Rapists, murderers, molesters, etc

And these are the same people all up in arms about how Fundamentalist Islamic countries treat their prisoners.

Who is the more "civilized country"

 

Edit: Nevermind.

You say that a lot.

 

Nobody is helping a rape victim by killing the rapist.

Castrating the SOB that did it would assure he would never have the desire to do it again. He lives, hes free, I dont believe in giving somebody umpteen chances to rape umpteen girls. You have a problem deal with it, and dont hand me this society failed them BS either. Society gives them ample opportunity to go see a psychatrists about their desires, do any of them go? For the most part NO!

And there are plenty of ways to prevent further crimes, without resorting to life imprisonment or capital punishment.

A slap on the wrist and a hug, wont do anything for them. Making pedophillia legal wont do anything but start a negative trend. Same as murder and rape, not good when your society allows this to happen. That society just committed suicide.

A great portion of them are probably pretty normal people who've just made an incredible mistake.

A mistake? A mistake? I cant believe you dismissed murder as a mistake. Burning dinner is a mistake, spilling milk is a mistake, forgetting to deposit your check is a mistake, murder is not a mistake. No and ifs or buts. There are accidental deaths, yes, but not accidental murders. You dont choke somebody to death or stab them a hundred times and tell the cops, It was just a mistake. The Gungans banned Jar Jar for being clumbsy, if people are killing people accidentally, we need to lock them away or send them to the moon or something, theyre a danger to society.

There is also temporary insanity (which is overly abused). There is self defense which one shouldnt be accountable for. But to say someone who kills just to steal or rape is temporarily insane or acting in self defense is rubbish, absolute non-sense. Would you feel safe with Charles Manson walking around your neighborhood?

Can any of you back up your "they all just kill again" rhetoric with some actual numbers?

Can you back up they wont with actual numbers?

And what would you describe murderers, rapists and child molestors as being?

We probably dont wanna know teebee, after all someone who see's them as not being sick is ......well.....sick.

And these are the same people all up in arms about how Fundamentalist Islamic countries treat their prisoners.

You fail to realize the difference? Good Golly Miss Molly, I hope youre not insulting anybody elses logic. There is a difference between someone defending their nation such as lets say a Navy Seal who falls out of a helicopter and is shot to death or a downed pilot who is beat black and blue than lets say a person who kills for the hell of it, a child molester and a rapists. There is also a difference between killing a serial killer such as Charles Manson and stoning an innocent 14 year old girl to death because of something her brother did. Do you not realize the difference?

Who is the more "civilized country"

Not one that can't tell the difference between punishing criminals and punishing innocents. At least we dont cut peoples hands off for stealing a loaf of bread.

 

But, it is possible (although rare) that a person in the U.S. can go to jail for LIFE without parole for stealing a loaf of bread if he is prosecuted under the "3rd strike" law. What about the punishment fitting the crime?

Also, Charles Manson (himself) never killed ANYONE.

 

I dont agree with everything, the punishment should indeed fit the crime. Stealing a loaf of bread, maybe a month in jail. Even that would seem harsh.

 

I also had a problem with Whimper's statement that A great portion of them are probably pretty normal people who've just made an incredible mistake.

Something as big as murder, IMO, cancels out all the 'normal' things about you. This is about as silly a statement as "He's a good husband...he only beat me bloody once."

 

Well I disagree right back with you. Your veneration of human life is commendable, but I don't think you've got things in any kind of objective perspective here. Someone does not "become something utterly not human" after they commit a murder. I stand by my above statement that murder is a mistake. I don't mean accident. I mean a regrettable choice.

Killing another human being is a terrible thing, and in no way should it be tolerated with out some kind of action from society. But all this "put them in a cage" or "criminals gave up their rights" bull is just as sickening in my eyes.

 

So, convicted murderers have long-distance calls, cable t.v., and eat well balanced meals while the innocent people they decided to kill are no longer on this earth. Sounds like a fair and just punishment to me.

 

"Also, Charles Manson (himself) never killed ANYONE"

Uh very bad example ferelwookie. Manson doesn't belong in society. Study his case file and you will see that this is simply someone you don't need walking around free. Locking him up and keeping him locked up is the best thing we did, and his crime fits his punishment.

If not why not go and ask Roman Polanski what he thinks.

The 3 strikes your out comparison works to a point. The idea of 3 strikes which I don't like at all, because someone stealing a loaf of bread doesn't deserve life in jail, EVEN THOUGH in jail he will have 3 square meals a day for the rest of his life, so maybe it wouldn't be a bad resolution. Think about that, but I think 3 strikes needs to just deal with crimes like felonies. If you commit 3 felonies then it's obvious your a career criminal and you have chosen the wrong path and rightfully so deserve to spend the rest of your life in prison. However 3 mistameanors should be treated like the offense and you give adaquate jail time for the ofense. However someone convicted of more than 3 robberies should get life.

Murder: Depending on the circumstances surrounding the murder warrents either life imprisonment without ever getting out. Or the death penalty. No questions asked that are the two options.

Rape: Death.

Molestation: Death.

Rape and Molestation is a crime which you know the person who did it will most likely do it again if they got out of prison or ever escaped. They are a true menace to society and whether or not they had a twisted childhood which made them are what they became has no bearing. What they did here in the now has bearing because they are still alive despite their terrible abusive past and someone's child is not. There is no justice in allowing that rapists or Molester live.

Can any of you who don't agree with the death penalty for rapists and molesters honestly try to convince a parent who has lost their child because of that see that killing the person responsible and not making them suffer is not the answer?

Sure it will not bring back their child but why does the person who committed the crime deserve to live any longer? That is not justice, since they still get to live out their days and grow old and eat 3 square meals a day and if their crazy will not have remorse for what they have done. Sorry but not only should those people be killed but should be inflicted with the worst possible death imaginable. I think the family of the victim should decide how they will die. That is true justice.

 

Pigfeet, are you willing to look at the psychological backgrounds of such criminals and understand why they did what they did, or is it an objective, "they did it and that's all there is to it"?

 

Uh very bad example ferelwookie. Manson doesn't belong in society.

I wasn't aware I was making an "example" there...I was only stating a FACT. Manson never murdered anyone, at least that the state could PROVE. I do agree, that he IS where he belongs though.

However someone convicted of more than 3 robberies should get life.


3 robberies of what dollar value? 3 robberies of 7-11 with no weapon totaling $150.00 deserves LIFE? Doesn't sound like the punishment fitting the crime to me.

Rape: Death. I dont totally agree. SOME rapists CAN be reformed (castration and jail time are fitting punishment IMO) and re-intergrated into society. "Serial" (unreformable) rapists should be put to death.

Molestation: Death. Assuming you mean child-molestation, I totally agree. It has been proven time and again (therapists and psychologists) that pedophiles simply are unreformable. This is probably the most heinous crime not involving death IMO. These men do not deserve to breathe the same air as the rest of us.

 

I thought three strikes only applied to felonies. I don't think stealing bread is a felony. I could be wrong though.

 

No. 3 Strikes does apply to petty crimes and misdemnors. You CAN go to jail for 25+ years if your 3rd offense is shoplifting for example.

Here's a student article about some cases of petty offenders locked up for years: link

 

"Pigfeet, are you willing to look at the psychological backgrounds of such criminals and understand why they did what they did, or is it an objective, "they did it and that's all there is to it"? "

Would I look at it? Sure I will, but it probably will not change my mind, but you never know. I've always believed that you must handle each case as one case, and not throw a typical crime like Robbery and treat each robbery case like every other. There is no such thing as a typical crime. Their are trendy crimes but no two crimes are going to be done in the same fashion. The methods might be similar but the location, victim and other things will not be the same.

However if you have a someone who has been treated like crap all his or her life and was sexually and mentally abused for the first 12 years of life, and then they mold themselves into a vicious killer is a terrible thing. However why should an entire family suffer and not get justice or the JUSTIC they want because this person who killed their son or daughter had a rough life? The chances of that person who has been abused for that long to snap out of it, and become normal is slim to none. By killing or making sure they never walk in society ever again is not only doing a service to the community but to that person as well. They can't and will not show love for their fellow man because they see people as hostile and dangerous etc.... You can't fix that. In a way they are ruined as a person. If I could and if you could go back and save them from that torture that happened to them early in life I would. What I will not do is not allow is justice not to be served. No matter what happens to you in your past which shapes you in becoming what you become gives you no excuse to harm or take the life of another human being.

If that kind of defense worked then people wouldn't be responsible for any of their actions. Just because FSU lost to Miami last week by missing another daggum kick and I got very depressed and upset about it, doesn't give me the right to go across the street and knock the tar out of someone because I was angry over a football game. Then go to court and have the court rule that I'm not responsible because the judge agreed that the game was a shocker and that I was temporarly insane and so please don't break another person's jar.

I know that is a silly defense or example, but it's a true story. Last weekened I could have easily murdered someone after that game, because of how angry I was. When FSU loses it feels like someone in my family has just died. That doesn't give me an excuse to go and beat the tar out of someone and get off of it because I was upset or I had a bad day.

People no matter if their are sane or not need to be held accountable for their actions,and if our society has become so laxed on this then watch out. We are in for some future problems.

 

When I said I was scared before, it's exactly because of this "Eye for an eye" definition of justice. Justice doesn't mean levelling the scales. Justice doesn't mean 'pain deserved for pain dealt'. Justice doesn't mean "Family gets revenge". All of those definitions are being said again and again in this thread, and that's what scares me.

Justice shouldn't be dealt out from grief, or anger, or disgust. I believe that 'justice' means the solution that is best for society- and I don't believe that bringing more fear, pain, and death into the world is ever the best solution.

Of course I don't think justice means "free cable tv and a beer" either- but I totally don't believe in locking someone up for a certain amount of time to "atone" for their crime. Atonement as a philosophy is flawed anyways, rooted in the biblical notion of sin, and in Christian traditions about the clearing of debt. Atonement has no place in a justice system.

People should be locked up to keep society safe, not as punishment.

 

There's no such thing as an eye for an eye when it comes to rape or even molestation. Castration, prison time, the death penalty - none of these things are scaled punishments. Rape puts the fear of living into the victim. The death penalty is a cop out - killing the rapist is probably one of the nicest things you can do to them. It's a shame that there is no fit punishment that enables a rapist to feel that fear and loss of control that the victim will have to live with for the rest of their lives.

Child molesters should be locked away for life - evidence shows that the majority of them reoffend and so they are a danger to society.

Murderers - 20 years to life depending on the crime. A one of crime of passion does not deserve the same punishment as a pathological serial killer.

 

Atonement as a philosophy is flawed anyways, rooted in the biblical notion of sin, and in Christian traditions about the clearing of debt. Atonement has no place in a justice system.

All of our laws and statutes essentially come from the book of Exodus in the Old Testament and Roman law. All of these laws (even seemingly pointless one's like sodomy) come from BIBLICAL law. So, we adapt all of these rules (some outdated) and laws, but DON'T included atonement for the errors of one's ways?? Sounds like Americans having their cake and eating it too, again.

(I'm agnostic BTW, if that matters.)

 

WEll I'm going to look at this slightly from a legal perspective.
There are 2 elements to a crime Actus Reus(the guy did what accused of) and mens rea(intended to do it).
So if someone has a mental disability or psychological disorder they may not have had the neccessary intention to commit the crime and therefore should be acquitted.

However if someone commits murder and shows no remorce for what they did they should be given the death sentence(even though they don't have it in my country).

Now child molestors and rapists if convicted should ot be given life sentences because they will be beaten p and raped themselves in prison due to even the hardened murderer believing that these crimes are ghastly.