Random Symbols (Ivory Tower: Episode 2)

You've got a point there. But more similar to ROTJ is TPM. It's like holding up a mirror...

1. Gungans vs. Ewoks

2. Qui-Gon introduces "certain point of view" vs. Kenobi using "certain point of view" to explain his fibs to Luke

3. Qui-Gon's funeral pyre vs. Vader's

Are there other direct references?

If anything, all the movies are similar because they were made by the same man! So much for theory

WonTon Soupy

 

Hi people! great posts! great to meet you!

So much to say, but still digesting!

About the parallel to the tree scene from ESB -- I had completely not thought of that! I wonder if it can be paralleled -- that is SUCH an amazing scene for Luke, how to do it for Anakin??!!??

Luke goes and takes his light sabre, faces the dark side, and flees at the vision of himself beheading Vader who turns out to be Luke. (WOW!!!)

How to do something like that for Anakin????

The nightmare hinged on the collapse of artificial distance. The distance between Luke & his foe turned to be nothing and Luke ran. This is part necessary because Luke did not have the data necessary to understand what this could possibly begin to mean.

Will Anakin face a similar collapse in the distance between himself and his foe? Yoda told Luke not to take the weapon -- you will find what you bring.

I am always struck by how well everything having to do with Yoda is in ESB. I salivate at the hope that Lucas might do the magic again.

 

Yes...how to do something like that for Anakin...
Though this general idea parts from the purpose of the thread, to arrive at a conclusion, we must analyze the symbolism of Luke's failure. So, YAY!!! we get to speculate...and this thread needs some new juice anyhow. So let's delve in...
As Eowyn pointed out (very insightful...I hadn't thought of it that way), Luke's encounter is all about the collapsing of the perceived distance between him and his enemy. Now...who, pray tell, is Anakin's enemy? Is it Sidious? The Sith? The Republic? The Jedi? Yoda? The 'clones'? Obi-Wan? Himself? Slavery? Amidala? [your suggestion here]?
For the connection to work, it has to be something that he feels separate from, distanced from. Now, what does he feel distanced from, but is really quite close to? I think he feels distanced from the Jedi, but if he is proven to be close to them, as he really is, it is not, by any means, a bad thing. I don't believe we know enough about Anakin's enemies to predict this.
But...I have noticed that he fits something similar. There are plenty of things that he could feel close to but be shown to be far from...perhaps Amidala? The Jedi? This distance does not have to be real, but it could be perceived, perhaps as part of his journey down the dark path, manipulated by Palpatine.
Hmmm...

 

True. Luke was bridging the gap between himself and the enemy, ESB facilitating that by presenting the crucial Dagobah Cave scene. Then his enemy materializes at the end of ROTJ and it is none other than his father and the choices that he made that led him to don the robes of Vader, the very same choices that Luke has been struggling with since ANH, but unlike father, son triumphs (and through him, so does his father). This makes sense, after all, Lucas numerous times has said that the SW saga is about the choices people make.

However, Lucas does rely on symbols, but he does make these tangible. i.e. Evil is represented by black-masked Vader, while Good is represented by the white-robe-wearing Princess Leia. These are real people within the story, not some abstracts.

So the question is what Evil incarnate will Anakin be fighting? Probably the Sith apprentice who on a greater scale will represent all that is wrong with the SW galaxy, and by striking him down in anger, Anakin will fail (unlike his son Luke who refused to kill his father, despite being goaded by the Emperor).

It will probably be a heart-wrenching replay scene by scene of that final duel in ROTJ in which either way you sit down to watch the saga (be it 4-6, 1-3 or 1-6) you will be screaming at the screen, hoping that the paths father and son choose respectively will be the right ones. That is, if you sit down and watch it 1-6, by the time you get to the last episode you'll be in jitters, hoping Luke doesn't screw it all up like his father, or if you watch the OT first then Prequels, you'll be twisted in anger and anticipation, upset that Anakin was such a dolt and thankful that his son comes along in the end to set things right.

WonTon Soupy

 

Ok, let's try slavery. Anakin starts out as a slave, but doesn't act like one. He comes and goes where he pleases, he has a droid, etc. Then he's freed. But ironically the moment he's freed his real journey into slavery begins. First and foremost he's a slave to the fact that he's the chosen one. His life is mapped out for him by that fact. Then he becomes a slave to the Jedi. Then to the machines that keep him alive and then finally, the Emperor and the Dark Side. So he starts out thinking he's free but ends more a slave than he was on Tatooine.

 

Slavery: I think it was PrimeTime_Jedi over in TPM who just brought up Vader's line to Obi Wan: "When I left you I was but a slave, now I am the master." I suspect that Anakin carries within him the memory of slavery like a wound which doesn't heal. I suspect that is what is behind that line to Obi-Wan. But I don't know.

 

I believe Vader's line was "When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master."

And Kenobi counters with "Only a Master of Evil, Darth."

Or something like that...

 

Actually, the line is: "When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master." He never, in all the OT, mentions slavery.

Quite different, but still insightful: he is referring to their last meeting, obviously. In this meeting, the master/learner relationship was clear; this may mean that Obi-Wan defeats Vader.
The whole dialogue is pretty good:
VADER: I've been waiting for you, Obi-Wan. We meet again, at last. The circle is now complete. When I left you, I was but the learner; now I am the master.
BEN: Only a master of evil, Darth.

 

One difference between slavery and freedom is that a slave has few decisions to make for himself.

Once freed and on his way to becoming a Jedi, Anakin would suddenly have a multitude of decisions to make.

Strangely enough, by joining up with Palpatine, Anakin/Vader is once again the person who doesn't make the decisions. He just carries them out.

 

Like Vader didn't find sick pleasure in carrying those orders out? You could accuse Vader of a lot of things except of being stingy with those Force chokes.

Sometimes slaves choose to be enslaved.

WonTon Soupy

 

Thanks for putting up the quote. Odd quote. I wonder if Anakin/Vader is a Jedi learner when he and Obi-Wan last meet.

The completed circle. What circle is Anakin talking about? Does he think he's balancing the force at that moment? Or just evening the score between him and Kenobi? If he's just evening the score, that's darn petty for 2nd in command of the imperium to be getting involved with -- rise above it & oppress the guy!

"You should not have come here old man." The relationship between Obi-Wan & Anakin doesn't make sense yet. Is Anakin implying that Ben should have valued the security in hiding over commitment to cause?

 

I don't think Vader took any pleasure in what he was doing, do you? It seemed like he was just serving his master. He WAS a slave as Vader, much more than he was as Anakin. Hence the lines,

"You don't know the power of the dark side. I MUST obey my master"
"It is pointless to resist."
"It is too late for me."

It seemed very clear that he didn't have a choice in what he was doing. Even though it seemed to us like he could stop at any time, he was obviously enslaved by the Dark Side of the force.

 

Yes, Vader was enslaved by the Dark Side. But he allowed himself to be seduced by it and chose it for himself.

In TPM when Anakin was debating leaving his mother on Tatooine Shmi told him that the choice was put before him and that only he could choose. That she couldn't choose for him. Likewise, the temptation of the dark side was put before him, and that's what he chose. If he ended up a slave to it, well, that's what you get when you make a wrong choice.

WonTon Soupy

 

"You cannot stop the sun from setting" Shmi says on a world with two suns. Perhaps one sun has to set and the other will remain shining bright? Some era must end but some era is still ongoing? Vader's choice will be horrid but comprehensible?

oooo. Shivers on spine. Thought of Anakin leaving mom paralleled in Anakin leaving Jedi. oooo. Returns both to Jedi & family at end of RotJ in person of Luke.

We may be products of decisions, but will we always get another chance to get it right? Vader did. Emperor didn't.

 

"Perhaps one sun has to set and the other will remain shining bright?"

Anakin and Obi-Wan, respectively...?

 

Hi everyone!

There's now a version of this thread in the non-spoilers forum. I missed the home thread here, but can't stay in the spoilers forum.

http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=738736&replies=1

I'll perhaps relent some and drop by on occasion, but I'll be scanning the responces instead of reading them.

Anyway, to what IronParrot said -- that's a possibility for sure. SW is full of doubles: double sun, twins, Jedi/Sith, light/dark, living/unifying, human/alien, master/padawan, fallen/unfallen.

Perhaps that line (cannot stop the sun from setting) is meant to show that (from Shmi's perspective at least) one element of a double can be lost. Whatever the wholeness of the universe is, it does include the dissolution of elements in its own fabric.

And my gut instinct is now that Anakin is ruled by two different suns. Jedi/Sith? Tatooine/Republic? I don't know what.

 

I believe that Shmi is simply trying to say that change is inevitable. But with the films use of setting suns, it does become more interesting. The setting sun is used to show the end of an era, as previously stated. I think that Shmi's saying this does a few things. It provides the setting sun imagery without having a sun visually set. It also hints that Anakin is powerless to stop eras from ending. Perhaps he is powerless to stop the Republic from falling?

 

Jeeze...I may be missing something, but has this thread like, not been replied to in, like, forever? That sorta sucks. Wish I had some symbolic insight to contribute...but I don't...oh well.

 

JediGaladriel has disappeared. That's probably why it's gone so downhill...

 

Ye olde uppers

 

I posted a thread on sunsets a little while go and it didn't really generate much interest. Considering that this thread got me thinking about the significance of sunsets in Star Wars, I going to give my topic another shot here, and see if it generates a better response:

By now most people have seen, the select picture with the sunset;

http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/select/2000/46/

The presence of a sunset in a Star Wars film is always significant because it symbolizes change and transition.

Here is a listing of the sunsets in the 4 films:

ANH - 1) R2 is captured by the jawas: The jawas bring R2 from one Skywalker to another. 2) The sunset at the Larr's homestead: Luke is staring at the two suns and looking to his future. This is the last night Luke spends at this home. R2 runs away and Luke in pursuit, starts down the path towards his destiny.

ESB - 1) The sunset as the heroes arrive at Bespin: They are walking into a trap. The next day Han is captured and frozen in carbonate. 2) The second sunset on Bespin: Fett leaves with Han. Luke finds out that Vader is really his father; and that Ben has lied to him.

ROTJ - 1) The funeral pyre: Essentially its not a sunset, but its is presented in the film like one. The scenes progresses from Endor at daytime to the pyre to a shot of the night sky. The pyre finalizes Vader's redemption. He is put to rest like a true Jedi. 2) The sunset during the celebration at Bespin: This doesn't really symbolize anything in particular, but it fits nicely with the previous shot of Mos Eisley during the day, and the subsequent shot of Coruscant at night.

TPM - 1) The sunset on Coruscant: This occurs while Anakin is being presented to the Jedi council. It follows the scene in the Senate where Valorum has been ousted. In essence, the sun is going down on the Old Republic and the Jedi, because Palpatine will be elected the new chancellor. 2) The sunset in Theed before Qui-gonn?s funeral: Yoda informs Obi-wan that Anakin will be trained as a Jedi under his guidance.

Here's my take on the sunset in the desert:

It's really pretty simple to derive the significance of the sunset at this point in episode II if you look at it in relation to the rumored sequence which follows. Anakin has wanders off into the desert to finds Shimi being murdered by Tuskens. She dies; he meditates through out the night; and takes his revenge on a family of Tuskens.

The sunset shares the same significance as the one in TESB. This sequence is essentially the jump-off point for the entire prequel trilogy. In a previous forum, someone stated that after the father revelation in TESB; the entire focus of the trilogy changed. After that scene, the original trilogy stopped being about a boy's struggle to topple an evil empire and became more about a son's struggle to save his father.

If you compare this sequence in episode II to the ESB you see essentially the same thing happening. During the sunset Shimi dies and essentially so does the innocent Anakin Skywalker, who was introduced in TPM. In the morning, Anakin commits murder. The innocent Anakin has died, and even though he hasn't been given the name yet, Darth Vader has just been born.

This is the jump off point for the prequel trilogy, because the focus now begins to move away from Anakin's quest for adventure as a Jedi and his love for Padme to how Anakin turns toward the Darkside. Anakin is now poised to walk down the path of his destiny.

What do you think?

 

up

 

My sunset post is dead air agian,huh?

 

Sorry guys -- I would read more, but I'm aiming to be spoiler free. E CHU TA!, I stopped reading your post when I hit what I thought might be one of the things I don't want to know.

I started one of these threads in non spoilers and it's ... about as busy as this one.

May the force be with you and I look forward to discussing this with you all again after movie 2. (Or minus the spoilers over in the no spoiler forum? hint? hint?)

 

Hey guys, here is my attempt at posting on this thread (yea, I actually sat down for half an hour reading this thread)

NEW IDEA: Inability to effect the future / course of events?

TPM:
?You cannot stop the suns from setting?? that whole line of discussion
The whole idea of being a chosen one (ie DESTINY)
The protective shields between Obi Wan and Darth Maul \ Qui-Gon

EPISODE II:

The Crane: It traps Anakin and leaves him susceptible to being swayed by Count Dooku
The Sand-people kill Shimi before Ani is able to get back

ANH:
Luke?s line about the empire being so far away from him and what he was supposed to do about it
Uncle Owen restraining Luke from leaving? the next harvest?
Restraining bolts on the droids
?What good is one fighter against that Death Star??

ESB:
Once you start down the dark path?. That line by Yoda
Leia being helpless while Han is put into the Carbon chamber
The X-Wing sinks into the swamp and Luke has no idea of what to do


ROTJ:
Leia is chained and thus made ?almost? unable to effect what happens to her (ie Jabba?s control)
Droids being unwittingly put into slavery by Luke
The feeling that the rebels get when that Ewok goes and jumps on the Speeder Bike
The emperor mocks Luke about the fact that his friends are on Endor and hence he can do nothing to stop what is happening
?There?s nothing that can save me (stop that) now?