Rankings for 2010-11 NFL Head Coaches

Discussion in 'Archive: The Arena' started by JediMaster1511, Sep 5, 2010.

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  1. Grimby Technical Consultant

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    The point here isn't the criteria, the point is your questioning of why I provided those stats in the first place, which were before horsey's posting of the criteria that was used. I didn't say they didn't matter, I said they didn't matter other than to prove that the #4 guy on the list has had more success as an NFL head coach than the #3 guy on the list. You immediately posting "Then why bring it up, genius?" only proves that you didn't fully understand my point and that you might want to stop and think about what you're posting before you press that reply button.
  2. KenKenobi Force Ghost

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    Jul 11, 2002
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    Grimby, dude, you provided wrong stats in the first place, and ones that when used to compare Fisher and Shanahan are not only negligible, but that aren't "even a great stat" as I and others have said-- it's not just a numbers game, in fact coming back from 0-6 shows why he's such a great coach.

    You said "not that it matters" other than to prove Shanahan should be above Fisher. I assumed you were bringing it up just to say "Shanahan has better numbers than Fisher," having gotten the point that it's not just numbers, and knowing full well that relying on them solely would directly contradict what you were trying to say earlier-- that such stats show that Fisher shouldn't be "anywhere close to #3 on the list." In which case, why bring that up? Because when it comes to that, there's only 3 teams with more playoff appearances in the last 11 seasons than the Titans (Indy, NE, Philly), and only 2 active coaches ahead of him wins-wise, making him...number 3.
  3. DarthIntegral Force Ghost

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    Meh.

    I don't think there are many "great" coaches right now in the NFL. You can find a lot of warts on just about every coach. More than ever, I think winning teams happen more because of great GMs/personnel folks, rather than the coaches. And, I think getting the right mix of assistant coaches does more to determine success than the right head coach. The head coach anymore is a CEO.

    To me Belicheck is #1. There's a dozen or so guys who compete for #2.
  4. Grimby Technical Consultant

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    The only "wrong" stat I provided was that the Titans started 0-7 last season rather than 0-6. If we're getting nitpicky, the stats I provided regarding Shanahan were accurate, because I said "with Denver". I personally don't count Shanahan's 20 game stint as the Raiders head coach because the situation he was in was horrible and Al Davis fired him for trying to think for himself. Regardless, even counting his record with the Raiders, Shanahan's career win/loss record is still better than Fisher's, he has more playoff wins, and of course the two Super Bowl wins. The reason I said it doesn't matter much is because the list takes other intangibles into consideration.

    Anyway, the list obviously considers Fisher to be the better coach right now because of what he did last season compared to Shanahan taking a year off and being fired the season before (though, like I said, had Fisher been the coach of one of the higher profile teams, I doubt he'd have lasted half as long).

    The reason I think those two are so high on the list is because there aren't very many other head coaches with a whole lot of playoff success. It's interesting that a lot of these guys were chosen by their respective teams over coaches with much more experience and, in some cases, multiple Super Bowl appearances.
  5. JMJacenSolo Jedi Master

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    Reid is a great Monday-Saturday coach, he's just a horrendous gameday coach.

    I'd still take him over Phillips.
  6. s65horsey Otter-loving Former EUC Mod

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    I agree with this. When I first saw this article on Yahoo I thought, well that would make a great thread and I could dispute it. But then when I thought about it I was like, but who would I put where? After #1 its a lot of gray.
  7. KenKenobi Force Ghost

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    Not just the incorrect one (which also just wasn't a good point, failing to recognize the coaching prowess to still have them in playoff contention despite that start, as others have noted), but ones that when actually compared to Shanahan (playoff-to-seasons-coached record, number of subpar seasons) are negligible when adjusted for your "personal" omissions, and which do nothing other than-- as you said yourself-- "prove that the #4 guy on the list has had more success than the #3 guy on the list."

    In which case, again, why bring that up? You weren't trying to say that (you didn't even agree with Shanahan being that high), you were bringing up numbers trying to say Fisher shouldn't be near number 3. When the fact is, if you look at just the numbers-- in which case not "personally" counting something holds no weight-- then you may have an argument for Shanahan to move above Fisher, but it also solidifies Fisher at around 3 or 4...a far cry from your claim that "with those numbers [he] shouldn't be anywhere close to #3."

    It's not like there's an objective formula or something though, so I guess put Fisher wherever you want. You should factor in his humor though, the Manning jersey thing was pretty funny.

    Yeah this is evident with Parcells and the Dolphins (of course Sparano's done great for him too). It also gives Cleveland hope with Holmgren. If you ignore that it's Cleveland.
  8. Grimby Technical Consultant

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    I did recognize that. But do you recall how wide open the AFC playoff race was? Going into week 17, 4 AFC teams had clinched and there were 7 other teams that had a chance to clinch a Wild Card spot. That means only 5 AFC teams were out of the playoffs at that point (including the Titans). It's great that they finished the season 8-2, but saying they were an AFC team in playoff contention really isn't saying much.


    Because a guy with two Super Bowl wins, more playoff wins, and more career wins is lower on the list. Considering the top two coaches both have Super Bowl wins, it stands to reason that that actually mattered in their considerations. Why else would Sean Payton be #2? Ken Whisenhunt is pretty comparable as far as turning a perennial loser into a Super Bowl contender, but yet he's down at #7.
  9. The Great No One Force Ghost

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    maybe it's got something to do with the fact that shanny's sucked other than when he had elway?
  10. Grimby Technical Consultant

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    Only if you consider making the playoffs 4 times including a trip to the AFC Championship game to be "sucking".
  11. The Great No One Force Ghost

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    all i know is that the last few years he was there they turned into a clone of the early manning colts, without as much talent. all offense with a paper mache defense. that is not good coaching.


    and i seem to remember him once saying that his goal was to be able to beat the colts, and was what he was trying to design a team that could do. that really didn't work out very well either. (might be wrong, but i know i heard something of the sort somewhere, just might not have been related to him.)
  12. Grimby Technical Consultant

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    No, you're right, that's pretty much what he said. It was after getting blown out by the Colts in the playoffs two years in a row. It's the reason why he traded for Champ Bailey and brought in John Lynch. He also signed a lot of other high-priced free agents to try and make the front seven better, but none of them worked out.
  13. JediCouncilMember Jedi Master

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    This.
    I don't think there are that many great coaches. I think Payton is the best right now and not just b/c of the SB win. Just how he's built the Saints. Took a chance on Brees, who went from getting the boot in SD to being in the top 1-2 of QBs. And the Saints rarely seem unprepared for a game, and can't think of any real clock management issues.

    Reid has clock management issues.
    Not sure why Rex Ryan is so high. They backed into 9-7 cause the Colts and Cincy gave them wins, made the most of it in the playoffs of course but we'll see this year.
    Not sure why Caldwell is so high at 12??? I'm pretty sure I could coach Manning to 12-4 from my couch. The only decision he made was to give up a perfect season and then not win the SB. I think a top 5 coach plays for 19-0. Just my opinion there.
    Childress. Yikes! Shouldn't be in the top 25.

    I like MccCarthy he could probably be top 10, same with Sparano given the state of Mia when he took over.
    Why are Schwartz and Spagnuolo so low??? They were given horrible teams!!! I really like what Schwartz is doing so far, Det will not be a pushover, but still have D issues outside of Suh.

    As for Fisher and Shanahan, I can see both in the top 10, not sure where they'd fit exactly.
  14. The Great No One Force Ghost

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    that's what i thought. it's also pretty directly what led to his being fired wasn't it? since the team also couldn't beat a lot of others as a result of that. i think it's just kinda stupid to focus on one team specifically. you build the best team that fits your strategy that you can, and take that as far as you can. aiming for one team is just not going to get it done. to me that is the mark of a bad coach, if you focus on one team that isn't even in your division.
  15. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

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    Ryan is probably high because he took a team that was "lucky" to be in the playoffs and took them to the AFC Championship, a game they led at halftime, which doesn't matter because they lost.(broke my heart)
  16. The Great No One Force Ghost

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    i think the colts actually played better than they did under dungy, which is saying something. caldwell took what dungy did, tweaked it and won a few games because of that difference. and they aren't really ever unprepared, on either side of the ball. he's a good coach.
  17. Grimby Technical Consultant

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    The ironic thing is that Gruden pretty much did the same thing with the Bucs after Dungy left.

    Well I wouldn't go so far as to say the only team Shanahan cared about beating was the Colts. I just think he knew if he wanted to get back to the Super Bowl he was going to have to beat the Colts, and he knew they had his number. The Broncos actually had pretty good defenses until Al Wilson's last season in 2006, but it was a pretty huge drop off after that.
  18. The Great No One Force Ghost

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    yea, that is true. i suppose the real question will be whether the team regresses this year at all or not. not that i'm really expecting another 14-0 start, that'd be ridiculous. but i figure 11-12 wins is probably in the cards if like i think he actually is a pretty good coach.
  19. KenKenobi Force Ghost

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    Well it is when you're trying to saying starting off 0-6 is grounds for someone not being ranked as high (especially considering the importance you placed on .500 and playoffs in following statements). If you did recognize the coaching skill involved (and there was certainly skill involved regardless of the AFC race, this was a team that was counted out before its bye week and ended up in the fight), you probably should've factored that in when wondering why he'd be ranked so high despite that start.

    If you want to mention this Super Bowl thing against Fisher now, cool whatever. I never took issue with your own rank of Fisher-- especially since it's all kind of subjective anyway-- I was simply pointing out that the numbers you provided weren't great (even wrong and "personally" edited in some cases), and when you admitted that they only served to show Shanahan has better numbers Fisher, I asked why bring that up when they also solidify Fisher near the top, and clearly reveal the flaws in your original claim that "with those numbers [he] shouldn't be anywhere close to #3."

    Anyway, I like Whisenhunt in the top 10, but he's gonna have quite a test this year-- especially against Singletary, who I think may make a case for himself to be higher.

    lol, it's true

    Yeah I'd agree, he really made them believe they could do anything and it showed in the playoffs. I loved how he took the Pats head on too, though this season there's even more of that hype to back up.
  20. Grimby Technical Consultant

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    I don't know if you noticed this, but my initial impressions of the list weren't based off of what these coaches did last year or the year before, which is why I said Fisher shouldn't be anywhere near #3. The criteria has since been clarified and I'm more inclined to agree with his high ranking, especially after considering the other current head coaches in the league and their lack of head coaching experience (or success).

    You're beating a dead horse here, Ken. When you look at the top 5 coaches on this list, the initial reaction is to wonder why guys with more playoff success like Shanahan and Reid are ranked lower than guys like Payton and Fisher. Again, the criteria has since been clarified.

    And seriously, if my posting of one incorrect stat and omitting Shanahan's 1 1/4 seasons with the Raiders really bothers you that much, why don't you take it to PM rather than dragging this thread down any further.
  21. KenKenobi Force Ghost

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    Perhaps you weren't being entirely serious with additional mention of the Manning jersey, but still. That aside, I wouldn't have to commit equine abuse if the explanation for my question had gotten through earlier, but glad to see it's been clarified and not an issue with the criteria now revealed. Regardless, judging by the rest of the discussion in the thread I don't think our conversation necessarily "dragged down" anything.

    Speaking of initial impressions, when I first saw the list I wanted to say that Marvin Lewis should be rated higher, but on second thought I don't think he's all that terrible where he's at. Plus he did get Coach of the Year honors to recognize his ability to keep the Bengals together through that tough last season. This year will go a long way in determining if he can maintain the success of that last season...though I suppose that could pretty much apply to every coach.
  22. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

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    Jul 15, 2010
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    I agree, with the passing of Henry during the season, even though he was on IR, he was still friends with people on the team. To keep them from losing the will to play is a great feat.
  23. xblackout Force Ghost

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    Jun 5, 2008
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    Hey now. There's always hope in Cleveland. Just...not much more than that.
  24. JediMaster1511 Force Ghost

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    Yeah, when one of the frst things you say as a coach is "I'm not here to kiss the rings of Belichick," then you have to get points on that one.
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