Random Symbols (Ivory Tower: Episode 2)

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by JediGaladriel, Jan 26, 2000.

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  1. ThereIsNoSpoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 2
  2. MacTusken Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 1999
    star 1
    "Next, I moved on to a more Darwinian idea. Any organism that fails to evolve, will stagnate and die. The Jedi had been the guardians of peace and justice for over a thousand generations. Had they become stagnant?"

    Its interesting how conservative the SW universe is -highly resistant to change in all quarters. for an order to exist in a similar shape for 10 000 years is simply unthinkable. How could they not be stagnant? The conservatism, the force of will needed to maintain that status quo would be incredible. No wonder the Jedi Temple is closeted away from the rest of the Coruscant scrapers, or that the shadows lie so long in the council chambers.

    but there are plenty of signs that the order is on its last legs, surviving as a result of props and buttresses. Yoda's Gimer stick is an obvious prop, the consumately orthodox Jedi hobbling along. The only Jedi who are remotely active in TPM are Qui Gon and Obi Wan. The rest are always seated, silent, lurking in the background, silent. The dynamsism of Qui Gon and kenobi seems a world away from them. Possibly because it is.
  3. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 6
    Speaking of dynamic contrasts MacTusken, how about the view from the Jedi Tower? As the Jedi sit in contemplation of events, we wee the hustle and bustle of the air traffic of Coruscant. As the Jedi Council sits in their tower, the world is literally passing them by.

    Similarly we see Queen Amidala looking out the window at the same traffic, but she is inspired to action. As a result of her action, she regains control of her planet.

    [This message has been edited by Herman Snerd (edited 03-21-2000).]
  4. ThereIsNoSpoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 2
    Ahhh, I'm liking this better. More Jedi Temple/Coruscant imagery. Up.
  5. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 6
    Another thought, when the Council is in session, they sit with their backs turned to the outside world. Are they too concerned with looking inward to notice what is going on around them?
  6. ThereIsNoSpoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 2
    Up. Well, shoot, I can't think of any Jedi Tower stuff that hasn't been discussed yet. We talked about it resembling the Emp's DSII tower, and about the Jedi with their backs to the sunset, right?
  7. ThereIsNoSpoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 2
  8. ThereIsNoSpoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 2
  9. BlackHorse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2000
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Han: Boy you said it Chewie. Where did you did up that old fossil?
    MIKE: "Badlands Montana."

    I think we are going to have to wait until TPM is out on video before anything of real substance can be added, at least I know I am....

    Not too much longer though!
    BH
  10. quincy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    A comment on the imagery of sunsets.

    Certainly, sunsets are critical in terms of mythology, and in this great modern myth. And it's no accident that George Lucas, who spent a great deal of time as Joeseph Cromwell's understudy, named his main character the "Son of Suns" in 1997; for that was the year ROTJ:SE was released and we heard the lines "Son of Suns" uttered in the Coruscant celelebration. But one question that many have tried to answer: Did Lucas have the relationship between Vader and Luke mapped out in 1977? To me, there are two lines that support the claim that he did, and a third piece of information, a scene, that PROVES that he did.

    The two lines are, "And that's [that you'll end up like your father] what I'm afraid of" uttered by Uncle Owen; and "[hesitation]He [Vader] betrayed and murdered your father," Spoken by Obi wan. But these two pieces of evidence are very subjective. That hesitation on Obi's part, a difficulty he was having in lying to young Luke, may or may not have actually been there; and Owen could have been referring to the fact that Luke would end up dead, not turned to the dark side.

    But to me the clincher is the sunset scene. It's no coincidence that Luke is watching not one but TWO sunsets in that scene; and the first has reached the horizon and the second is following in that direction. There's no doubt in my mind that the two suns are Luke and Vader. The sun which has reached the edge of the horizon, half of it ends up on the "dark side." HELLO!!! Lucus is screaming "that sun is Vader" to everyone. And the second sun "chasing" the first, as Luke ends up "chasing" his father across the galexy, no doubt is Luke; and that sun may or may not end up on the Dark Side of Tatooine, just as Luke would do. The Sun of the Sun concept was not invented in 1997, but simply made more overt to us, the audience. The idea originated in the early drafts of ANH.... http://www.starwars.com/classic/anh/2000/05/index1a.html http://www.starwars.com/classic/anh/2000/05/index1a.html

    One last piece of evidence that Vader is that Sun. On the general TPM poster, the one released around the globe in theatres everywhere with Anakin at the center with Jar Jar, the droids, Qui Gon, Obi wan, and with Maul's eyes sort of hiding in the background. You will notice that the two tatooine suns are right there in the poster as well. And one is right behind Anakin's head, and the other is sort of near qui gon's head, but sort of off in the distance; as Luke is also off in the distance, to be born in about two decades.

  11. quincy Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    A comment on the imagery of sunsets.

    Certainly, sunsets are critical in terms of mythology, and in this great modern myth. And it's no accident that George Lucas, who spent a great deal of time as Joeseph Cromwell's understudy, named his main character the "Son of Suns" in 1997; for that was the year ROTJ:SE was released and we heard the lines "Son of Suns" uttered in the Coruscant celelebration. But one question that many have tried to answer: Did Lucas have the relationship between Vader and Luke mapped out in 1977? To me, there are two lines that support the claim that he did, and a third piece of information, a scene, that PROVES that he did.

    The two lines are, "And that's [that you'll end up like your father] what I'm afraid of" uttered by Uncle Owen; and "[hesitation]He [Vader] betrayed and murdered your father," Spoken by Obi wan. But these two pieces of evidence are very subjective. That hesitation on Obi's part, a difficulty he was having in lying to young Luke, may or may not have actually been there; and Owen could have been referring to the fact that Luke would end up dead, not turned to the dark side.

    But to me the clincher is the sunset scene. It's no coincidence that Luke is watching not one but TWO sunsets in that scene; and the first has reached the horizon and the second is following in that direction. There's no doubt in my mind that the two suns are Luke and Vader. The sun which has reached the edge of the horizon, half of it ends up on the "dark side." HELLO!!! Lucus is screaming "that sun is Vader" to everyone. And the second sun "chasing" the first, as Luke ends up "chasing" his father across the galexy, no doubt is Luke; and that sun may or may not end up on the Dark Side of Tatooine, just as Luke would do. The Sun of the Sun concept was not invented in 1997, but simply made more overt to us, the audience. The idea originated in the early drafts of ANH.... http://www.starwars.com/classic/anh/2000/05/index1a.html http://www.starwars.com/classic/anh/2000/05/index1a.html

    One last piece of evidence that Vader is that Sun. On the general TPM poster, the one released around the globe in theatres everywhere with Anakin at the center with Jar Jar, the droids, Qui Gon, Obi wan, and with Maul's eyes sort of hiding in the background. You will notice that the two tatooine suns are right there in the poster as well. And one is right behind Anakin's head, and the other is sort of near qui gon's head, but sort of off in the distance; as Luke is also off in the distance, to be born in about two decades.

  12. BlackHorse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2000
    ::eek:pens the heavy wooden door to the long forgotten Ivory Tower::

    Good post quincy, you bring up good points, none of which I will talk about, nor refer to?.

    I was hoping to return to the subject of C3-PO and his incomplete state because I believe we haven't quite touched the bottom of the pool on that subject. While there have been several posts on this thread regarding C3-PO, I don?t think they have all quite congealed enough to define exactly why he is even in TPM, or in the future episodes. C3-PO ( R2 also) does not function in the same manner in the new trilogy as he did in the old. At first this confused me, I fully expected to see him with R2 at the beginning of TPM, reprising their roles as fellow travelers with the audience. Still confused, I fully expected them to be together at the end of TPM so they could function in Ep. II as they did in the OT. But none of this happened, C3-PO's (and R2's) role has changed, but to what?

    "I think C3PO could show to have some very interesting symbolism when the Prequel Trilogy is finished. It's interesting that we see his perspective shot when he is out of his "shell", or, before his body is put on."
    Emuboy

    "I'm really interested in seeing how Threepio works out over the course of this. He lost his innocence in realizing that he was "naked," so he's set up for a journey of discovery. (How sentient is Threepio, really? Just out of curiosity. The realization that one is naked is mythically related to the process of becoming self-aware and responsible for one's actions; witness the upshot of the Eden story.)"
    JediGaladriel

    "I had a thought the other day about character development in SW, namely that every character is introduced as the direct opposite of who the character turns out to be."
    scum&villainy

    "Not to mention that C3PO goes from being a droid who doesn't even know he's not finished to a droid full of important knowledge."
    Emuboy

    C3-PO definitely has a journey of self-discovery ahead of him, and it is him and his journey that will parallel Anakin?s own journey. That is C3-PO?s emerging new function in TPM. I believe this process will become clearer in the next two installments. As Anakin begins to descend into the Dark Side we will begin to see C3-PO?s true personality as the ?fussy professor? begin to emerge. As C3-PO increases in worldly knowledge of languages and customs, Anakin will have glimpsed at what the Dark Side can offer. When C3-PO finally gets his coverings, so will Anakin. Also, there has been some speculation as to whether or not C3-PO gets his mind wiped. Such a scene might mark an important point of transition between the new C3-PO and the old, while acting as parallel for Anakin?s own transition. ?That name no longer has any meaning for me??

    On the other hand, R2 still puzzles me. His role is also different in the new trilogy. R2 doesn?t really act as C3-PO?s counterpoint, there isn?t really enough interaction between the two, and C3-PO?s personality isn?t fully developed. Is R2 also somehow connected with Anakin? They are both good mechanics, and doesn?t R2 fix the Nubian in much the same way Anakin fixes his pod? But that seems a rather weak point.

    Lastly, in an attempt to tie it all in, why does the role of the droids change in the new trilogy? I know some of this, has been commented on in other threads regarding the narration aspects of the movie, and so for that reason maybe this last comment belongs there instead of here. But still, I feel a need to mention it to have a full understanding of the Droids in TPM and future episodes.

    ::Lights a fire in the fireplace ::
    ?Maybe if we warm this place up a bit, we?ll get more visitors.?

    BlackHorse.
  13. ThereIsNoSpoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 2
    Good ideas, Horse! It is interesting to note that the droids are not narrators in any significant way in EI. This puzzled me as well. I like your noting that their adventures do paralell the storyline, especially Anakin's. I still don't like the mindwipe idea, but it would be good for him to notably put his past behind him. I don't see that it is necessary for him to have a mind wipe. Although "technically" 3PO's mind is a 'AA-1 Servobrain' or whatever, it is apparant by the OT that he has developed a personality. Whether or not this personality is developed with contact with Anakin or develops on account of his personal experiences is yet to be seen, but it is conceivable to view 3PO as a part of Anakin, never turned to the dark side; perhaps he can even be viewed as Anakin's avatar in the OT. UP for your thoughts.
  14. Hôl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 6, 1999
    star 2
    And I am just going to revive a very short point I do not remember being explicitly mentioned earlier. (I could be wrong.)

    Much has been said about pits in the previous thread, but I do not think anyone had noted that Kenobi only falls a little way into the pit down which Maul falls completely?
  15. BlackHorse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2000
    I know that there are those on other threads that there are those on other threads that are for or against a droid mindwipe for whatever continuity reasons, but I did not introduce it to help advocate either of those positions; the subject doesn't really interest me. I merely brought it up because I could see where it could possibly be used as a symbol of Threepio's changing role, and could somehow reflect Anakin's transition into Vader. However, it could probably be done without it too.

    ThereIsnoSpoon, you make a good point about Threepio being an Avatar for Anakin in the OT. I hadn't taken it that far, but the new trilogy is supposed to reinterpret the old a little, so it makes sense. I just got through reading a small thread in the TPM forum about the importance of Threepio in the film. One post in particular caught my attention, here is the whole post :
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>baggles
    Jedi Knight posted 04-10-2000 10:05 PM
    C3p0 is brought into the story by Ani and r2 is brought into the story via padme.
    Ani and padme die and the droids wind up with their children
    The symmetry works just fine.

    Helped me clear up R-2's function, he is clearly associated with Amidala just as Threepio is associated with Anakin. Therefore, each droid acts as an Avatar for each parent, respectively....as reinterpreted by the NT.

    BlackHorse.

  16. TheyCallMeMrSith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2000
    star 1
    This thread is absolutely fascinating. i have spent way too much time in TPM forum. clearly, this is where the action is

    forgive me if this is a topic that has been discussed before, but i've been thinking a lot about the opening scenes of TPM and ANH. We all remember the opening scene from a new hope- it's one of the most famous scenes in cinematic history. the opening scene in the TPM, though, has never really occured to me as being very special at all.

    but it is. in the TPM opening, the ship is coming toward the camera, and moving toward the traid federation control ship. it's going down the river into the heart of darkness.

    in ANH, the ship is moving away from the camera, evading the evil it discovered at the end of the river.

    beautiful, no?

    this all reinforces the obvious theme concerning that the prequals are the fall, and the OT is the redemption.
  17. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 6
    Also in ESB the Star Destroyer is moving towards the camera.

    Just as the Empire is actively searching for the Rebels, this shows the Empire in a pro-active role, not fading into the background after their defeat at Yavin.

    As far as the beginning of ROTJ, who knows. We see the ship both coming and going.
  18. BlackHorse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2000
  19. ThereIsNoSpoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 2
    And to the top once more. Ship directions, hmmm...I don't see much here. What direction is the ISD going in Empire again? All I can think of is like what's been said; that when it comes toward, it is going to an evil place, and when it goes from, it is running from evil. Not very scintillating, eh?
    I found the catwalks and chasms portion of the original thread to be the most interesting portion. Now it is brought back the so-called 'reactor pit', and Obi-Wan's descent. I do not remember whether this was discussed, but it never hurts to do it again. I enjoyed the 'morality levels' interpretation of the Duel of the Fates' chasms, and so here goes my interpretation of the final duel. Tell me if you think it's overboard with the symbolism.
    Obi-Wan sees Maul strike down Qui-Gon, and feels enmity towards Maul. When he duels him, he must delve into the dark side for his relatively weak and immature fighting style to hold against Maul's athletisism and superior skills. (Obi-Wan attacks Maul when he is down-but so does Qui-Gon. Is this not considered 'yella' by Jedi?) Obi-Wan halves Maul's weapon-perhaps a reminder that Maul has only one threat now, and should use only one blade, as he did in the desert. (It is interesting to note that Obi-Wan reduces Maul to one blade, and then requires, in effect, two blades to kill Maul.) In using the dark side, Obi-Wan becomes careless and allows himself to become between Maul and the pit. He is punished for his romp into the dark side with defeat-and with a fall into the lower morality that is the pit. It is his remembrance of Qui-Gon that allows him to remain in the interim-and Qui-Gon's 'avatar' (to use the term loosely), his lightsabre, a symbol of the light that was Qui-Gon, is used to pull Obi-Wan back out of the dark-over Maul's head, mind you- and to strike Maul into the pit, all the way, no chance of redemption for such evil.

    Or something like that.
  20. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Hm. I want to address a few archtypes the saga uses symbolicially to indicate that it is a beginning:

    1. Childhood. This is the first and only time Children are seen in the saga, and certainly the most with childlike references. The only thing mirroring it are the Ewoks in ROTJ. Anakin and his friends are children, Jar-Jar and 3p0 seem very wild-eyes and child-like, etc. This is much more so that Luke, who was more naiive that wild-eyed. Sure, there's similarieties, but Anakin leaving his mother and Luke seeing the burned carcasses of the only parents he's ever known just aren't the same thing. TPM is far more innocent.

    2. The distant 'evil': Phantom Meance is the title, and by golly, does it show. The Nemoidians are depicted as inept fools, more used to trading than waging war, and thier droids are about as threatening as melted butter. So it is when one is first a child. Evil is far away, only a hazy, holographic image like Darth Sidious.

    Yet, at the same time we are given the origins of evil, depicted by Darth Maul. The one hard nub of resistance, he is styled not in fascist regalia or in gear reminicient of medieval knights-- he appears in a base form that we can all identify with. For most Chritians out there, this is Lucifer, The devil, complete with red and black, the devil's coulors, and the horns to complete it. And like the devil, we are given little insight to his pain. We merely know that he IS evil, and WILL destroy good at every oppertunity. When one is a child, one often sees evil that way, without worrying as to a why. That, plus Maul's appearance suggests the origin of evil.

    Also, the film gives reference to ancient achitecture and design as opposed to the mass-assembly line feel of the fascist Empire of the original trilogy. In the OT, everything seems to be mostly black and white, with maybe a bit of green. Red and Blue are not prominent colors, though red peeks through every now and then. In TPM we finally get to see blue, but not as much as in the next two movies, I think.

    I'd like to at this point reference a movie that also works in the same WWII references: Ian McKellan's Richard III. In that adaption of Shakespeare's play, the motif is takes from a WWI style of faded green, standing for britain, to the Nazi SS black with appropriate symbolism, to a much lighter green, symbolizing America and thier washing away of the Nazi era. Watch the movie, and you'll see what I mean.

    Likewise, Lucas is using the motifs here, this time symbolizing a much older society, with nods to a sort of Greco/Roman- U.N hybrid. These motifs will eventually move out into the fscist white and black of the Empire.

    I think the best motifs to use in the next two films would be to use a lot of red and blue. The best era to take these cues from would be the French Revolution, which had a lot of that in it. The french were always wearing Red and Blue under the revolution. Plus, the deep passions of the period combined with the high society that lived alongside it make it removed from the Nazi-era, yet the two movements are astonsihingly and frighteningly similar. Their ethos were not the same-- The Nazis tended to be more petty and unconcerned with virtue for the sake of virtue-- but thier methods easily blend into each other.
  21. ThereIsNoSpoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 31, 1999
    star 2
    Bravo, Gonk. Finally, a post in the tradition of the old. I love your childhood comparisons to TPM. It is rumored that red will have a much more prominant role in the upcoming films.
  22. a. block Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 1999
    star 1
    I want to get this thing up again.
    Also, I started a thread in The Phantom Menace that's a lot like this one called "Metaphors and such in TPM." It's essentially the same thing as this but I thought it was on a slightly different path. Anyways, I was hoping for some help and give some help about the meaning of some scenes and why they're there. Hopefully some of you guys who post in this thread will give the other one a look.
  23. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    Good to see this back; sorry I've been away.

    I definitely see R2 as Amidala's avatar, though it's interesting that the two avatars take on the personality aspect of the opposite side of the sacred pair. 3P0 is Anakin's avatar -- I think that is beyond question -- yet his function is the etiquette and protocol that Amidala thrives on in her position. R2, Amidala's sidekick, is a mechanic, like Anakin. In a way, it shows how they complete each other.

    Another point about Anakin and Amidala: this isn't a deep point of thematic symbolism, but a simple point of etiquette that I'd forgotten and it supports only a plot point. Traditionally in the West -- and I think largely in the East, though I don't know for sure -- only the betrothed should give and accept jewellry to and from one another. I think, when GL uses something like this, he's apt to be following a traditional pattern. By the giving and accepting of the pendant, the betrothal of these two characters is achieved... without their being aware of it, though the audience senses it on some level because we know what jewellry means.
  24. Herman Snerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 6
    Hey JediGaladriel, good to see you're back.

    You mentioned the pendant Anakin gave Amidala and its signifigance as an item of betrothal.

    I was reminded of the belief (I believe it to be Native American in origin though I confess I am uncertain) that when a person creates something with his own hands, a piece of his own soul or essence goes into his creation. In this way Anakin is giving a piece of himself to Amidala.

    There is added signifigance in that the gift he gives her is a pendant, as a pendant is worn over the heart. The heart, as we all know, signifies love.

    I wish I could add something about the material the pendant was made of or the design of it. Also the pendant wasn't hung on a metallic chain, but was held around the neck by what appeared to be a leather strap. Metal of course has already been discussed as cold and lifeless, while a material made from the hide of an animal (bantha?) indicates more of a natural feel. Also a leather strap has the added meaning of its simplicity.
  25. JediGaladriel Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 1999
    star 5
    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Herman Snerd:

    You mentioned the pendant Anakin gave Amidala and its signifigance as an item of betrothal.

    I was reminded of the belief (I believe it to be Native American in origin though I confess I am uncertain) that when a person creates something with his own hands, a piece of his own soul or essence goes into his creation. In this way Anakin is giving a piece of himself to Amidala.

    I like that; it's interesting and may well play into the way the pendant works in the prequels (anyone out there who thinks we've seen the last of the pendant, please raise your hands...)

    What I was thinking with the betrothal is that there are a lot of tales about such "accidental" betrothals. My mind is in Yiddish folk belief, but I'm sure it's true in other cultures as well. The betrothal always ends up drawing the couple together, until they make it work.


    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
    I wish I could add something about the material the pendant was made of or the design of it. Also the pendant wasn't hung on a metallic chain, but was held around the neck by what appeared to be a leather strap. Metal of course has already been discussed as cold and lifeless, while a material made from the hide of an animal (bantha?) indicates more of a natural feel. Also a leather strap has the added meaning of its simplicity.

    Well, wood, like leather, is a natural substance, so that all plays into the theme of.... well, not nature vs. technology, but nature vs., maybe, technocracy? I'm looking at the snippet from the Visual Dictionary now, and it seems to have a star motif -- a four wavy diagonals leading to the points of a square in the center, with a star in the upper left, and the bottom center (the bottom center is a four-pointed star). There are finger-shaped grooves on the long sides. I may be off-base, but it looks a bit like a star map to me... and the four-point star looks like a compass. Maybe not such a bad thing to have when you're lost in the dark.
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