know that they are the heroes of the story. (the opening crawl tells us that the Empire is evil) Are we to see these ourselves in these characters, and as such the story is told from their point of view? (mainly Luke's)

In TPM, we should not put ourselves in place of Anakin, because we know he will eventually turn to the Dark Side. Could this be a reason why the story is seen from an outsiders perspective?

Does this outside perspective give the prequels an almose voyeuristic feel? We are watching characters we already know about, with the outcome predetermined.

 

I don't agree -- I think we're absolutely supposed to be with Anakin, all the way into the molten pit. I'll be very disappointed if I get kicked out of his mind before then!

As to the perspective scene, it was very interesting, to me a personalizing of Threepio -- giving him a sentience that literally no other character in the trilogy has had thus far. We literally see through his eyes. Interesting in light of the technology vs. living things motif... Threepio is both. Rather like someone else we've seen...

 

I'm there with Snerd (hi Snerd, nice to meet you) on this one (identifying with the hero). But as I wrote the post to prove my point, I see a chunk of it belongs both here and on the "Empathy Factor" thread. I flipped the coin, and that chunk of this post is going over there.

MacTusken's crown of thorns, decay and our blooming Maul: clap clap clap! Don't forget the tooth decay! It also works nicely as a way of seeing the relationship of the Jedi & the Sith: the sith are the Jedi who are holding the sun from setting--who are resisting moving forward on the life cycle. How appropriate that Yoda's hideaway on Degobah (a place with a strong Sith presence that hides him per some book somewhere) is a SWAMP: a place of things rotting up on the suface and unclean water.

Which brings us to water: Naboo is fluid, like Degobah, but the time spent on Naboo in the clean waters does not seem to be a baptism for the main charactes, unlike the time on Degobah which is. Luke leaves Degobah's swamps significantly different. Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon & Jar Jar do not seem changed by their journey through the core. Interesting that it is in the dirty water (as in the trash compactor that our main character moves forward into self discovery & growth, unlike in clean water which merely another medium through which Qui Gon & Obi Wan move, unchanged. It gives the feeling that spiritual growth happens in the presence of imperfect things (dirty water) and not pleasant things (clean water).

[This message has been edited by Jedi Eowyn (edited 02-05-2000).]

 

In a sort of roundabout way, the talk of water got me thinking of the color blue again. Now I know it has been discussed, but with the ressurgance of the 'red' theme, i think we might be able to delve back into colors.

Interesting facts have been brought up discussing the importance of blue on Coruscant. This obviously represents the office of Chancellor, boss or leader of Coruscant and the Republic for that matter.(blue travel yacht, blue uniform, blue guards) As read in the visual dictionary I think, Palpatine wears a very similar blue to Valorums, hinting at the desire to oust and replace him.

This may be old news, but we know of the physical similarities between the Chancellors guards and the Emperor's later on. Now obviously the latter's are blood red. And as red creeped up in my mind I thought of the Handmaidens as well as the Chancellors guards. Thier designs are very similiar(low 'visor' covering their eyes, and rounded hood, flowing cape). It's as if the Emperors body guards are the perfect 'meld' of the Coruscant Guards and the Naboo Handmaidens.(silly ex:it's almost as if the handmaidens were the way a comic book artist would draw it, then as hollywood makes a movie out of the handmaidens comic, they beef it up, and make it more 'robotic and 90's' hence the updated, 'military handmaidens' in ROTJ. Silly example, I know, but you get my drift, my visual connection) ANy significance there? you got me, but after reading about how Palpatine's apartment was decorated with non-Naboo(ian) items as well as the basic red, showing his growing 'foriegn' interest, it seems as if He goes his own way but still continues to be 1)influenced by Naboo, or 2)using what he needs out of Naboo. The second is obviously true on a grander scale.

Anywho bit of a stretch there.

Light and Dark: very intriguing. Someone posted about the shot of our heroes arriving at Coruscant, flying(evading) the dark side of the planet and landing on the light. Now, don't quote me on this but as we see the landing platform from the Queens ship there is a very distinct shadow crossing the platform. I may be wrong but I believe, the chancellor 'parks on the light side' and is drawn out of his ship, to Palpatine, standing in shadow. Also of note, if the above Shadow thought is correct, there may be something to the fact that the Queens vessel parks on the platform directly near the shadow/light divide. I think it is 'just out of reach' of the light. I may be horribly wrong though.

Another fascinating scene is Maul's apperance at Tatooine. We see Maul ship zoom by camera and head straight for the terminator on a half light Tatooine. That one shot as always seemed to be of great significance(sp). To see Tatooine half in light, half drenched in darkness and in the middle the silhouette of Maul ship(aka Vader's fighter in ANH). It's as if Maul is signaling the Anakin indirectly. Maul is a messenger, foreshadowing anakin's future.

who knows.

 

First of all, hi Eowyn, good to meet you too.


Now, I mentioned earlier in this thread that Coruscant was the only planet we see that isn't fully lit, and now Madine has shown that I was wrong again.
I guess I should have viewed the trailer again before I posted.

Tatooine being seen half in daylight and half in darkness perhaps foreshadows the conversation between Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan when they say that they sense something through the Force. I cannot recall how this feeling was actually phrased, or if the conversation took place before or after Darth Maul showed up, but I believe it was before. (Obviously that doesn't mean jack now does it?)

Madine makes the point that the darkness foretells the darkness in Anakin. While I don't necessarily disagree, I also
believe that the division between daylight and darkness foreshadows a battle to take place. (i.e. the battle between Qui-Gon and Maul)

In ANH, we see darkness and light at Yavin before the Battle of Yavin. While in TPM, there is no battle at Coruscant, we in the audience know that a battle is indeed brewing that the Jedi are not yet aware of.

Is the light and darkness both covering part of a planet a metaphor for a battle between good and evil about to take place there?

[This message has been edited by Herman Snerd (edited 02-07-2000).]

 

On the title of ROJ, I love it too, JG. It must be noted that jedi is the plural form of jedi, and so in Return of the Jedi, we are not only seeing Anakin's return but Luke's as well. Luke is still a very dark jedi until he throws down his lightsabre triumphantly in ROJ. One of my favorite scenes in ESB is when Luke is preparing to leave to face Vader-to go to the dark side, if you will. Upon hearing the admonishments of Yoda and Ben, Luke says, "I'll return. I promise." This 'return' is not only referring to his physical return to Dagobah, but his return to the light side of the force, the 'return of the jedi', if you will.

 

I always kinda thought that Return of the Jedi not only referred to Luke, but also to those Jedi who would come after him. I must admit I hadn't considered the title referring to Anakin too.

 

With the titles in mind, I thought I'd link one of the few threads that I wrote in my hayday that is still in existence:

Forum1/HTML/001942.htmlThe titles can have many strata of significance

Keep in mind that this thread's rhetorical purpose was to counteract the initial backlash to the title "The Phantom Menace," and that it is very, very, very old.

[This message has been edited by clerk (edited 02-08-2000).]

 

one-fan comes in bearing lots of yellow sticky notes

Jedi Eowyn-To a biologist, a swamp, any swamp, is a beautiful thing. Wetlands clean the water that flows through them. Ecological diversity is high in wetlands. Symbiotic relationships are common in wetland.

I didn't notice that Jar-Jar's swamp was cleaner than Dagobah; I didn't see any really clear water until Otoh Gunga.

Obilon-you really ought to visit the Obi-Wan speculation thread and it's associated archive. (hands him silver firefighter's coverall-hint hint hint)

Madine Covering the face is one way to look fiercer, more threatening. No one has to tell us that the Tusken raiders are dangerous-they're all covered up-they look dangerous. Covered faces don't *necessarily* imply a relationship between the handmaidens and the Imperial guards, it's a common way to make people look dangerous. And the covered faces of the handmaidens increase the chance that the impersonation strategy will succeed.

 

Just wanted to elbow my way in and say that I've finished the archived discussions and enjoyed them tremendously--very well reasoned and written, with few unpleasant posts.

Being the mental midget I am, however, I've nothing to add.

 

fumbling with index cards

one-fan: The water that Obi Wan and Qui Gon swim through seem pretty darn pristine to me. They can see the golden globed city quite clearly and in a very unswampy way. That's what I meant by clean. Regarding swamp water being an excellent breeding ground as you said--yes. But pity the life form that falls in and becomes host to new life? Luke nearly eaten by the water snake in the trash chute? the x wing fighter covered with seaweed? The "dirty" water teams with new life, which is a potential threat to the old life. The "dirty" elements are that teaming life. And it's that alternate life which is the threat. The bigger fish issues: eat or be eaten.

Madine & one-fan: red outfits of hand maidens: the emperor may well be doing some sort of gesture politics when he dresses his courtiers like the queen's handmaidens. But this seems like an endless slap against the queen and Naboo: steal their customs without caring for them. Furthermore, in his shift from chancellor to emperor, Palp will need to adopt royal customs, and what is his example for that if not the QUEEN of Naboo?

fiasco--nice to meet you. unlurk as often as you like, and throw things in if you want!

obilon--the dream cave sequence from ESB: yes. that scene is so perfect! Luke taking his lightsabre and fighting Vader is a prediction. Luke cutting Vader's head off and having a nightmare resolution is a warning. And the face in the mask is both Vader's and Luke's: suggesting that the dark side is so enveloping that all people would look the same inside it. Especially a father and son.

Certain roles in tpm so curtail the freedom of the indivdual that the role itself acts like a mask, both binding and concealing, and allowing for deception. Amidala's Queen get-up is part of her masque, but so is the role of queen. She doesn't make that role hers until the final scenes when she reveals she is Padme, and then her decoy is just a decoy, no longer a queen.

fumbles with her notes some more

Oh, Obilon, to do bold and italics, use "[" instead of "<".

thinks she's done

 

Jedi Eowyn and others (for some reason the "review topic" button doesn't work on this browser)- I have always thought that the cave scene where Luke cuts off Vader's head and finds his own face means that the enemy Luke must face and conquer is himself.

 

Rise, my friend.

 

Well, it's been awhile. In the list of masked folks, you forgot Leia as Boussh!

Obilon, one question -- you said something about Obi-Wan stealing Anakin's girlfriend. I'm assuming you mean his wife? I doubt he would think Obi-Wan stole her; she's likely to go into hiding on her own after he falls, and I doubt he would believe her weak-minded enough to just do as Obi-Wan says. He might well see Obi as stealing his son, though, if he has an inkling of Luke's existence. (Unless you're referring to the fan speculation about the love triangle? I don't find that a symbolically likely scenario, and certainly it's thematically unlikely -- Luke would hardly bring him back to the light if seeing him reminded him of some faithless little tramp who'd broken his heart! More likely, it would just make him think, "Oh, yeah... that's what the lightsiders call morality... not for me.")

I don't have a lot to say about the water at this point, though obviously it's going to play a major role in the prequels. It already did in TPM, and some of the leaked stuff about EpII says that they're planning a lot of work around water. What's the signifcance of Amidala being from a planet with a water core? (Obviously, it's not scientific probability. )

So, let's see, elements.

Water, we've been talking about. I think Naboo's water and Coruscant's blue are related in some way, though Coruscant is more "airy."

Fire -- the suns of Tatooine, the probable fiery pit that Anakin falls into, the funeral pyres. Other examples?

Earth -- the earthy colors of Tatooine, the japor snippet, the rebels' camouflage on Endor, the mud and moss of Dagobah

Air -- the Skywalker name, the spires of Corscant and (even more) Bespin, the wind that whips around Vader. And, negatively, all the breathing issues we discussed in the previous thread.

So, how are the elements used?

 

Japanese philosophy uses five elements, separating out metal from wood, inorganic from organic. (A highly reflective Coruscant from a highly reflective Tatooine? The living and organic Dagobah and Endor from the extreme "dead" -- in the sense of never having been alive -- Death Star?)

Wicca adds spirit to the traditional four, which accomplishes the same distinction in a slightly different way.

 

Hello, after much reading im glad i finally have something to contribute...

Refering to the use of Elements.
A small, obvious observation....Anakin is from a desert planet, Amidala from one with a water core. Perhaps this has something to do with illustrating how different from each other they really are...

Elements & Nature & the Force

Im certain that some of this has been pointed out before, but hopefully I can add a little.

As we all know, Rebel bases are all surrounded by nature, they are at one with nature and live in harmony with the elements. This of course shows that a connection with the elements seems to imply a connection with the Force...or at least the inherent goodness of the Force. Examples are: the Rebel Base at Yavin, Yoda and his Swamp House, Rebel Base on Hoth, Luke and his Uncle's moisture farm, Obi Wan living at the edge of the Dune Sea, Ewoks tree houses on Endor, Gungans living underwater, and Queen Amidala's palace and city located atop the waterfall (although this has a much more Greek interpretation than the others). Even things like the ruins of giant statues on the Nabooian battle fields are symbolic (Ozymandis anyone? thats probably been pointed out already...). These statues hint at a past (failed) civilization that lived out of harmony with the elements and were thus reclaimed by them (wonderful, my next post will be titled "Naboo was the ancient home of all Sith: I HAVE PROOF!!!" ) The 'goodness' of the character(s) is symbolically represented by how harmoniously they live with their environment.

I know this has been pointed out, but contrast the Jedi temple and Corsucant as a whole with all the Rebel buildings in the OT.

At first the Empire seems just as devoid of a relationship with nature as the Jedi Temple in TPM. However, this is not entirely true as the Empire does have a relationship with nature, they make perversions of it. The Death Star with its perfect spherical shape is mistaken for a small moon. The perversion becomes more obvious when we find out that it kills planets rather than orbit in harmony with them. Likewise, AT-ATs and AT-STs resemble natural creatures but their proportions are all wrong, grossly distorted to strike horror in minds of the enemy. And it is my opinion that we will certainly see clonning play a role as a perversion of nature.

If ive pointed out anything that has already been stated, please tell me. But hopefully ive added a little to the topic.

The rhyme of the poet
Modulates the king's affairs;
Balance-loving Nature
Made all things in pairs....

Emerson

BH

[This message has been edited by BlackHorse (edited 02-19-2000).]

[This message has been edited by BlackHorse (edited 02-19-2000).]

 

Perhaps this has something to do with illustrating how different from each other they really are...

It seems more to me to suggest that they are one another's complements, the natural yin and yang, water and fire, etc etc. Two halves of the same whole, incomplete without each other. For the other elements of the Western four, Ani's family is the air (Skywalker), while Amidala's are earth (they are farmers).

Another Ozymandias fan! Yay! Yes, I thought of that poem in the Gungan sacred place, too.

A great observation of the Empire and nature, Blackhorse. The perverse forms they use, even the noting of said forms by other characters. I need to think awhile on that. The Rebel vehicles tend to look like vehicles. The other vehicle we've seen so far that looks like a distorted animal is the bongo from Otoh Gunga.

(Sort of on the subject, given the Gungan technology and the info that a lot of Episode II is supposed to be near the water, and that it's a love story... who would be surprised to see a submarine that resembles a shell tossed up onto shore, for Amidala to arise from like Aphrodite? Just a thought...)

"The whole universe is made of four kinds of stuff, little Peggy, and each one wants to have its own way. Fire makes things hot and bright and uses them up. Air makes things cool and sneaks in everywhere. Earth makes things sold and sturdy, so they'll last. But water, it tears things down, it falls from the sky and carries off everything it can, carries it off and down to the sea. If the water had its way, the whole world would be smooth, just a big ocean with nothing out of the water's reach. All dead and smooth..." -- Orson Scott Card, Seventh Son

 

who would be surprised to see a submarine that resembles a shell tossed up onto shore, for Amidala to arise from like Aphrodite? Just a thought...
Please, no ...

 

Oh, I didn't say it wouldn't be corny, just that I wouldn't be surprised. If something like that was done, it could be done tastefully -- half the stuff that's in the movies you don't notice until you've watched them far too many times. But I could see the scene fairly easily, toward the beginning, with Obi and Ani visiting Naboo for the first time -- she is supposed meet them, but a meeting with Boss Nass has gone too long. They wait at the edge of the water. A slightly different type of bongo pops up, the top lifts, and out she comes, no fuss. Just an allusion, no attention drawn to it.

Or she could do the "Hercules: the Legendary Journeys" thing, and come in surfing on a half shell while playing Beach Boys music...


(For those who maybe didn't know the "Ozymandias" reference earlier -- I know I actually came by the thing by accident and never read it in school -- I went and found the text online:

I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed:
And on the pedestal these words appear:
'My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that collosal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.

- PB Shelley 1789-1822

[This message has been edited by JediGaladriel (edited 02-19-2000).]

 

I say that Obi Wan Kenobi steals Anakin's girlfriend (meaning wife) for three reasons. One is pure speculation, the other is that Rick McCallum said himself that there is a reason Amidala is right in-between Obi and Anakin's ages and the third is that only a love betrayed could force Anakin to the dark side. (The third is purely poetic.)


Oh, you did mean the love triangle. This isn't the place to debate that -- it's not really a symbol of the sort we're discussing, and there are a hundred threads on it already, most of which with many comments from yrs truly -- suffice it to say that I find it highly implausible, and just not a very believable cause for the effect we got. McCallum has said a lot -- a lot of which was before the TPM script was finished -- that seems unlikely. After all, GL still hasn't finished EpII... I doubt he had the kinks worked out when McCallum made his comment. All references to a relationship between Amidala and Obi-Wan were deliberately removed from TPM, so I'd guess the possibility of it went with them.

As for the desert/water symbols. I see it. But we forget that in ANH Luke is entralled by the image of Princess Leia. (Another girl from a pristine planet.) Just as his father was by Amidala so was Luke by his sister. Both the water symbols lead the Jedi out of the ashes of a dead planet.

But which is the dead planet? Tatooine seems the obvious candidate... yet things thrive there. Alderaan is destroyed, and Naboo ends up being the root of the Empire (not to mention those spooky statues). I'm not sure how these symbols all interact, especially when you throw in Dagobah for good measure. Maybe it starts to get into the issue of balance, which Anakin is meant to bring?

Doesn't vader himself represent the embodiment of the Empire's philosophy. Distorting nature through technology.

Interesting -- I like this a lot -- Palpatine takes a real human being and turns him into a machine-run mockery of life. A very good interpretation.


What about Darth Siduous' relience on his gadgets, especially his two sided sabre. And Siduous and Neimodian's relience on technology in the battle droids. It seems that the good side of the force is based in nature and the dark is based on technology.

I don't know if that's entirely true -- the Jedi use lightsabers, the Rebels have the Falcon and the fleet, the princess is pretty darn reliant on a good blaster. I think it's that the balance is different -- in the Empire, people are being made more like machines; the galaxy is being remade into the image of a machine. In the Alliance, the machines become more life-like, with minds of their own (3P0 complaining about the Falcon's vocabulary, for instance), and the whole galaxy -- technology included -- is made more... well, human, for lack of a better word, but you all know what I mean.