Random Symbols (Ivory Tower: Episode 2)

There was one line of discussion where the charm is considered as being the same as Mon Mothma's medal. I would suggest that it might have been the model for that medal -- perhaps as a reminder of a more innocent and idealistic age (and, ironically, one which did not really exist even when it was made)?

 

First things first -- check out this cool article on Jar Jar as the Holy Fool, linked from the TFN main page.
http://www.space.com/spaceimagined/movies/jar_jar_holy_fool_000414.html http://www.space.com/spaceimagined/movies/jar_jar_holy_fool_000414.html

I really love the idea of it being Jar Jar who spirits the twins away. That would be excellent.

I went looking for Mon Mothma's medal (you can see a decent -- and large -- picture of it at http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/imageFolio/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Characters/Mon_Mothma&image=mothma3.jpg&img= http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/imageFolio/imageFolio.cgi?action=view&link=Characters/Mon_Mothma&image=mothma3.jpg&img= ), and I don't think it bears that strong a resemblance. Hers looks like a rising arrow. Either that or a pine tree, I never can tell the difference. The symbols look like they mean different things at any rate, but the parallel of the unpolished art and arcane symbols is pretty strong.

 

I really think of Jar Jar as a sort of Polonius character from Hamlet. He is a fool, and has a lot of traits that, while do not make him evil, do not make him desirable either. Yet at the same time it cannot be refuted that both Jar Jar and Polonius are characters endowed with deep insight, even though Jar Jar is no Jedi, and Poloius no blood member of the royal house of Denmark. I'm reminded of the line I REALLY wish they had kept in TPM: "Why are the gods so cruel?" to which Amidala's response was: "To motivate us, I suppose." Also his line "Wesa got a grand army. That's why you not liken us so much methinks."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Geneva,Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>check out this cool article on Jar Jar as the Holy Fool

Cool is right, JediGaladriel. I admire Lucas' positioning of minority beings (for want of a better term; can't say less-technologically advanced because the Gungans have some pretty clever technology themselves) as vital to the success on Naboo and, later, the success of the Rebellion. And I hope the speculation on Jar Jar's role in saving the twins pans out; since the saga is a children's story, it would well show that heroes aren't defined by looks or athleticism.

 

I do not at all believe we've seen the last of the pendant. I believe it will stand as a symbol of Anakin and Amidala's love, and more importantly, of Anakin the way he was at the time of it's creation. A powerful scene for EII or EIII would be it's destruction at the hands of Anakin in front of Amidala. It wouldn't have to be a blatant act of evil, but merely an accident, and an act of foreshadowing that which is to come.
I find an interesting part of the 'droids as the avatars for A&A' that R2, Amidala's avatar, most closely associates himself with Luke, who most closely resembles Anakin, and that 3PO, Anakin's avatar, most closely associates himself with Leia (especially in the EU, but even in the OT he most resembles her), who most closely resembles Amidala. Like it has previously been stated, this shows how much A&A complement each other.
Perhaps we will see Amidala wearing the pendant as part of her dress before she is reunited with Anakin.

OK, good to see this page back on track. Some random foreshadowings I've recently seen in TPM: Palpatine's cloak passes over Anakin's face (I forget which scene, I think it's the platform on Coruscant). In the Anakin/Shmi departure (I didn't recently see this one, but I can't remember if it's been mentioned anywhere, so here it is [although it is, as I've said, more of a foreshadowing than a symbol]), Anakin asks Shmi if they'll ever see each other again. When she tells him to ask his heart (alluding to his force-sensitivity), he never responds assuredly, and yet Shmi assures him that this unassured reply assures their reunity. *Bleh!* It is my belief that Anakin will never again see Shmi alive, but his memory will fail him and he will believe that it was the force's decree that they were to meet once more, and this seeming failure of the light side will be one more pull of the strings by Palpatine to sway Annie towards the Dark Side. *Whew*
Well, now that I've got that off my chest and have contributed (excuse the abuse of the term) to the rebounding (hopefully) thread, I'll be off.

 

Ol'val.

Just adding a.block's link (might make it a little easier to find):
Forum7/HTML/004887.htmlMetaphors and such of TPM
The focus seems to be on cinematographic metaphor, rather than literary.

Do any want further "lotus" installments? I would not like to sidetrack an underway discussion.

Kida

 

I'd love more lotus stuff!

BTW, another link of interest to Random Symbols folks -- this page is just getting its feet over at the official site. It's dedicated to a comparative religion analysis of the movies. http://fan.starwars.com/padawansecrets/main.htmlPadawan: Secrets of the Force . (I thought of it because it's been promised that there will be discussion of Luke as regards the lotus, and I'm dying to hear it.)

I could even see the pendant falling into the fire with Anakin. Though a part of also thinks that it -- and Amidala -- somehow make it through, but that's the fic writer in me, not the literary analyst.

I'll have to watch for the cloak passing over Anakin's face. It's been awhile since I've seen anything like that, and I'm not sure, but I think that touching someone with your clothing has some meaning.

 

....back on track indeed.

While watching for the cloak scene, notice that part of the platform scene on Coruscant is shot from Anakin's point of view. I believe he is looking up at Valorum and Palpatine. Its similar to the Threepio perspective earlier in the film.

The mention of betrothals reminded me of a passage in Arabian Nights, from The Story of the Two Vizers, ....thought I'd post it here for your consideration. It is fairly long, so if you don?t want to read it skip down to the next dashed line. I posted the entire passage because my attempts at summarizing didn?t seem to quite get the idea across?..

---------------------------------------
The attendants presented the bride, in her first dress, as she swayed coquettishly, to the delight and amazement of Badr al-Din Hasan (the hero of the current story) and everyone present. When he looked at his cousin (the bride) in her red satin dress and saw her blooming radian face, he was happy and rejoiced at what he saw, for she was like the one of whome the excellent poet said:

Like the sun above a reed in the dunes, she flamed,
Clad in a pomegranate red attire ,
And offered me the bounty of her cheeks
And her lips? wine to quench my burning fire.

Then they changed her dress and put on a blue one, and she reappeared like the shining moon, with jet black hair, soft cheeks, smiling mouth, swelling bosom, firm wrists, and opulent limbs. She was like her of whom the noble poet said:

She came in lapis blue, O heavenly sight,
A moon of summer on a winter?s night.

Then they clad her with another dress and, letting down her long tresses, which were as black as the deep night, veiled her face with her abundant hair, save for her eyes, which pierced the hearts with their keen arrows. She was like her of whom the poet said:

Veiling her cheeks with hair, she came to charm,
And like a dove appeared to lovers? harm.
I said, ?You veil the morning with the night.?
Said she, ?No, ?tis the moon that I veil from the light.?

Then they clad her with the fourth dress, and she reappeared like the rising sun, swaying coquettishly, turning gracefully like a deer, and piercing the hearts with the arrows of her eyes. She was like her of whom the poet said:

The sun of beauty she to all appears,
With coy reserve and with coquettish grace.
And when the sun beholds her radiant smile,
He in the clouds hastens to hide his face.

Then they presented her in the fifth dress, which revealed her wonders, as she swayed her hips and shook her ringlets and curving sidetresses, like a willow bough or a deer bending to drink. She was like her of whom the poet said:

She comes like a full moon on a fair night,
With dainty limbs and with a slender waist,
With eyes that subdue all men with their charm,
With cheeks that vie with rubies at their best.
She trails her jet black hair over her hips;
Beware the serpents of her curls, beware!
Her sides are sof, but alas, alas!
A heart harder than stones lies hidden there.
From arching brows she sends her darting looks,
Which, although distant, never miss the mark.
When I embrace her waist to press her to my heart,
Her swelling breasts repel and push me back.
Ah, how her beauty all outshines, and how
Her fair shape puts to shame the tender bough.

Then they presented her in the sixth dress, which was green. In this she attained the height of beauty, shaming a bronze spear with her slender form and the bending bough with her softness and suple grace and outshining the rising moon with her radiant face. She surpassed every fair woman in the world and broke every heart, as the poet said of one like her:

There was a maid with such polish and grace
That e?en the sun seemed borrowed from her face.
Bedecked in green she came, fair to behold,
As a pomegranate bud the green leaves enfold.
And when we asked, ?What do you call this dress??
She answered in sweet words meant to impress,
?Since I have tortured many with my arts,
In this dress, I call it Breaker of Hearts.?
---------------------------------------------------
Okay, its not exactly great poetry

 

I suppose this is the best place to post about J. Campbell themes. It seems it's not wise to post new topics, since nothing is deemed original anymore.

Anyway, I've been reading The Hero With A Thousand Faces, and have been thinking a lot about how the hero's journey relates to both Anakin and to Luke.

Luke obviously rises to the call of adventure. There is no question here. But, as we all know, the Star Wars saga most concerns the rise, fall, and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. I've been thinking a lot about how Anakin falls into these themes.

Here's what I've come up with: Anakin is one who has refused the call. He is merely the tool of Palpatine, and follows only his course. Many times, Anakin has been given the chance to rise up against him and follow his own path, many of which we'll sure see in Episodes 2 and 3. For much of Anakin's later life, he is like sleeping beauty, waiting for a prince to save him, or in Anakin's case, waiting for his son.

Whadya think?

 

Ol'val.

All right: the next "lotus" installment follows within the next 24 hours.

In the meantime, I leave you with two technology-related images: that of molten metal, and the image of the person made of metal, sometimes (eg. Daniel) with one or more supporting limbs of clay or earth. The second has already been touched on in the discussion of the 'droids and Vader, and is found most commonly either as a primal figure or as a vision-symbol of change. In the Iranian Bundahishn, when the first human Gaya Maretan (lit. "human life") died, his body became molten brass, whiel the metals gold, silver, iron, tin, lead, quicksilver, and adamant arose from his limbs (xxiv). Gold particularly is associated with procreation: Gaya's seed is gold, and after forty years brings forth the first human pair, Mashya and Mashyoi. Jedi Eowyn has mentioned Forum7/HTML/003757.htmlelsewhere the golden shower which resulted in the birth of Perseus.

For the first, SW abounds with reactor cores, gas giant cores, and other places where elements are refined and/or melded: an extremely common image across many religious texts. Besides the relatively familiar Biblical "refiner's fire", one finds pits of molten metal burning up evil at the end of time in the Iranian Avesta, several Hindu texts, and Islamic associated texts (but not specifically in the Qu'ran, suggesting that this might be a culturally acquired image).

Finally, metallurgy as a technology has a strong association with sacred lore and the invocation of occult forces, to the extent that this technology frequently became the specialty of fire-priests in temples that maintained fire-altars. This is especially true for those techniques which generated fire of varying intensities. In several traditions the smith becomes a sacred figure equivalent to a wizard or priest: perhaps parallel to the SW technical adept?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/3818/SAMMONT.jpg
Forging the Sampo by Akseli Gallen-Kallela


The old man of the air blasts out his lightning. The fire from it penetrates the earth and reaches down as far as Manala, the underworld. iron stallions are born. "I fear neither wolves nor beasts of the forest, for they are to be found in my spurs and in my iron chains."
- http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/sounds/kalhe.wavThe Birth of Fire

[This message has been edited by Shar Kida (edited 04-18-2000).]

 

Ol'val.

Someone should post in between, yes? Even if it does mean waiting 36 hours, rather than 24?

Kida

 

I wonder about the laughing bird on Naboo which is heard twice, once when the Jedi wade into the water to begin their approach to the Gungan underwater city to seek assistance, and a second time when the Gungans are amassing for a desperate and useless battle.

Almost as if the universe itself were laughing at their futile efforts to avert what is coming?

 

This place is huge!....so this has probably been said...My apologies ahead of time if so...

The symbols carved into the snippet of wood Anakin gives Amidala reminded me of the pattern of dials/switches on Vader's chest plate...have to look at my Visual Dictionaries again and compare the two....either that or its a map pointing to dry land....now, wouldn't that just tie everything together???? Kevin Costner was a cloned Gungan/Naboo hybrid...the possibilties! Palpatine unleashes a deadly weapon that melted the polar ice caps of Naboo...

 

Ol'val.

Running late I am; apologise I must. Looking for picture I am. Hoping still I am major post someone else first to write.

Welcoming to the Forums I am A Good Friend; but feel I do from somewhere else is known, hmmm?

Thought I leave, sinestricity and cast blocking. Returning to Naboo especially, but also throughout, on the left stands who, hmmm? In the Council, foremost two are, on the left sits who, hmmm?

Kida

 

To turn back to the subject of Vader's turn:

I too, do not believe a standard 'love triangle' is in store for Anakin. HOWEVER, I feel Lucas will show that love was insufficient to save him, and quite possibly that Anakin realized at some point that while he loved Amidala unconditionally, the love was not completely reciprocated.

Although it's hardly a mythical construct, I'm reminded of Pink Floyd's album The Wall, which would be the perfect source to use for the construction of Darth Vader. Anakin, piece by piece, building his wall, the human being inside slowly disappearing with most people too busy to notice...

Until the final last message in Epsiode III, perhaps given just as much to the audience as the characters in the movie:

All in all you were all just bricks in the wall!

 

No, Amidala will be as deeply in love with him as he is with her, and it might even prove the stronger of the two loves (it is, after all, what Luke stands for). The message of SW is pretty simple -- love redeems. So love is requited, and love produces the eventual redemption.

 

JediGaladriel: Mmm...Sorry, I don't really buy that's what Lucas is going to do.

For one thing, it puts just about ALL the responsiblity of Anakin's turn on Anakins shoulders. IMHO, Anakin should ONLY bear more resonsibility than any other person-- but that doesn't necessarily make it MOST of the responsibility. I think Anakin should be in many ways the reflection of the society that made him, and his sin was to give in to the desire of retribution, and to hate those that wronged him.

There is evidence that this may be the case in the TPM novel. Brooks tends to often state that while Anakin seems to gush on the inside over Amidala, she does not over him.

This does not mean that Amidala does not care for Anakin. It does not even mean she does not love him. It DOES mean that there are other things in life she puts before Anakin, things that in retrospect, perhaps she shouldn't.

A 'pure' Amidala would not reflect a tragedy. Many tragedys do have this sort of figure, but I'd like to think that modern myths are capable of creating more complex characters.

As for 'The Wall', I'm reminded of one visual of Pink leading a column of his hammer guards down a long hall on the way to thier nurmburg concert. This would be the perfect way to depict Anakin if you are going to show him pre-Vader. A lifeless expression of hate as worn by Bob Geldof (and, in his own way, Darth Maul), very tight black clothing that almost matches Luke's getup in ROTJ (though maybe adorned with the Imperial symbol). His hair slicked back so as to suggest lifelessness, leading his stormtroopers into homes and destroying them, opening them up with perhaps a red lightsaber so the others can charge in...

 

Hmmm...I think that both views could be valid. I support the idea of Amidala's love being strong and pure, a la Galadriel, but I like the idea of Anakin reflecting the society. I think that both aspects could be maintained.
I find it interesting that the TPM novel is written largely from Anakin's POV.

 

I just re-read this threads very well thought out stuff, and i felt that i needed to humbly interject an idea of my own (i figure an idea or two every month or two is good) anyway... what i wanted to mention was something in a different vein. suppose there is a love triangle or a percieved love triangle. it could happen. i know that there are many speculators about this topic on all three sides of the triangle (there is a triangle, there is a percieved triangle, or there is not a triangle) most people agree that the three "main" characters will be anikin, amidala, and obi-wan. in ANH the three main characters were luke, leia, and han. There were supporting characters, of course, but the story revolved around those three. why three? what is the significance of the number three? what is the significance of some of the other number references in the movies? if you include the droids the number moves to 5 (although 3-po really didn't have that large of a role in tpm). is that important? in the first installment of each of the trilogies there started out with 4 main characters, but ended with 3. is this significant? if you look at the consistent supporting characters in TPM and ANH what number does that produce?

how about the bad guys? the two darth's in TPM, what is the significance of 2? why was vader the only really bad guy in ANH (can you really consider tarkin?)?

anyway... i really just wanted this to see the light of day again.

 

Ol'val.

Thank you all for your patience. This is not as complete as I would like it, but if I do not get to it now, the delay will be even longer (which also seems to serve as a lead-in to Lotus III: a flower in the hand).

Although later analogies tend toward abstraction (and thus neutering) of the lotus flower into preservation and revivifying of the life of the law (and may be, in this capacity, worn on the wrist of those bodhisattvas who do not possess the specific and direct lotus characteristics discussed earlier; also carried in the hand of Maitreya, the Buddha-to-come), early lotus imagery has a distinctly feminine association, being held by both Hindu and Buddhist dominant goddesses. Here the lotus doubles (in its capacity as "life everlasting") as a symbol for preservation and procreation, and seems to have originally been something of a fertility symbol (in the Satapatha Brahmanana it is symbolic of the womb, and retains something of this sense in the mantra ohm mani padme hum). It is also partly in this sense that it is held in the hand of Avalokita (the consort/masculine aspect of Tara) to whom this mantra is specifically addressed, as ""Hail to Avalokitesvara, who is the jewel in the heart of the lotus of the devotee's heart!"

[It seems the original (following) image link broke, and I can find no other precise representation of it: so I substitute this one as being closest for now along the ideas of lotus and compassion (but continuing to hope the other resurfaces -- somewhere).

The residence of Avalokiteshvara surrounded by the deities of his entourage, coloured sand mandala (undated)

http://www.proratio.sk/AtHome/mandala/man21.jpg

The five colours of the mansion's outer walls (white, yellow, red, green, and blue) represent faith, effort, memory, meditation, and wisdom. (These colour-symbolisms might prove useful for future prequel analysis, depending on how closely GL holds to Buddhist colour schemata.) The four doorways are the Four Immeasurable Thoughts: love, compassion, joy, and equanimity. The lotus flower in the centre of the mandala purifies passion into discriminating awareness, even as the vajra in the east (blue quadrant) purifies aggression into mirror-like wisdom; the jewel in the south (yellow quadrant) purifies pride into the wisdom of equality; the wheel in the west (white quadrant) purifies ignorance into wisdom; and the sword in the north (green quadrant) purifies envy into all-encompassing wisdom. In this manner, these five images correspond the five psycho-physical components of a human being.

Mandala (universe representation) of Bodhisattva - Avalokiteshvara (1700's)
[to be replaced when tracked down - SK]

http://imageserver.tibetart.com:8087/fif=fpx1/279.fpx&obj=iip,1.0&hei=262&cvt=jpeg">

Here Avalokitesvara, the Great Compassionate One of Tibetan Buddhism, is shown sitting with four arms, two hands holding a crystal prayer bead mala (rosary) and a lotus flower, and the other two hands folded in the "jewel holding" position (indicating that he holds the most precious truth of the Dharma). His position at the centre of a mandala in this way indicates that the bodhisattva uses his enlightened energy to bring each of the six classes of living beings into the realms of compassion and enlightenment - and the six-fold universe of those six classes of living beings is itself unfolded upon a six-petalled lotus.

http://sunsite.univie.ac.at/Present/edmed96/museum/d103.jpg
Zanabazar (1635-1723), Peaceful Tara with vase and lotus
(Bogdo Khan Palace Museum)

Like many Tibet-Mongolian Buddhist deities, Tara has both benevolent and wrathful aspects. The Benevolent Tara shown here, her form framed by lotuses and a seated Amitabha Buddha in her crown, has a strong association with the northern Chinese Kuan (Shih) Yin (lit. "the one who regards, looks on, or hears the sounds of the world"), the Lightbearer who has not only laid down her life for her friends but become the compassionate bearer of burdens and intercessor, a bodhisattva who has chosen to forego Nirvana in

 

Has anyone wondered whether it might be Amidala's actions which become darker, and which Anakin rejects in turning to Sidious? Based on her clear willingness to use people throughout TPM, would it be so very unbelievable when a ruling monarch takes an action "for the good of her people" which the apparently innocent Anakin might question? and in so questioning, also question every personal judgement of character ever made by Amidala (of the Jedi, of Palpatine)?

Second, on the idea of sinestricity:
The left-right dichotomy seems to subtly run throughout TPM in little elements (such as Maul always being seen in person on the left of the Niemoudians, the setting sun to the left of the nearly new moon in the Jedi Council sunset scene, etc). However, one piece of blocking stands out in particular: that of those advising Amidala upon her shipboard preparations for returning to Naboo. Facing Amidala, every one of those advisors is on the right: Qui-Gon, Kenobi, Jar-Jar ... except Panaka. He, alone, stands on the left.

It is a theme which echoes elsewhere in TPM, but perhaps comes across most forcefully in this single scene.

 

top

 

Jeezum Crow! Up!

 

I posted this on an architecture thread here in the forum, but .... well, enough said. If you've seen the ideas before, that's why.

The spaces in TPM show a stress between what is outside and what is inside. The hospitable space is pressed upon by the "other" space. The Gun guns live in globes surrounded by water. In the swamps with the exiled Gun Guns, we see the overgrown remains of civilization. In Theed, we see plants and greens everwhere, and the city itself is surrounded by the forests. Both the Gun guns and the Naboo are making space for themselves, pushing back nature which is not completely hospitable.

The ships which fly through space also hold back the space and make pockets for people to live in. When those pockets are hurt, the people become victims of the elements.

On Corcuscant the relationship between living space and the surrounding nature can be summed up in those windowed towers. They are far from the ground, and the windows keep the outside air out. Interestingly, Sidious and Maul go out on the balcony -- they are part of what is encroaching? They are comfortable in the world which others are holding off.

The Queen's party is also outside while traveling from ship to Corcuscant palace, but that is momentary and necessary. Obi Wan and Qui Gon spend time out side together on Corcuscant, and we see Qui Gon completely at ease even in this environment while Obi Wan wants to embrace the rules of the Jedi indoors.

The senate chamber, like a mushroom, stands with as few legs as possible on the ground (one) and expands into it's great curved hall above ground. The senate chamber not only holds out the wind of corcuscant, but it also seems to hold out the sight of the planet -- it seems to be a building without windows!

On Tatooine the sand storm threatens dwellers who reatreat into their dwellings.

People are driven together and cling together in TPM, islands of civilization and habitation in otherwise inhospitable terrain.

I expect we will see repeat of this in upcoming movies, with the view of Aldaraan, and with more views of Corcuscant.

The more at odds the hospitable environment is with the encroaching other evironment, the more vulnerable it is to fall. PErhaps part of the action of the Classic trilogy is a return to being at ease in the galaxy wihtout all the protections of environmental engineering, and part of the action in the prequels will be the revelation of how dependant people have become upon their environmentally engineered spaces.

This would parallel the relationship of humans to non humans in the galaxy, the relationship of empire to rebels, and republic to beyond the republic territories. In each case there is a stress between an engineered environment and a different status quo.

My guess is that in the next two movies we will see a determination to maintain the status quo and keep the engineered environments unchanged, supportive of life. This means a stagnation of sorts as they seperate themselves from what is around, which is nature.

 

interesting points about the separation of living space and external space. there was also the sandstorm on tatooine. mentioning tatooine, qui gon went out into its elements while obi wan stayed behind in the "safe" environment.

anyway... change "nature" to elements. you have almost all of the primary elements. earth in the form of the sand storm, water and the gungan city, and air in courescant. all that is missing is fire. will that come in the future?

anyway... as always this is just a thought