ST Rank the Last Jedi among the SW films

That is all absolutely fair. For all of us, I think.
That said, I worte you may tag me... because of your previous post.
It's just... when it seems that someone is talking about something I wrote, I'd like the conversation
to be addressed to me too. Only that.
Cheers

 

I appreciate the reply. Many of the moments you shared don’t have anywhere near the magic or emotion to them as my moments in TLJ do for me because of the poor acting and awful dialogue in AOTC that needs to be experienced to get there. The Jedi army arriving was — let’s just call it what it really was — fan service Deus Ex Machina and again more focused on showcasing ILM’s abilities than anything else. “Begun the clone wars have” feels like Yoda doing a time out and saying “Pssst. Remember how we referred to A Clone War in the first Star Wars film!? Well, this is the start of that guys. Okay. Resume movie.” Your points remind me of one of the bigger issues with the PT in general. Too much focus on simply bringing stuff we’d already known about in the EU, and that the general audience wouldn’t care about, to life to the detriment of story structure just to hamfist them in for us to see them on screen. It’s no wonder PT fans are the most pissed about the lack of backstory on Snoke or Rey so far. AOTC was focused more on explaining how just about everything came to be than it was making a 3 act structure of merit strong enough and compelling enough that it could have survived as a story with each of the names and Star Wars references changed. If they had done that simple excercise and had someone who writes screenplays — anyone — read it that person would ask, “Why are you going into so much detail to this? Why do I need to know about that? What are you trying to say here? How about you dial back some of these details and focus more on exploration of the themes and the primary story you think would hook someone new here? Also, this dialogue needs a lot of work.” The real reason it’s a mess is because he wrote himself into a trap of having to setup so many things quickly while still allowing for all the good stuff in ROTS (easily the best prequel). If TPM had featured more aspects of AOTC going on in the background as subplots some of ROTS could have been in AOTC. The desire to make a more self contained kids movie in TPM left too much heavy lifting to do in AOTC and ROTS and AOTC bares the weight of that challenge and succumbs to it. The clone wars setup with Sifo-Dias is really, really bad. It’s screenwriting 101 not to pin something as significant as the creation of a gigantic clone army with full armor and weaponry and special mind control instructions to kill all Jedi the moment the words “Execute Order 66” is said on someone no longer alive, not known, and whose entire history will have to be spelled out off screen somewhere while constantly referring to him as though there may be some surprise of meeting him that never comes. The clone wars coming from Jango Fett and the Jedi all being killed from Order 66 feels incredibly contrived. Like he realized he had 2.5 hours to explain everything significant prior to ANH and just took the quickest solution in his mind to killing 3 birds with one stone when something as big as that should have been spread out more and something more complex than Order 66 should have been the reason for the Jedi’s fall.

Thankfully, ROTS makes up for it and is much, much, much better.

 

All over the movie I'd say. The combination of acting quality, believable well-written dialogue, and emotional weight is strong in AOTC and not near as strong in TLJ by comparison. AOTC works in the world of Lucas over 6 films while TLJ is not only out of step with those movies but even more bizarrely much of TFA as well.

This really isn't the place for an exhaustive list. A lot of points don't really seem to apply anyway:

1) Where in AOTC is there the quiet mysticism and intamacy of Luke asking Rey of Nowhere why SHE of all people was sent to Ahch-To in the birthplace of the Jedi Order itself that contains the ancient Jedi texts?

Luke and Rey aren't in AOTC so that doesn't apply. Same for many other points. One can do a AOTC list of points that don't apply to TLJ.

4) Which setting in AOTC has the lived in visual spendor and plethora of practical effects that bring the introduction of the Canto Bight casino and its inhabitants to life.

All of them. Coruscant, Kamino, Geonosis and Naboo. The prequels are THE practical effects extravaganzas of Star Wars. Nothing else compares.

11) What exchange between Padme and Anakin in AOTC is better acted than when Rey is recounting her cave vision to Kylo Ren?

Every single one of importance I'd say.

12) Find me one moment in AOTC as gut-wrenching as seeing Luke Skywalker heart-broken over the sight of Ben Solo corrupting yet another student and that student immediately channeling Dark Side anger to fight him unarmed and then having him admit that the Dark Side moment he suffered in ROTJ wasn't his last?

Anakin over Shmi of course. Total no-contest because the story is supported and the characters are known.

13) What moment in AOTC compares with seeing Rey and Kylo Ren side by side discussing a future that only they know with each believing the other will turn when the moment comes?

Again a moment so specific that it has to be compared to something like Luke and Vader.

14) What moment in AOTC tops seeing Yoda for the first time in 30 years of chronological saga time on screen again and providing the best wisdom and life lessons he's ever given on screen since TESB to Luke again?

Yoda vs Dooku of course and so many others.

18) What in AOTC is more captivating than when Ben Solo stares as the throne and realizes he's finally done what he set out to do and asks Rey to be the person he enjoys his riches with?

19) What is more emotionally satisfying in AOTC than seeing Luke atone to Leia and have his apology accepted and them share one final kiss knowing that had that moment never happened then and there it never would have happened again?

What captivates and satisfies people emotionally are extremely subjective things. Clearly TLJ is a movie like TFA that is very concerned with presenting "emotional" moments that are very well crafted and are done in a way that is of more importance than character, story, world building, galactic scale etc etc. Things shift from scene to scene as needed. Ren becomes a together villain to dispatch Snoke then totally falls apart again. Does anything effect Rey for more than a scene or two? Anakin's go through movies and can all be traced back in clear lines. Rey and Ren can be anything you want in any scene at any time.

I can tell you that I find AOTC extremely emotional and captivating throughout because of a combination and appreciation of all of these things. I love Anakin and Obi-Wan's master student relationship. Their friendship through the movie. Does TLJ do anything like that? No. So there is no comparison. The romance of Anakin and Padme is terrifically done. I feel for the characters and the performances and dialogue are right on. HC gives possibly THE best performance in all of Star Wars in AOTC. The layers of the character, his journey and scene after scene are thrilling to me. Not much in TLJ comes to that level because the necessary story support isn't there.

I'll agree with that one (for AOTC)

It's sets up the entire downfall in ROTS. TLJ sets up what exactly? Whatever JJ wants it to.

 

The only aspect of my questions that I regret is the wording of my Canto Bight question. Most of AOTC's settings to me do not feel as organic to me as Canto Bight does. I've watched the behind the scenes reels for AOTC so I'm ware that many of the indoor settings do contain real objects and that only the windows and a few other details are composited in. It's more the exterior settings I was getting at which feel very CG and video-game like to me in AOTC.

That said, it is an older film obviously and it's true that the concept art and scale of the settings in AOTC are arguably the biggest strength of the entire film so I feel like I just handed all of the biggest PT fans, who love it even more than the OT, a weapon by writing that. Fair play. It was the combination of sets and costumes and makeup and prosthetics and designs of the Canto Bight police uniforms and their speeders and the modernized touches added to Dubrovnik, and the wide shot vistas of the city and the practical effects yaught and everyone on it going over the waterfall that made me feel like Rian Johnson out-prequeled TPM and AOTC's biggest strengths there.

That aspect is so subjective though so as to be pointless to the overall discussion so I'll concede that point even though I do believe Canto Bight and everything I just mentioned sort of beats one of the primary PT's strengths at its own game.

 

There's a longstanding rule that PT vs. ST arguments are off-limits in this forum. "Rank The Last Jedi" means just that, not get into a bashfest regarding TLJ vs. AOTC.

Anymore of this TLJ vs. AOTC argument will result in bans.

 

TLJ is probably my #4.

 

woops, didnt see warning

 

I ranked it last. It's an OK movie but for me it's a terrible Star Wars movie while every movie has its flaws, this is the first time I've ever finished a Star Wars movie and not really cared about what might happen next.

 

Top tier for me.

Tier 1 - EPIC: TLJ, ANH,TESB and R1
Tier 2 - Awesome: TFA, RotJ and RotS
Tier 3 - Excellent: AotC and TPM

 

removed - gratuitous bashing.

/heels

 

removed - gratuitous bashing.

/heels

 

Haven't tried the whole Tier-ranking, but after 5 viewings, TLJ would most definitely end up in my first Tier as well.

 

removed - gratuitous bashing.

/heels

 

Tier 1 : TLJ , ROTS , TESB , ROTJ ( Perfect )

Tier 2 : R1 , TFA , ANH ( Minor Issues )

Tier 3 : TPM , AOTC ( Issues )

 

After now seeing TLJ three times (once at home) and watching a few scenes multiple times (Crait confrontation, Yoda, Luke's Island lessons), I've confirmed my personal rankings of where this one fits in:

I. TESB
II. ANH
III. TLJ
IV. TFA
V. ROTJ
VI. ROTS
VII. AOTC
VIII. TPM

 

TLJ is the first saga film I don't intend to buy a copy.
I have two VHS versions of the OT, the DVD of the whole saga (1-6) and the Blueray. Also Bray for EPVII and RO.

But I won't get TLJ.

 

Good to see TLJ has 148 votes for people ranking it 1-4

 

I originally ranked it 4th but after seeing it a few more times I've moved it up to 3rd, maybe 2nd.

 

I put it at the bottom. I care about lore most of all.

 

I'll probably just use tiers starting with the release of Solo, but with now four viewings, I picked 2nd for TLJ. On one hand, I noticed more small things this time around; on the other, I'm as impressed as ever at how rich and grand the film is.

 

1. TESB
2. ANH
3. ROTJ
4. TLJ
5. TFA
6. RO
7. AOTC
8. TPM
9. ROTS

 

The Empire Strikes Back
Star Wars
Return of the Jedi
Rogue One
The Last Jedi
The Force Awakens
Rebels (animated tv show)
Ewoks (animated tv show)
Star Wars Holiday Special
Caravan of Courage (Ewoks tv movie)
The Battle for Endor (Ewoks tv movie)
The Clone Wars (animated tv series)
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
Droids (animated tv show)
Star Wars: The Clone Wars (animated movie)
Clone Wars (animated series)

 

Although there have been star wars films that I don't think were good, TLJ is the first one that doesn't work as a film, much less a star wars film. Thats basically the only reason i'd rank it at the bottom for me. TPM and AOTC were bad films, but there are still things about them that really work and are entertaining. Before TFA came out, I rewatched the PT and OT. To my surprise, I found myself enjoying the PT. I think some of my biggest issues were the art direction. TLJ is the first star wars film that I actually do not care to watch multiple times. Thats just never happened for me. Its also the first one where I was totally apathetic towards the story by movie's end. Thats why I scored it below all the rest. Obviously that ewok film is not on the list. I still think ESB is the best constructed star wars film. It is also a wonderful anchor that holds the story of the OT together.

 

See my sig. I've watched it twice since getting it Tuesday, and I just can't get it out of my mind. Aside from how much I wish Luke was using his green lightsaber at the end (because the blue one told me something was amiss,) it's just absolutely perfect. I cannot wait for Rian's trilogy.