ST Rank the Last Jedi among the SW films

Yeah, I think it paints a slightly clearer picture if you group the above rankings into "above average" (1-4), "average" (5), and "below average" (6-9). I suspect a lot of the last place votes might be spiteful; as @Ender_and_Bean said above, it's mighty puzzling to place AotC above TLJ.

So we have 39% say it's above average, 9% say it's average, and 52% say it's below average. That sounds about right.

 

Puzzling as it may be if that is one’s opinion that is your opinion. It certainly is mine.

 

And that’s cool! I never said your opinion was wrong, or that you weren’t entitled to have it. I could certainly see how one could claim the world building in AotC was better, or the action scenes were, whatever else I think of it.

 

Like how the **** Rey may believe she may change Kylo?
Not sorry: how the **** may she believe... he is their only hope.
3 days after he killed his father, 3 days after he almost killed Finn, 3 days after
he didn't seem particulary disgusted by the Starkiller Base blowing up a couple of sistems.

It's "digging into the characters psycology"
It's genius.
Truly deeply, genius.

That... thing...

And sure Crait is visually... not the copy of Hoth.
It's a copy of Gullermo del Toro's Crimson Peak. Past and Copy. Literally.
Nice that the same critics that called the TLJ a masterpiece didn't notice it.
But it's nice that Del Toro has a nomenee this year, as best director. He.

The Bombers and the Speeders are the only two new design of the TLJ.
Can you really try to compare those tiny lttle things with what AOTC tried to achive?
Because there's no comparison... at all... at all... at all.

Why should I have to consider TLJ a better movie?
Can you make an argument?
One....Beside... the critics say it is a masterpeace?

@oncafar you know... you may tag me.

@Ender_and_Bean

 

Of the quieter moments in AOTC where action isn't occurring, which scenes or moments specifically exceed these TLJ moments in a combination of acting quality, believable well-written dialogue, and emotional weight?


1) Where in AOTC is there the quiet mysticism and intamacy of Luke asking Rey of Nowhere why SHE of all people was sent to Ahch-To in the birthplace of the Jedi Order itself that contains the ancient Jedi texts?

2) Which life lesson and scolding from Kenobi to Anakin tops Leia slapping Poe and teaching him the difference between heroes and leaders?

3) Which dramatic announcement in AOTC tops D'acy's update to the crew on the fate of the Senior Leadership followed by Admiral Holdo's introduction and speech about how they are the last of a movement?

4) Which setting in AOTC has the lived in visual spendor and plethora of practical effects that bring the introduction of the Canto Bight casino and its inhabitants to life.

5) Which creatures in AOTC have the 1980s Rick Baker/Jim henson quality of the Falthiers at the gates, or the Porgs up close, or the Crystal critters up close which were all practical effects? Certainly not arena "monsters."

6) Which moment in AOTC shows the excitement people have for the heroes the way seeing the stable kids excitement does?

7) Which moment in AOTC has the wakeup call that Finn is face to face with regarding the kind of person he could be in DJ if he doesn't join either side and thinks only of himself while looking at visuals of the weapons dealer's sales?

8) What moment between the heroes rivals Poe's passionate speech when he believes Holdo is a traitor that is purposely going to make it easier for the remaining Resistance to be destroyed?

9) What moment between the heroes rivals Holdo and Leia's final exchange to each other and Holdo looking up as the final transport leaves knowing that she will go down with that ship and that this will be her last day alive?

10) What on ship moment rivals Holdo seeing the plan falling apart and turning the ship around to face the Supremacy?

11) What exchange between Padme and Anakin in AOTC is better acted than when Rey is recounting her cave vision to Kylo Ren?

12) Find me one moment in AOTC as gut-wrenching as seeing Luke Skywalker heart-broken over the sight of Ben Solo corrupting yet another student and that student immediately channeling Dark Side anger to fight him unarmed and then having him admit that the Dark Side moment he suffered in ROTJ wasn't his last?

13) What moment in AOTC compares with seeing Rey and Kylo Ren side by side discussing a future that only they know with each believing the other will turn when the moment comes?

14) What moment in AOTC tops seeing Yoda for the first time in 30 years of chronological saga time on screen again and providing the best wisdom and life lessons he's ever given on screen since TESB to Luke again?

15) What in AOTC compares to Snoke's smackdown of Rey and terrifically arrogant and maniacal monologue to both Ben Solo and Rey and presentation of Rey via the Force to be executed by Kylo Ren?

16) What in AOTC was more surprising than having the primary villain killed a full movie earlier than just about everyone expected in a surprising way and put a member of the Skywalker bloodline at the throne for the first time?

17) What is more surprising in AOTC than seeing two people on opposite sides of the war fighting together as Rey and Kylo Ren eventually do versus the Praetorian guards in one of the most beautifully filmed and choreographed sequences in all of SW with curtains on fire behind them as the fight escalates?

18) What in AOTC is more captivating than when Ben Solo stares as the throne and realizes he's finally done what he set out to do and asks Rey to be the person he enjoys his riches with?

19) What is more emotionally satisfying in AOTC than seeing Luke atone to Leia and have his apology accepted and them share one final kiss knowing that had that moment never happened then and there it never would have happened again?

20) What in AOTC tops seeing Luke Skywalker pull off the most incredible Force feat that had everyone who was there that day convinced he was there because he was 99% there, and all of us in the audience convinced, and looking like Luke in his prime and being the hero we loved and remembered?

21) What emotionally in AOTC tops knowing Luke never suffered pain and wasn't killed at the end of Kylo Ren's blade and that he got to become one with the Force and meet Anakin and Obi-Wan and Yoda together for the first time together as one of them at the destination of his choosing, having rediscovered his faith in the Jedi, while staring up at the twin suns?

Some of the action scenes in AOTC are fun but there is just no comparison in filmmaking quality or emotional resonance between these two films when one separates their anger over what Luke became (briefly) or who Rey isn't and simply compares these two films on emotion, acting, direction, and drama. AOTC has the least effective moments of Canto Bight for much of its nearly 2.5 hour running time. It squanders the middle chapter of what is to be the downfall of Anakin Skywalker into Vader with a ton of filler and fluff that should have been left to Wookipedia pages that lacks any real drama and then avoids the real meat of the setup of the clone army to the Wookipedia pages themselves.

Fan Service and plot contrivances of AOTC
It's fan service-y to a fault and tries to take popular characters and shoehorn them or their parents into aspects of the saga that didn't need to happen. Boba Fett's dad is the one cloned who kills almost all of the Jedi? Really?! He was that special? Seriously? Jar Jar Binks gets left in charge of the Senate? We are supposed to buy this? An army of clones paid for somehow that comes with trillions of dollars worth of armor and weaponry that just keeps on building more and more without ever checking back in on the Jedi order itself for money or anything? And nobody in the galaxy hears of this happening ever when dealing with the Kaminoans? Really? And the entire thing is setup for the audience to buy from Master Sifo-Dyas, who no one in the audience knows about or cares about? How is that good storytelling? And people are complaining about a lack of backstory on Snoke? This guy setup the very thing that killed all of the Jedi. How is none of the really good stuff related to any of this on screen or in flashback of any kind so that it goes down smoother? And when it comes time to pick up the clones there's nobody who does any thorough vetting or quality assurance on them or the original purchase order? "Hmmm, what's this bit of fine print here that says "install a mind control method where all of the Jedi can be killed if one says the words "Execute order 66?" Other than that... this free clone army seems pretty convenient! Are you kidding me? People think TLJ made Luke look bad for a crisis of faith near the end of his life. AOTC made the Jedi Order, and specifically Yoda, look more disorganized and unwise than a children's lemonde stand run by Jar Jar after too many drinks at Dex's 1950s-inspired Earth diner.

 

I don't see the point of this becoming the 'ways in which TLJ is better than AOTC' thread. I think AOTC is better than TLJ. That's my opinion.

I think TLJ is a hugely flawed, visually dull, oddly paced, overly derivative movie. I think AOTC is one of the most visually beautiful, well crafted, emotionally stirring, thought-provoking movies ever made. But if someone else thinks otherwise, that's fine. I know some people probably think I'm mad for liking AOTC more. I could compare TLJ to any other SW movie and nitpick it to death. But I won't because I won't sway anyone here, and it would be a big waste of time. This isn't the place for AOTC fans to pen massive rebuttals.

Can we go back to ranking TLJ against all the films, instead of hyper-critiquing a 15 year old movie?

 

Amen to that.

 

1. TLJ














679. This thread right now

 

Works for me but if people are going to provide hit and run TLJ bashing on the ST forum while hyping up AOTC in comparison to TLJ in the only thread in the entire forum that really allows for all 3 trilogies to be compared and ranked and criticized it only seemed fair to at least try to figure out where AOTC truly excels in comparison. The very notion of the topic essentially invites comparison between the films via rankings and that has already lead to other discussions and comparisons in this thread before. I was just continuing that already established process with some specifics to better rank these films. The people who hate TLJ regularly place it worst so it’s a comparison of the two to determine where one excelled over the other or not.

 

I too prefer AOTC, by a very wide margin. Among other reasons I find the characters are more interesting, my emotional response to those characters is much greater, the SF world design far more impressive, and the visuals a brilliant mix of lived-in reality and painterly exoticism.

If one finds this view offensive, I recommend just trying to see a fellow fan who likes something different. I don't really care for TLJ, but I'm fine with others who love it.

 

IMO AOTC excels FOR ME in regards to one comparison between Anakin and Kylo. I only have a few moments to spare so this is going to be a short summary of how I feel.

The ST films have given ME NO reason to have any empathy for Kylo. At this point I keep being spoon fed either dialog or snippets from interviews on how Kylo is supposed to be viewed according to RJ.

Parental neglect is his motivation? Not shown, just told from an Adam Driver interview. (Also not backed up by the novel Bloodline.) Told again when he says to Rey "Han Solo would have just disappointed you."

Mad about not learning the secret of Vader being his grandpa when he felt like he deserved to know? Bratty entitlement, especially considering the explanation given in the novels. Leia kept it from him because she was afraid of his already growing inclinations towards the dark side. And the novel explains that Leia DID try to send him a message regarding this secret but was unsure whether he ever received it or not because she wasn't totally sure on where he and Luke were at the time.

Snoke manipulations- nope, doesn't fly because Anakin was also being manipulated by a dark side user.

He thought his uncle was going to kill him? Luke got caught in his moment of weakness but then Kylo kills Luke's other padawans who were not the Knights of Ren and destroys the academy.

None of this has the same emotional weight that made my heart break for Anakin as I watched him hold his dying mother in his arms in AOTC. RJ wants us to see Ren as sympathetic and relatable but TLJ didn't give me a reason to.

 

You may find mysticism all over the PT. That's the difference. Then came TLJ and everything is resolved (like it or not) with two scenes. End.
But beside that... what is the answer? Why rey from nowhere has been sent there, etc...?
Is there any answer?

Beside that there are people who loved the TLJ and that believe that the point is that Poe is a villain
or someone not capable of leading the Resistance.... meaning that, Jhonson failed.
If we aknowledge that the context is different, then I'll say all over the ep. II when it comes to Obi Wan and Anakin.
Every time Obi Wan, Yoda, and Mace Windu speak about Anakin.
Even more so, when we compare those conversations to what Sidius is already trying to do with him (manipulating).
In the conversations between Anakin and Padme.
Before leaving and on Naboo (two times: when she interrupts him in front of the Queen and later on when they talk about democracy).
And so on.
This is character building. Not a slap in the face.

That said... talking about complex plot, I was thinking about Dooku, how he is introduced
by the Jedi talking about him as an idealist. Someone one may trust.
Then the movie goes on and they find out half of the truth.
Because at the end of the movie, it's made clear that Dooku is manipulating both the Jedi
and the Trade Federation, together with Sidius.
That is complex... but logic.
And it has deapth. Because good-guys are played (two times and the last one is the bigger one)
Even tho they are doing what they are doing for a greater good.
But so are the bad-guys, those Sidius will kill at the end of 3.

You mean the reboot of the Couruscant's bar where Obi Wan and Anakin catch the shape-shifter?
And beside that... there's anything else in TLJ comparable to Courscant? Is there something that visually we may compare to
the Jedi Temple and its library? Visually. Because - talking about reboot- yes... the Island and a tree...
There is something we may compare to Naboo, Kamino and Geonosis? Because I didn't see it.
Not to mention the Trade Federation and the Separatist meeting with Dooku
if you wish for some diversity, for some aliens and droids with a lot money seeking for war... there you've got them.

I can go on... but the thing is...
You talk mainly about "moments"
What moment does that? what moment did that? etc...

And that is exactly why someone like me, may prefer AOTC.

Because I don't care at all about moments.
I don't care at all about a twists driven plot like that of TLJ is.
So much so I dind't feel any "drama".
To me that was a movie without drama but the Luke vs Kylo duel.

All the rest is... twist for the sake of it.
It's not drama the revelation of who Rey parents are.
It's a reboot of the ep.7 scene between her and Maz.
The difference is that Maz tried to push her to embrace the light...etc...
Meaning that Rey - your main character - had not growth in this movie.
She ends where she ended 7.

It's not drama Snoke's death.
Let me arrive in that room knowing something more about Kylo's mind and plan
(because it's not that he decides in that moment what to do... he already did, as it's made
obvious - enven tho it's subtle - by the elevator scene)
and I would have love it. Just like I love the finale of the Goodfather... to make another
comparison. You know that Michael and his father have a plan... but you don't know what
it is. You may even think he's a fool. But then when everything happens... it's an all time
masterpeace. And a the greatest rise of a villain ever seen.

I would have love to go deep in Kylo's psycology... but for real.
And no matter what people say, to me, we don't.
It's a sequences of moments that have to save the twist. .

And to me - it's not a sequences of scenes and moments that make a good movie.
Nor a single scene - that I didn't expected or that I wished to see.

And it's not that I don't like Luke's arc....
It's that again... it's a moment. Of weakeness.
I don't buy it as good storytelling if that is the only reason you may give me.
I need reasons to believe that Luke Skywalker may come to coclusion, even if for a second, that
killing his nephew while sleeping may be a good idea.
I don't buy it as a good storytelling... if you tell me, it was a moment.
I see it as lack of arguments, of better ideas...
As it is. Because Luke didn't need that to face failure.
It's that the plot needed to put Rey on the Supremacy and you didn't know how to do it elseway.
That is the real reason for that scene to existe.

And I care about Luke and Leia, because of the OT. Not because of that single scene.
That makes the scene moving. Not the TLJ. The building up made in 3-4 movies.

That is the key, to me...
I dind't get any sense of building up...

 

AOTC had Coruscant as a whole, Palpatine as a master manipulator, Across the Stars, the seismic charges, Geonosis, Kamino, the Execution Arena, the Reek, Nexu and Axley, Yoda using the Force and a lightsaber, Anakin attempting to use 2 lightsabers, Christopher Lee as Count Dooku, the Separatist Council, the Jedi Army rescuing Obi-Wan and friends, that Super Battle Droid shoving the Battle Droid out of the way, the Geonosian sonic weapons, Obi-Wan inspecting the clones in formation. The music playing as well. Palpatine inspecting the clones at the end of the movie, Bail resignedly banging his fist, Love Theme and the Arena, the Battle of Geonosis, the sequence after the Clones shot down one of the TF Spheres and kicked up sand, the firefight was amazing, Etc.

 

I do think TLJ is a better movie than AOTC if that's the question. I don't know if I can make a good argument because it would be too subjective. The prequels are simply rather unbearable to me, and AOTC might be my least favorite of all Star Wars movies. I don't know if I can venture out of "don't like it" territory into trying to make an argument that seems to at least resemble something more objective. I might even have to watch AOTC again because it's the movie I've watched the least and isn't as fresh in memory as any of the others. With the PT I kind of cringe at the dialogue and stilted acting and hide my head in my hands and long for longer, deeper, more psychological conversations. Though I long for longer, deeper more psychological conversations in TLJ as well (and TFA), but it's not to the extent of AOTC. I'm not sure why the OT conversations seem fulfilling enough to me, usually (in comparison).

I guess I could compare/contrast the believably of Padme/Anakin and Rey/Kylo? But I don't know if I have it in me right now.

 

I've yet to hear an argument about why TLJ (or TFA either for that matter) is terrible that couldn't also be applied to the prequels. The fact that such arguments come from die-hard prequelists makes them amusing to read.

 

Yeah. It's hilarious to watch PT fans lambast the ST for things the PT got crucified for.

 

Arguments like this are inherently subjective.

I've yet to hear an argument about why the prequels are terrible that couldn't also be applied to the originals or sequels. But that's just my subjective view, and mocking people for their film preferences just seems petty.

I'll hate the ST all I like, but it's fans are perfectly in their right to enjoy it, the way I enjoy the PT.

 

I always did prefer AOTC to TPM so it was never the worst of the prequels for me. To be honest, I always liked it okay, especially after TPM. Do I personally rank it above TLJ? Yes. Because TLJ is the only Star Wars movie that made me both angry and depressed. Even TPM never made me feel remotely like that.

Thus, it is hard ro even try a rational analysis of each movie, leaving my feelings out of it. I will say that in AOTC a lot of the middle part bored me but I had the same problem in TLJ. The chase scene and Canto Bight stuff really bored me. So, comparing the basic plots of either, I`m not a fan of either movie.

Visually, well, the prequels all are overburdened with CGI whereas I believe the cinematogrophy in TLJ is far better. Though AOTC does have some beautiful vistas in Italy.

Comparing acting is a bit unfair to me because if you bury less experienced actors with certain scenes and dialogue, they can`t fight their way out of it. I thought Adam Driver`s portrayal was masterful but I equally believe he couldn`t make "I hate sand" work if it was given to him. And Natalie Portman is an accomplished actress, she was just lost there. Daisy Ridley would have been even more lost in the material. Ewan McGregor shining as much as he did with the material given on sheer charisma alone gains a lot of points for the acting side. Dialogue-wise, TLJ is better. George`s strength has never been dialogue.

World-building is miles better in any of the PT in terms of establishing a vast galaxy and the political realities. TLJ (just like TFA) barely skims the surface.

So in technical categories I could award both movies their respective points. Which again leaves me with my above-stated emotional reaction.

 

When the concept artists are the best part of any film you didn't make the beautiful romantic drama needed to enrich the end of ROTJ the way it could have been had that romantic drama been truly beautiful and well-acted. You cheapen it with visions of sand talk and haunted kiss lines that you never had in your mind before when seeing Annie and Luke smiling at each other. You don't make efficient use of your remaining running time in the entire PT to really setup Annie as the greatest villain of all time. Instead, you put way too much pressure on most of that to occur in ROTS, making the transition feel far more like a robot body guard who'd just been set to "bad mode" because he believes in some process to save Padme's life that's never explained at all. When you setup the mystery of the clones around Boba Fett's dad's DNA for fan service reasons, and then put the whole mystery on Sifo-Dyas, and expect fans to believe that this entire operation was paid for up front somehow and ongoing for years with none of this leaking out from anyone else who does business with the Kaminoans, and none of them ever checking in, or updating their greatest clients, and invent a situation where an entire army can be explained that easily you just introduced the largest plot contrivance in Star Wars history and pinned it all on somebody the audience doesn't know about or care about. That's not great mystery writing. That's something out of tween fan fiction. When you combine all of these things with dialogue and acting well below even made for TV movie standards, including some moments that aren't all that out of step with Tommy Wiseau's dialogue or acting in The Room you just haven't made a compelling feature film drama. You made a concept art and CG demo reel from a script that feels like a Wookipedia entry more than a feature film screenplay with performances and dialogue well below not only the OT's standards but even some hallmark movie and video game cut screens. Nobody would greenlight AOTC as a script if you substituted out the familiar Star Wars names and looks for less known names or looks because the screenplay itself reads more like a Pop Up video "Did you know that this also happened prior to the OT" than a 3 act story.

 

Did the prequel defence force bat signal go up or something?

 

Well, AOTC was brought up, as apparently the previous 'consenus' worst SW movie, to compare with TLJ. Those who disagree with this, and don't agree that AOTC was bad, are saying as such.

If you brought up how this movie was better than ESB, would you not expect people to lay out their reasoning for why it wasn't?

Both would be rather useless at actually ranking TLJ.

Edit: Also I think it's just kind of... unfair... if that's the word, to start ragging on AOTC on the ST boards. People who want to discuss the PT, go to the PT boards. I don't go around trashing TLJ on the PT boards because it isn't the place for it, and ST fans wouldn't want to adequately respond without also disregarding what board they were on.

 

AOTC scratched the SW itch that TLJ didn't. I have issues with AOTC. Don't get me wrong, but I like it more than TLJ.
TLJ doesn't build on the ending from ROTJ imo,
I don't like Kylo, Rey or Luke in TLJ. Snoke died way too easily. And 3 visions on Ben and Luke, yet nothing on Snoke?
I don't like Snoke's throne Room.
Phasma and Hux were pathetic.
Heck, throw Poe in there as well. Didn't like him either.
Finn from his first scene in TLJ was just comic relief.
Rose was decent.
Crait and Ahch To were interesting.
Liked the Porgs and Crystal Foxes.
Canto Bight just didn't work for me.
Chewie, R2, and, C-3PO barely had anything to do.
The soundtrack is probably my least favorite of the Saga.
I'll wait until E9 before fully judging but I found this film lacking.