Random Symbols (Ivory Tower: Episode 2)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by JediGaladriel, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. Emuboy Jedi Grand Master

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    I'll be a little off subject and a little speculative, so forgive me...

    Blindness. I really like it. Did anybody ever see the G.I. Joe movie? One of the main godd-guys is blinded and severely humbled by it. What if another prequel character was blinded? You could blind Amidala, and make her weak (or prove her strength). You could blind Anakin shortly before he turns into Vader, and scare a lot of people. You could blind Jar Jar and make him really tragic. Well, that is too much speculation, I guess.

  2. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    C-3P0's fall is having to serve Jabba, being knocked over, having green stuff splattered on him, and his eye being taken out.

    Hey, Blackhorse, you got both of them in the same place (the fall and the blindness)! And, come to think of it (duh, Gala, this one just about jumps out and punches in the nose when you're looking for it), the first time we see Threepio in the prequels -- his earliest appearance in the saga -- he can't see properly because Anakin has to put his eye in. Is it the same eye that Salacious Crumb pulls out? He also loses his eyesight on Bespin ("Well, something's not right, because now I can't see..."). Do these repeated blindings of Threepio interact in any way with his status as Anakin's creation?

    I think you're right about everyone being fallen in Jabba's place -- heaven knows all the deadly sins are lying around there -- but, to go back to the chasm discussion, it seems that in this universe, the people who ultimately triumph are those who fall all the way through the chasm and come out the other side. Will we, I wonder, see Anakin fall all the way through the chasm as a foreshadowing during the course of the prequels?

    Actually, Emuboy, you might not be far off with that guess about someone being blinded in the prequels; now that you've said it, it almost feels ordained. Amidala, the symbol of wisdom and purity? Obi-Wan seems an even more likely candidate, perhaps a blindness of a similar duration to Han's. Or maybe it is Anakin, and it serves the dual function of symbol and plot point -- his blindness (to his surroundings and to the nature of the deal he's made) being the cause of his fall, both literally and figuratively. Or perhaps, in a different vein, his salvation -- his deliberate blindness to Amidala's actions regarding her pregnancy and the birth of the children?
  3. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    We seem to have a slight thread hiccup here... let's see if this fixes it.
  4. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    I just got the CT soundtrack (the original version, with the Yub Nub song!), and I was wondering if anyone is up for talking auditory symbolism... Is the use of violins consistent? Any reason for associating woodwinds (particularly flutes) with Leia, at least in the later movies? Minor modality is used on both sides of the issue (the Imperial March is in a minor key, but so is Luke's theme), so it's not just a good/evil thing -- is there any regular use of modality?

    Oh, one off-the-cuff thing, musically, thinking of sunsets and getting to think of the sunset in ANH... it's the same music, with the same crescendo point, in the ANH sunset scene, and Vader's funeral pyre scene, both with Luke, standing alone... the beginning and end of the journey?

    [This message has been edited by JediGaladriel (edited 03-02-2000).]
  5. scum&villainy Jedi Master

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    On the subject of musical symbolism I wonder if anyone can help me - I can't distinguish between Ben's theme and the Force theme; they both seem to be the same phrase - the stirring music that accompanies the Binary Sunset/Luke's looking to the horizon scene in ANH. Help me Music lovers - oyu're my only hope.

    Does Ben's theme, or a alternate/twisted version of this feature on TPM soundtrack? Will we hear a full 'blazing glory' march version of this in the prequels?

    Jedi Galadriel - the love triangle quote you pulled on me was either taken out of context or extremely poorly written by me, and I'll have to reply.
    The point I was making was that to make Anakin's fall somebody else's fault; to make him a victim of other's wrong doing surely makes his fall less meaningful. To be able to blame his fall on his wife and his mentor's affair would remove the intent of from his turn. He must choose the Darkside; he must choose greed; he must choose ti walk down that road. To have people he loves spurn and betray him would make him a more pathetic figure and would turn victimise Vader. Although these points would work quite well and spice up the story, removing the greed/lust for power/pride element from Darth Vader diminishes his power; which in turn diminishes his evilness, his blackness, thus diminishing his reversal and resurrection.
  6. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    Nice interpretation on the "blinding" of the twins -- there certainly is a strong correlation between masks and blindness, isn't there?

    I think there is certainly something that makes Obi-Wan feel Anakin is no longer Anakin, but there seems to be nothing to indicate that Anakin feels that about Kenobi. He feels quite confident predicting the man's behavior ("Escape is not his plan") which suggests strongly that he feels this is the same man he always knew. (How about the opposite variation on the triangle for those who like the idea of a triangle: Amidala has been with Obi-Wan, but Guinevere-like, falls for the dashing young knight Anakin, who steals her away in a bloody purge that no one thought he could conduct? I don't like it, but it makes a smidgen more plot sense, though of course, again, it would taint the children, which we can't really do. Even more sensible, to use Lancelot imagery, would be if she were tried by the Republic -- to which she is "married" -- for that little "No confidence" thing and Anakin broke every law and rule in the book rescuing her. Or, then again, there's a totally different triangle, with Anakin at the apex and Obi-Wan and Amidala fighting over him; not necessarily in a slashy way, but certainly a loyalty triangle could be set up like that, and it would fit more with the theme of the prequels as Anakin's choices.) The setup for the split between Obi-Wan and Anakin, though, is already set up aroud Shmi and the slave situation. There's ample reason there, and it already is in existence, which fits with what's been said about all the seeds already having been planted. Lucas might be able to make something else believable -- I trust the man implicitly, and if he decides to throw in a triangle on top of everything else, then there's a reason for it -- but right now, the set up we have doesn't support it, and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to put in something so extraneous when we already have a simple, effective setup in front of us.

    [This message has been edited by JediGaladriel (edited 03-02-2000).]
  7. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    What the heck does age have to do with anything? We know she marries Anakin, so clearly she loves him (I'm with Natalie Portman: "I think it's cool that they're actually doing the older girl-younger guy thing on film!"), and all the setup of an "attraction" to Obi-Wan was removed entirely -- she didn't even look at him during the festival scene, or glance at him on board the ship. I could see her developing a crush on Qui-Gon (a glance here and there, maybe), but Obi-Wan? Not even a little bit of interaction to suggest it.

    I think we all agree that it has to be Anakin's choice that causes all of this, and blindness is a powerful symbol of choice (look at blind justice!). The difference of opinion seems to be in whether or not we in the audience should feel that we would make the same choice in the same situation -- I definitely feel that we should, that the choice should be made based on motives that every person sitting in the theater comprehends and agrees with... but a choice that they all still know is wrong. We should come out of it knowing what it feels like to make that choice. Choosing out of some desire to do evil would externalize it, because most people see themselves as wanting to do good, so they could say, "Oh, if I'd been there, that wouldn't have been a temptation; I'd always choose right." Choosing over being jilted would produce something of a pity reaction -- "The poor thing... but come on, I've been jilted a hundred times, and it never made me think it was okay to crush someone's windpipe." It would make him pathetic, not sympathetic, and again, that would externalize it. But choosing over the murder of his mother, possibly right in front of him? Even the littlest kid in the audience would get that (and SW is made with kids in mind).

    The other symbolic problem, of course, is that any taint on the relationship between Anakin and Amidala would, like the issue of illegitimacy, taint the twins. The children are not symoblically separate from the union.
  8. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    Ah... I think that may be a primary difference between the trianglists and the anti-trianglists -- I see Obi-Wan as essentially on the same level as Han: really important, going through his own journey... but not anywhere near the center of the story. I see the story as being about the Skywalker family -- the two people it's about are Anakin and Luke in the later trilogy, Anakin and Amidala in the earlier one. It's all about their fate; Obi-Wan's importance is based entirely in how he deals with that fate, and the children. In the Mentor role, Obi-Wan is separate from Anakin's Journey, while Amidala is at the very heart of it. I think he'll be a more active Mentor in the prequels than he was in the Classic, but that is still his function. He shouldn't overstep it. I always figured Vader's feelings toward Ben in the Classic were ambivalent -- he'd let him live all those years, he was sorry that it had come to a point where they had to fight, and he assumed that Kenobi had trained his son. But at the same time, Kenobi had failed him as a Master, so it pleased him to see that it wasn't the student who had failed... clearly, it was the Master, and now his failure was complete. It definitely seemed like a Master/Apprentice issue, not a love life issue. And if there'd been a triangle -- even a percieved one -- wouldn't the line have been more like, "Sister? So, you have a sister! Who'd that little tramp bed down with after me?"
  9. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    I just figure that Vader sensed "sister," and guessed "twin" because he knew perfectly well that there wasn't another man. If he'd suspected there was, he wouldn't have made that assumption immediately.

    I don't mean to sound like I think Obi-Wan is insignificant. He's an interesting old bird in the old trilogy, and may well have a Journey in the new one -- the Clasic was Luke's Journey, the full saga is Anakin's, and the prequels will probably be Obi-Wan's (though I harbor a vague hope it will be Amidala's instead; it would be very nice to see a Heroine's Journey for once! But that's just a girl thing, probably; I always resented the ball getting dropped with Leia.) Ben's function in the Classic is as an avatar of good Anakin, but I don't think that suggests that he is, um, serving in Anakin's place in other ways.

    However, it does end up hinging on the interpretation of Vader, doesn't it? I was always absolutely convinced -- even at the age of seven -- that Vader had always known Obi-Wan was alive, that he was sorry to kill him, and a little sad and jealous that Obi-Wan trained Luke better than he trained him. It's interesting... I never even questioned that interpretation until I heard the uproar about how Anakin was suddenly "out of character" in TPM, and was confused, because he was acting pretty much like I figured he would based on my interpretation of Vader. Now, I've questioned it. And come right back to my original position. I think we're going to learn that Vader made a lot of compromises to protect the people he loved as Anakin... including Obi-Wan. And I think he kept Obi-Wan's survival a secret, but of course if Kenobi is fool enough to walk right into the Death Star, he can't very well let him go; it's one thing to ignore him when he's inactive, and another to ignore him when he's directly interfering in Imperial affairs. I also think he knew about Luke and chose to leave him in peace (though when he suddenly showed up at the Death Star, those twenty years or so came crashing in pretty fast!), though that's not particularly important to my view of him.

    BTW, I think we are going to get an inter-movie adult book -- Rogue Planet, I think it's going to be called. (Frankly, I wish they'd do an adult version of the JA books -- those are the first time I've been interested in Obi-Wan -- though I still like Qui-Gon better -- and I just eat them up; alas, they're not very nourishing. Then again, I haven't noticed a tendency for the adult EU books to be especially nourishing either.)

    [This message has been edited by JediGaladriel (edited 03-02-2000).]
  10. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    Grrrr. Another thread hiccup.
  11. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    Well, I'll just keep making short posts, in the hope of fixing the thread.

    If you want to get into the novelizations, they say flat out that Vader doesn't hate Ben (Return of the Jedi, page number varies by edition, the scene where Luke comes to him on Endor, after Luke tells him not to hate Ben or blame him for his fall: "But Vader hated no one, only lusted too blindly"). Honestly, though, I don't take the novelizations overly seriously, so that's not proof of anything.
  12. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    I didn't see it with Ben, but I agree about Windu. Like I said, I don't take the novelizations too seriously, even though Lucas says they're canon. It can be fairly easily justified, though -- he hated early in his career, and that was part of his turn, but by the time Luke has come to him, he is weary and has no more hate left.

    I always believed that Obi-Wan believed Anakin knew nothing about Luke, but that he was wrong about that. I mean, whatever else we're dealing with about Ben, we're definitely dealing with the literary device of an extremely unreliable narrator. Which certainly leaves Lucas free to do quite a lot in the prequels. Now that I think about it, though, it's possible that Yoda knew Anakin was aware of Luke... maybe that explains the otherwise inexplible line "Unexpected this is... " Hello? Anakin telling the truth to his son about the family? Anyone could predict that, without the help of the Force... but if Yoda had some reason to believe that Vader would deliberately not tell Luke, it would be different. And the only way to make that assumption would be if he knew, and had made some comment to the effect of never telling him... Sorry, tangent.

    Back to the music, I also can't tell the difference between Ben's theme and the Force theme -- I didn't know until I bought this boxed set with commentary that it was Ben's theme during the binary sunset, which makes mincemeat of my argument about the funeral pyre, because that is apparently the Force theme. Any musicians out there with an insight?

  13. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

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    Oct 31, 1999
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    Okay, I just had a stray thought rush through my mind and I have no idea where it came from, but let's see where it goes.

    Obi-Wan's home in ANH (non SE) and Yoda's home in ESB are both simple, rounded huts. The rounded huts being very natural, organic designs. How does that contrast with the Jedi Temple from TPM?

    Although the Jedi dress simply, there home on Coruscant is anything but humble. They live almost as Olympian Gods on high. From their lofty vantage point, they look over the capital world of the Republic.

    The Jedi Temple is a large metallic structure, with spires reaching for heaven itself. From here, the Jedi make their decisions that will affect the whole galaxy.

    Back to the OT. Our only remaining Jedi are living in earthen huts. Kenobi on Tatooine, and Yoda on Dagobah. (Also our future Jedi, Luke, comes from the same type of home)Does this change in habitat signify only a fall from power and prestige, or does it in fact symbolize a fall from grace? Does the nature of the Jedi Temple infer a loss of contact from what is natural?

    Come to think of it, Anakin was raised in an earthen structure as well. In his Darth Vader incarnation, he was surrounded by metallic structures (Star Destroyers, Death Star, etc.). The voyage from earthen homes to metallic structures seems to intimate a fall from what is good and right. Yoda and Kenobi's OT homes imply a re-connection to the natural life force of the galaxy.

    I'm sure there are other examples of this, but I'm not thinking of them now.

  14. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    I like it, Herman.

    I'll further note that the only two planets we ever see Vader on are Hoth and Bespin -- Bespin is gas giant, and the city is an entirely artificial creation; the corridors of the Hoth base are so sterile that they might as well be metal (interesting setting for the Rebels, in this context... perhaps part of the theme of the Imperial invasion?).

    The move to the earth-y homes is an interesting one, compared to the Tower of Babel they're in now ( ). Plotwise, of course it's a result of the Fall, but symbolically, is it the beginning of a new era, rather than the decline of the old?
  15. scum&villainy Jedi Master

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    I agree Herman. It didn't really add up - the way Yoda promotes priest-like humility as the Jedi way in ESB versus the massive grandeur of Coruscant.
    The Temple must be indicative of the gradual corruption of the galaxy, moving away from the Order's humble ethos and origins to this self-congratulatory monstrosity. In this way, the council members are surely cursed; bound by their own complacency to falter; Yoda excepted.

    Which poses the question: if symbolically the Republic is always destined to self-implode, is Palpatine particularly evil, or is he just an opportunist?

    It seems to me we need to see Palpatine's darkside to prevent him seeming like a necessary cog in the wheel of change.
  16. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    (Before I get called on it, of course we see Vader planet-side one other time, though to be nitpicky, it's a moon. He shows up on Endor... still in an Imperial structure, but we can actually see nature and Vader at the same time for second. But that's part of what makes that scene effective, isn't it?)

    Good point about Palpatine -- is the person who is the final cause of the demise of a wretched system less evil because "it would have happened anyway?" I don't think so -- if I'm lying in a hospital bed, dying, I would hope that the person who came in and stabbed me to death would still be called a murderer! But symbolically, is Palpatine a Lucifer figure, or a Loki? (Hmmm, finding the weak spot of beloved Balder and using it to bring about the Day of Doom... but in the end, Balder will be resurrected and the new world begin... Maybe not so far off-base... Of course, Balder just died -- he didn't become Loki's lieutenant.)

  17. Shar Kida Jedi Master

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    Ol'val.

    Ah, but is it truly "self-imploding," or has it but tasted of the food of the gods unprepared? (A tiny tie-in to the second part of ohm mani padme hum: The Lotus Incarnate.)

    In the English literary tradition the lotus has a strong association with the mysterious East, and most specifically with drugs and induced divine lethargy (and thus with the divine dreaming soma of the Vedas, the food of the gods brought to man in Huxley's Brave New World). A Western core of this tradition may be found in the lotophagi of Homer's Odyssey:
    "I was driven thence by foul winds for a space of nine days upon the sea, but on the tenth day we reached the land of the Lotus-eaters, who live on a food that comes from a kind of flower. Here we landed to take in fresh water, and our crews got their mid-day meal on the shore near the ships. When they had eaten and drunk I sent two of my company to see what manner of men the people of the place might be, and they had a third man under them. They started at once, and went about among the Lotus-eaters, who did them no hurt, but gave them to eat of the lotus, which was so delicious that those who ate of it left off caring about home, and did not even want to go back and say what had happened to them, but were for staying and munching lotus {77} with the Lotus-eaters without thinking further of their return; nevertheless, though they wept bitterly I forced them back to the ships and made them fast under the benches. Then I told the rest to go on board at once, lest any of them should taste of the lotus and leave off wanting to get home, so they took their places and smote the grey sea with their oars.
    - Book IX
    Man cannot partake of the food of the gods and live as a growing, evolving man. To taste of the divine soma is to partake of its nature, to step into a endless, dreaming now which banishes all change.

    In East Indian tradition (including Hinduist, Buddhist, and Jainist branches) the lotus has always been the fairest flower, entering into Indian art and architecture both as a decorative element and as the incarnate beauty to which the later Sanskrit poets compare the appearance of heroines. It is named as early as the Rigveda, while in the Atharvaveda it becomes the basis of comparison with the human heart, one of the origins of its later association with compassion and wisdom. Even the idea of monetary wealth seems to be linked in with this divine core of compassion and wisdom: the Mahabharata describes lake Nalini and river Mandakini, the abode of Kubera (god of wealth), as covered with golden lotuses.

    The lotus also has powerful associations with creation and with the early Hindu creator-figure Prajapati. The Taittiriya Aranyaka relates that in the beginning, when the universe was still fluid (the primordial waters of chaos), Prajapati came into being on a lotus-leaf, which the Panchavimsa Brahmana tells is "born of the light of the Constellations." The Taittiriya Brahmana tells how Prajapati, desiring to evolve the universe, saw a lotus-leaf (puskara-parna) standing erect out of the water. Thinking that it must rest on something, he dived in the form of a boar, and, finding the earth below, broke off a fragment, rose with it to the surface, and spread it out on the leaf. A later creation variant in the Mahabharata tells how Narayana (later Brahma abja-yoni: "lotus born") springs from the lotus that grew out of Vishnu's navel (hence padma-nabha: "lotus-navelled"), while Vishnu lay absorbed in meditation. Vishnu's wife Lakshmi (Sri; padma: "lotus-hued," also "garlanded by lotuses," who becomes the Buddhist Tara, symbol of compassion; Shmi?), goddess of fortune and beauty, was born of a lotus that grew from Vishnu's forehead.

    (These forehead and navel lotuses relate to the seven chakra lotuses familiar to practitioners of prana yoga, tao (tai-chi chuan), and certain branches of Buddhist meditation, but perhaps most familiar in their incarnation in the healing art of qi gong (somewhat transcribed as "therapeutic touch"). The chakras (or "energy centres") are to be opene
  18. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    Originally posted by Shar Kida:
    Ol'val.

    Ah, but is it truly "self-imploding," or has it but tasted of the food of the gods unprepared? (A tiny tie-in to the second part of ohm mani padme hum: The Lotus Incarnate.)

    Interesting, and certainly it ties in with all the images of towers and pride we've been discussing. I'm thinking, now that we've revisited the Greeks with the Lotus-eaters (how could I have forgotten them?), about Icarus and Daedulus, in regards to Ani as a pilot, going too close to the sun... we have a lot of these images floating around, of people reaching too high, being unprepared for what is there.

    Man cannot partake of the food of the gods and live as a growing, evolving man. To taste of the divine soma is to partake of its nature, to step into a endless, dreaming now which banishes all change.

    Given that we are dealing with Lucas here, it occurs to me that, despite his Eastern sympathies, his stories thus far have been strongly Western in this aspect -- what you just wrote is very, very close to what the young Indian boy says in Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, before being forced to drink the blood of the Kali-ma, and certainly "waking up" is a major theme in the escape there.

    It might also be noted that this springing from a lotus, emblem of divine purity, represents a type of "virgin birth," whereby the god/dess springs complete from the pure lotus (compassion, wisdom), unsullied by earthly contamination: not unlike the lotus itself, which appears to spring not from the earth but from the surface of the water (and which is always pure and unsullied, no matter how impure may be the water of the lake).

    This is interesting not just in light of Anakin's birth, but in our discussion of the earth and water images used -- Padme certainly emerges from a water planet. What are the other connotations of the deep here? Is there something to explain Palpatine's similar origins and opposite outcome?


    Not surprisingly for a symbol of divine (re)birth and purity, the lotus-flower, which opens when the sun rises and closes at sunset and is also large and multi-rayed, also has strong associations with the sun. It becomes the residence of the sun during its nocturnal passage through the underworld, and so takes on the daily resurrection properties.

    Important, given Anakin's role as "the Son of the Suns" -- and, in a sense, Padme (either as herself, symbolically holding his soul, or as the mother of the twins) holds the sun during his journey in the underworld.

    For those who haven't seen a lotus (or aren't sure -- I wasn't), here's a picture of one:

    http://members.aol.com/fernwithy/lotus.jpg
  19. No blasters! Force Ghost

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    Uppers...I want to get Jedi Whatshisname off the front page...
  20. No blasters! Force Ghost

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    Uppers...I want to get Jedi Whatshisname off the front page...
  21. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

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    Okay, now I have the sun and moon on the brain. Traditionally enough, both the men (Anakin and Luke) are solar type heroes, while both the women (do I need to specify Leia and Amidala? -- it sometimes seems that SW has something in common with the Buddhist paradise Shar Kida mentioned...) are lunar heroines. Fair enough, I guess.

    But what is the difference in mythology between Luke as a solar hero and Anakin in the same role? Anakin is the sun at its most capricious, burning and scorching, while Luke is the light-giver -- Apollo. Which brings us to the twins...

    Apollo's twin, of course, is Artemis, goddess of the hunt, also associated with the moon (in previous incarnations that apparently confused the Greeks, Helios and Selene -- Anakin and Amidala? -- played these roles). And -- I looked this up because of an AU fic I'm working on -- in certain circumstances, she became a terrible goddess of the lower world, of the "dark of the moon" -- a poet that Hamilton doesn't identify writes of her as "Hecate of hell/Mighty to shatter every stubborn thing."

    There's a reason for all of this pointless rambling, and that's that I'm not sure what kind of fish I've netted here. Anakin is presented clearly as a solar hero... and yet, this transformation of the moon goddess most closely resembles what happens as Vader. We see Amidala presented as a lunar heroine so far... right down to the shapeshifting... but in the end it is Anakin who dons the mask, and takes the role she plays in TPM. Will they, somehow, switch roles? With Anakin slipping into the cyclic lunar role, and Amidala blazing into the solar one?

    Anyway, I don't know if this fish is worth playing with for a little while or not. Do folks think I should toss it back in?
  22. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

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    Oct 31, 1999
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    JediGaladriel, good catch on Vader landing on Endor. This goes further to demonstrate the point about the earth home vs. the metallic home.

    We see Vader descending from space aboard a shuttle. Space of course being a very sterile environment. Luke is coming from the forest (itself a living environment) as a captive aboard an AT-AT Walker.

    The two meet on a metallic walkway, surrounded by the forest. It's as if the two are meeting on neutral ground. Then Luke is taken from the forest and faces the ultimate darkness aboard the second Death Star. (the queen mother of all anti-organic homes)


    I was interested about the idea of death and rebirth. The first thing that popped to mind was the legend of the Phoenix, rising from its own ashes. Was it necessary for the Jedi to be destroyed so they could be reborn in a new form?

    Next, I moved on to a more Darwinian idea. Any organism that fails to evolve, will stagnate and die. The Jedi had been the guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand generations. Had they become stagnant?

    While thinking about this whole death/rebirth thing, I suddenly remembered some nature show I had seen a few years ago. In this show, they showed how the Park Service actually set prairie fires. The purpose of these fires was to stimulate new growth and allow more variety. As the tall prairie grasses grew, they choked out any other plants seeking to grow. Taken in this light, Palpatine can be seen as a necessary tool for the rebirth of the new Jedi. A new order with the same roots as the old order, but allowed to flourish in new ways.

    (I can't believe I used a PBS show to back up a discussion about the symbology of Star Wars)
  23. Lowly Baron Fel Jedi Knight

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    Oct 8, 1999
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    Hello

    Well Ani/Vader becoming a moon role is that he brings the end to the Jedi and Amidala bringing about the new hope/ new dawn of the next generation. An interresting thought is what can we speculate upon why the suddenes of the change
  24. No blasters! Force Ghost

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  25. No blasters! Force Ghost

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